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That is really cool. Have you looked into the Laminova branded laminar flow air-water heat exchangers? Apparently they outflow and outperform traditional bar and plate style construction, but don't seem to be easily found these days. Back in the mid 2000s I recall there were a few companies that could build you an intercooler of whatever dimensions you wanted out of them. I think they were used for Subaru WRX intercooling at one point. I've always been keen on doing something like that, but didn't have access to fabrication facilities until more recently. I'm not racing or anything, just driving on the street, but I like the design of the upper plate that incorporates both the discharge of the supercharger and the inlet to the intercooler. I could probably waterjet something out of 6061 to match that and TIG an enclosure together, but we'll see if I ever attempt it!
I believe Saleen used something like the Laminova design in their supercharged vehicles a few years ago. It is surprising that if it is that much better, that the auto manufacturer's would not incorporate this design, yet they stay with the bar and plate style of I/C core. Reliability? Because the car has a warranty? Cheaper to implement in cost per unit? IDK. I have so much tied up in this custom set up, I am committed to getting my money out of it at this point. Maybe in a few years, or if I upgrade to the larger 4.2L LQ blower for even more boost. You would be surprised at much R&D (read $$$) is involved in making a custom one off set up. Some people have less in an entire engine than what the inlet/outlet manifolds cost to develop.
 

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Indo-Canuck-Yankee
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I believe Saleen used something like the Laminova design in their supercharged vehicles a few years ago. It is surprising that if it is that much better, that the auto manufacturer's would not incorporate this design, yet they stay with the bar and plate style of I/C core. Reliability? Because the car has a warranty? Cheaper to implement in cost per unit? IDK. I have so much tied up in this custom set up, I am committed to getting my money out of it at this point. Maybe in a few years, or if I upgrade to the larger 4.2L LQ blower for even more boost. You would be surprised at much R&D (read $$$) is involved in making a custom one off set up. Some people have less in an entire engine than what the inlet/outlet manifolds cost to develop.
Yeah, I get that. I work for a company that does aviation R&D and with a couple of Haas and various other CNC machines scattered around the shop, I've seen the cost of prototyping and limited run production first hand. How much power output have you managed to squeeze out of that setup? It certainly looks pretty optimal in terms of intercooling!

Personally, I think I will send my 2.2L unit back to Kenne Bell for the liquid cooling upgrade as they claim to offer this service to anyone who has an Autorotor without it for a tidy sum of $1100. I've been contemplating doing this for about 8 years LOL. I'm regularly see IATs up to 230 degrees F pullied for 14.5 psi of boost. Water injection has helped some, but my system is far from optimally tuned. I have an AEM dual nozzle kit and controller which is set to add water proportional to boost based on feedback from a MAP sensor reading from the supercharger discharge. Since the combo is relatively new to me, I'm not sure whether my nozzles are correctly sized at this point.
 

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How much power output have you managed to squeeze out of that setup? It certainly looks pretty optimal in terms of intercooling!
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The engine is making north of 1,000 HP. It is a 8.2" deck Dart Iron Eagle block bored and stroked to 358 cid. It is 9.0:1 compression. Has AFR Renegade 220 cyl heads, custom solid roller cam, Jesel belt drive. Internals are Calles Crank and Oliver Rods with JE pistons. I have spun the engine as high as 8,400 rpm, but usually shift at around 7,800 rpm or so. On the dyno with 18 psi it made just north of 900 whp. I currently run at about 20+ psi. With a 9.5" crank pulley and a 2.76" blower pulley I have seen a peak of 22 psi, but that was over-spinning the supercharger by a bunch. That KB was spinning 25,800+ rpm at 7,500 engine rpm. Has held together so far...lol


Here is the dyno sheet. Gotta love HP and TRQ "curve" with a PD blower.

