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Discussion Starter #1

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Been around.... I shipped one to Moscow Russia about a month ago for a customer over there (yes there are Mustangs in Russia).

I have one on my 2001 Z28, had one on my 2007... will have one on my 2011. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #5
How well would this work for a street/occasional auto cross or open track event car?

Barry
 

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How well would this work for a street/occasional auto cross or open track event car?

Barry
The frame is no issue... stands up to all the abuse I toss at it on R-comps with high loads and transition rates.... curb hopping too when I'm tracking.

Works great on the street too. I have a lot of S197 and F-body customers with 'em installed.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
So would you prefer the watts link setup or the going the torque arm route?

Barry
 

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They serve different functions. With a watts you still need a TA or a 3-link.
CSG, which TA or 3-link are you using? Sway bars? Looks like these would not play well with MM stuff since all of the above take up a small amount of space on the axle tubes at some of their mounting points.
 

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I have the EVM 3-link. I believe the MM T-arm would work and a Griggs would work. Because of other custom stuff I have I did have to modify the watts axle mount on the passenger side. I currently have a stock v8 fox rear bar. In the future I plan on looking into using a MM rear bar but I will have to fab new mounts which will mount both the watts and the bar as the mounts occupy the same space.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
They serve different functions. With a watts you still need a TA or a 3-link.
Gotchya..the Watts Link is similar in function to a panhard bar. That explains why I still saw the upper control arms in place. Slowly learning....

I lucked up on a copy of the Mustang handbook Vol 2 so hopefully I can learn some more.


Barry
 

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Gotchya..the Watts Link is similar in function to a panhard bar.
Identical in function to a Panhard bar.

The differences between a Panhard bar and a Watts Link are:

  1. The Watts Link is more expensive (more components and usually a fabricated subframe.)
  2. The Watts Link is heavier (the subframe.)
  3. The Watts Link allows zero lateral movement as the suspension cycles. The Panhard bar allows come lateral movement. How much is determined by the length of the bar. The longer the bar the less lateral movement.
  4. The Watts Link can be packaged into a narrow chassis with no negative effect. (See #3).
Personally, at the level of tune 99% of track drive Mustangs are, the slight lateral movement a Panhard bar allows isn't a problem at all and the added weight and cost of a Watts (not to mention packaging considerations -- the Watts often interferes with sway bars and fuel cells,) don't justify the small theoretical benefits.

All this changes with a highly-tuned race car with a decently stiff chassis and unforgiving bias-ply racing tires. In other words, if I'm building a nationally-competitive AI or AIX car, I'll have a Watts, otherwise, I'm going to save a few hundred and install a Panhard Bar.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Identical in function to a Panhard bar.

The differences between a Panhard bar and a Watts Link are:

  1. The Watts Link is more expensive (more components and usually a fabricated subframe.)
  2. The Watts Link is heavier (the subframe.)
  3. The Watts Link allows zero lateral movement as the suspension cycles. The Panhard bar allows come lateral movement. How much is determined by the length of the bar. The longer the bar the less lateral movement.
  4. The Watts Link can be packaged into a narrow chassis with no negative effect. (See #3).
Personally, at the level of tune 99% of track drive Mustangs are, the slight lateral movement a Panhard bar allows isn't a problem at all and the added weight and cost of a Watts (not to mention packaging considerations -- the Watts often interferes with sway bars and fuel cells,) don't justify the small theoretical benefits.

All this changes with a highly-tuned race car with a decently stiff chassis and unforgiving bias-ply racing tires. In other words, if I'm building a nationally-competitive AI or AIX car, I'll have a Watts, otherwise, I'm going to save a few hundred and install a Panhard Bar.
Had this exact conversation with a guy at work. Seems to me for my use, a panhard bar will do what I need it to do. I am definitely not a full on racer, but I would like to get rid of the unpredictable nature of the rear end.

Barry
 

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I agree with Robert and your friend as well. You can find alot of people who switched from a panhard bar to a watts & claim a big improvement. Personally, I believe this to be the placebo effect. I bought the watts because it required the least amount of fabrication to make work on my 87 coupe that I originally purchased it for. that car has alot of fab work that is in the way of the panhard mounting points. I also like the watts just because it is different, but you will pay more just to be "different".
 

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Have you guys run a Watts link? I have, and it's not placebo effect. Easy to say if you've not tried yourself.

I find it sad, very sad that this is the attitude and assumption. The fact is Watts links aren't new, and are VERY well proven from everything from Crown Vics to Australian V8 Supercars. And last I checked a Crown Vic is in no way, shape, or form, a RACE CAR).

Watts links and PHB do NOT do the IDENTICAL jobs unless you look at "lateral location" as the job. And if you do, that ignores the arc of the PHB and what happens dynamically. A PHB does not do as good a job maintaining the relationship between the body and axle, period.

And you can think it's placebo all you want, but it easier to drive the car faster with one than with a PHB. Yeah, you bought a V-6 to go to the store in... no you don't need Watts link. Have a Mustang to drag race with only? Same deal. Do you want to have a car that handles well, on *or* off a racetrack? Watts links help. I know I have run them... and fwiw I was of similar mind to the naysayers back before I actually, you know, tried. And I tried because I had to know, it's called testing. And I was wrong, there is a big difference.
 

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Have you guys run a Watts link? I have, and it's not placebo effect.
How can you say? Have you driven an identical car on the same day, on the same track, only with a PHB instead of a Watts? If so, please tell us specifically what you found.

From my experience driven dozens of cars as an instructor, there's not a lot of difference between a Watts and a PHB. Yes, there is SOME difference, but for the average HPDE or OT car, the benefit doesn't warrant the added expense, in my OPINION.

I find it sad, very sad that this is the attitude and assumption.
Watch it -- you're making assumptions too.
 

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Yes, I have.... See it's quite easy to remove a Fays2 for a PHB. Have you?

Level of experience here isn't even a matter, experience with both types of setups is. I have it. Others have it. There are quite a few folks on S197forums, and Mustangforums.com that have put Watts links on in lieu of their PHB's and found a marked difference--and many aren't track rats.

You drove a lot of cars. Fine, so have I. Often 12 a day. You might well have driven a Watts car... but in reading your statement, it's pretty clear you did so in different cars, which have different setups and personalities. I've driven Watts links vs. PHB's in not one, not two, not three, but in 4 different cars after they had PHB's (and had driven all of them before, and done tests on my own cars each way, 2 of those being my own cars).

Bottom line. You have folks assuming it's fluff. I used to be one. You have folks who'd done actually used them, and stayed with them. You think if it didn't make the car better I'd want to drag around the extra weight????? Sorry, doesn't work that way. Maybe you think it's because I sell parts and a Watts link is $650 vs. $100-170 for a PHB. Well, I sell PHB's too, so that's not it (and frankly because of cost PHB's are an easier sell). I sell them because I believe in them.

The car is flat out easier to drive fast, especially on imperfect road surfaces or heavy transition. Well, race tracks tend to be more smooth, and not a lot of transition. Street driving and autox will cause you to see more imperfect pavement and of course transition from autox is much more common than road-racing, we see more transition in 30 seconds than you'd see in 15 minutes on a road course.

And to close I'll build on this. The place you'd see the LEAST difference is on a track, on a stiff car that has little suspension movement. Super stiff cars have limited travel which means less PHB arc motion. And race tracks again will tend to be in better shape overall than public roads. So for the folks who haven't tried a Watts link to say that you only need it on the track, but then it really doesn't matter anyway, I find it a bit disingenuous. Fact is they work more magic on the street than on a track, but work in both scenario's.
 
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