 

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Water injection has helped some, but my system is far from optimally tuned. I have an AEM dual nozzle kit and controller which is set to add water proportional to boost based on feedback from a MAP sensor reading from the supercharger discharge.
The boost curve on your positive displacement blower isn't linear. It would be easier to tune with a controller that is MAF voltage based. This is one case where I don't have any relevant data to share......sorry.

Thanks
Michael Plummer
 

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The engine is making north of 1,000 HP. It is a 8.2" deck Dart Iron Eagle block bored and stroked to 358 cid. It is 9.0:1 compression. Has AFR Renegade 220 cyl heads, custom solid roller cam, Jesel belt drive. Internals are Calles Crank and Oliver Rods with JE pistons. I have spun the engine as high as 8,400 rpm, but usually shift at around 7,800 rpm or so. On the dyno with 18 psi it made just north of 900 whp. I currently run at about 20+ psi. With a 9.5" crank pulley and a 2.76" blower pulley I have seen a peak of 22 psi, but that was over-spinning the supercharger by a bunch. That KB was spinning 25,800+ rpm at 7,500 engine rpm. Has held together so far...lol


Here is the dyno sheet. Gotta love HP and TRQ "curve" with a PD blower.

INSANE and congrats on a nice and unique setup.

Thanks
Michael Plummer
 

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INSANE and congrats on a nice and unique setup.

Thanks
Michael Plummer
Thanks...it has benn a long road, but worth it. I like the challenge of doing something outside the box. Probably could have made more power with a turbo set up, but not as challenging.
 

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Indo-Canuck-Yankee
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The boost curve on your positive displacement blower isn't linear. It would be easier to tune with a controller that is MAF voltage based. This is one case where I don't have any relevant data to share......sorry.

Thanks
Michael Plummer
Why would the MAF signal be better than the MAP signal? The system is actually originally designed to be proportionally tied into the MAF voltage, not the MAP. A friend of mine who works on aviation EFI professionally suggested that I run via MAP instead. I just accepted that since he is a good friend, but your comment's got me questioning it all over again.
 

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Q) Why would the MAF signal be better than the MAP signal?
A) MAP based controllers were designed for superchargers like Vortech, ProCharger and Paxton, where max boost is at max rpm. The MAF controller was designed for positive displacement blowers and turbo units. Using a MAP controller with a positive displacement blower makes your injection strategy rich in the lower rpms because boost builds to fast and the controller doesn't have a chance to inject the fluid in a linear fashion. Basically you reach max boost to quickly. Using a MAF controller based on MAF voltage is better because it won't max out as quickly like the MAP controller. This is based on info from Snow Performance.

If you're injecting a lot of fluid this will make a difference in HP and TQ, if you're not injecting a lot of fluid I suspect it won't make a difference.

Thanks
Michael Plummer
 

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Twin Screw
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Yeah, I get that. I work for a company that does aviation R&D and with a couple of Haas and various other CNC machines scattered around the shop, I've seen the cost of prototyping and limited run production first hand. How much power output have you managed to squeeze out of that setup? It certainly looks pretty optimal in terms of intercooling!

Personally, I think I will send my 2.2L unit back to Kenne Bell for the liquid cooling upgrade as they claim to offer this service to anyone who has an Autorotor without it for a tidy sum of $1100. I've been contemplating doing this for about 8 years LOL. I'm regularly see IATs up to 230 degrees F pullied for 14.5 psi of boost. Water injection has helped some, but my system is far from optimally tuned. I have an AEM dual nozzle kit and controller which is set to add water proportional to boost based on feedback from a MAP sensor reading from the supercharger discharge. Since the combo is relatively new to me, I'm not sure whether my nozzles are correctly sized at this point.
You must be doing something wrong. I have the same 2.1 . With these heat furnaces you need to hit them at low boost with alot of methanol mix. I have videos posted. In the middle of summer with 80+temps outside on 14lbs I usually see around 120 on the boost on a heat soaked engine. I run a 14gph single nozzle on a AIS system, but with devils own nozzles. In the summer I sometimes add in a second nozzle but cut the mixture to a 60/40 to keep the af ratio the same. The secondary nozzle is inside my andrson pipe before the throttle body. The main 14gph is in a accufab plate that I had cut to an inch thick and it dumps right after the throttle body. I sometimes run with a second from 2-4gph more. Injecting before the throttle body is hard on these pd cars. In testing I saw that anything over a 7gph more of the mix wasnt getting into the intake and running out the filter. I do alot testing on the car. I run a k thermocouple with a spa technique dual boost and iat gauge. At idle and cruzing I rarely see over 160iat at the motor. I measure this after the rotors right where the vacume lines go. On a hit on cold day 60-70, the temps will drop up to 50° . Hotter day not so much maybe 20°. This is with the single 14gph. Add in another nozzle and things change. You have to look at it this way. Cruise and idle iat on a warmed up motor, and your iats should be around 140-160°. If you have the bypass. Should be no hotter. When you hit a motor at 14lbs, the roundabout calculation is 10° increase for every lb added. So add 140° to 160° high end number. Your around there which is telling me your system isnt working. Take my same example, same boost as you, Im seeing say 120. That is telling me the methanol kit on my car is eliminating 180° of increase on boost. For anyone that thinks they cant get it lower than ambiant with water methanol they would be wrong. I did one test with a 25gph nozzle. Although Im sure the af ratio was off but I wanted to try it and could easliy replicate it again for video. On a 85 degree day on tad less boost 12lbs. I saw almost 50°iat measured after the supercharger. If your going to measure temps nothing beats the speed and accuracy of a k thermocouple and quality gauge. 3 things these KBs need. 1.Alot of methanol. 2.They need it right on the hit 1-2 lbs all 14gph of it..3. Inject point is optimal right after tb to cool entire track and blower case. If you need help pm me. But from what Im hearing that system isnt up to the task.
 

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Indo-Canuck-Yankee
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You must be doing something wrong. I have the same 2.1 . With these heat furnaces you need to hit them at low boost with alot of methanol mix. I have videos posted. In the middle of summer with 80+temps outside on 14lbs I usually see around 120 on the boost on a heat soaked engine. I run a 14gph single nozzle on a AIS system, but with devils own nozzles. In the summer I sometimes add in a second nozzle but cut the mixture to a 60/40 to keep the af ratio the same. The secondary nozzle is inside my andrson pipe before the throttle body. The main 14gph is in a accufab plate that I had cut to an inch thick and it dumps right after the throttle body. I sometimes run with a second from 2-4gph more. Injecting before the throttle body is hard on these pd cars. In testing I saw that anything over a 7gph more of the mix wasnt getting into the intake and running out the filter. I do alot testing on the car. I run a k thermocouple with a spa technique dual boost and iat gauge. At idle and cruzing I rarely see over 160iat at the motor. I measure this after the rotors right where the vacume lines go. On a hit on cold day 60-70, the temps will drop up to 50° . Hotter day not so much maybe 20°. This is with the single 14gph. Add in another nozzle and things change. You have to look at it this way. Cruise and idle iat on a warmed up motor, and your iats should be around 140-160°. If you have the bypass. Should be no hotter. When you hit a motor at 14lbs, the roundabout calculation is 10° increase for every lb added. So add 140° to 160° high end number. Your around there which is telling me your system isnt working. Take my same example, same boost as you, Im seeing say 120. That is telling me the methanol kit on my car is eliminating 180° of increase on boost. For anyone that thinks they cant get it lower than ambiant with water methanol they would be wrong. I did one test with a 25gph nozzle. Although Im sure the af ratio was off but I wanted to try it and could easliy replicate it again for video. On a 85 degree day on tad less boost 12lbs. I saw almost 50°iat measured after the supercharger. If your going to measure temps nothing beats the speed and accuracy of a k thermocouple and quality gauge. 3 things these KBs need. 1.Alot of methanol. 2.They need it right on the hit 1-2 lbs all 14gph of it..3. Inject point is optimal right after tb to cool entire track and blower case. If you need help pm me. But from what Im hearing that system isnt up to the task.
You're absolutely right, I do not believe the system is functioning optimally at all. It's simply due to lack of knowledge on how much and when to apply the injection. Note that I'm not using water/meth mix however, I'm using just water. The -20*F stuff is actually not commonly found in my neck of the woods (southern Arizona). I've looked for it numerous times, but the availability of the stuff deterred me from using it altogether since I do occasionally use the car for longer roadtrips; didn't want to deal with not being able to find the meth, but still having the tune pull out fuel expecting it.

Part of my issue is simply figuring out what kind of nozzle flow rate I've got installed right now. Even if I don't get down to similar temperatures as you with pure water, I should be seeing a significant reduction anyway. The injection point in my case is right after the TB, dual nozzles. I'll try dumping a bunch in on initial boost (1-2 psi) as you suggested and see what happens.
 

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Twin Screw
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I believe the aem rates their nozzles in cc's. Whats the cc's? The methanol on the cheap can be bought from any VP distributor. Just ask for M1. They sell in 5 gallon mini drums. Around 55-60. At 50/50 it will make 10 gallons. I believe the aem kit has a small, under a gallon tank if Im not mistaken also. Im going to be honest you need the 3 gallon on the KBs. I dont drive mine alot but when I do I boost it alot. If you do decide to upgrade, a buddy of mine bought shawns old notch with the AA intercooled setup. He still has the AIS system off it for sale. Water is ok if thats all you have. But I noticed that on my combo, and Im sure its will apply to many is that the motor will only take so much water until it will bog down. Say you run 7gph on water. And say thats all that combo will take. First its not enough to cool a KB. Add in 7gph methanol. Methanol burns and cools. So now you effectively putting 14gph through a motor that initially only could take 7gph. Not saying 7 was or is your limit just used that number for a reference point. Where you have the nozzles are good. The activation on my kit is a simple type hobbs switch you adjust it to come on at x boost. Picture the engine running at operating temp. The only thing cooling the intake track is the incomming air. Correlated to outside air temp. With a k thermocouple , good gauge you can see at light cruise the ait temp is x, boost hit it goes up. Then cruise it slowly comes back down. But in all my experience that back down max is no lower than 140 on a 80° day. Lower on colder morns and seasons. Point is that the KBs setup is a big heat sink. To get the heat out you have to hit it as soon as the boost does, or you will be playing catchup. Cooling is determined by amount injected, time injected and distance covered. I like the furthest point because it stacks down the intake pipe. Referenced to the 25gph nozzle I used, I pulled over quick and I could have gotten freezer burn in the intake. An exaggeration, yes a little bit when your putting a warm hand on a 40-50° manifold in 85 degree weather it feels good. I was at first using 10gph nozzles, like you I had to find out my own info. If you read alot of the archives here you will find people could never cool these. Just search it. Main factor I found in all of those were that the gph injected was very low. So I tried high. Nozzle design is also a factor. I use devils own nozzles because I feel they spray finer that the AIS ones gph to gph, and better desgn and materials internally. If you need help Im willing to help. I love this stuff.
 

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Indo-Canuck-Yankee
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Well, I certainly appreciate the responses. This morning I pulled both nozzles out of my intake tract to see what I was running. AEM offers 3 different nozzle sizes, 250 cc/min (4 gph), 500 cc/min (8 gph), and 1000 cc/min (16 gph). Mine were setup for dual 500 cc/min operation, or dual 8 gph for a total of 16 gph. I replaced one of the 8 gph nozzles with a 16 gph, so now have 24 gph capability. The AEM system is setup to trigger at an adjustable voltage and ramp in linearly at another adjustable voltage higher than the first. A friend setup a MAP sensor to drive the system. I adjusted the on and ramp voltages to be very close together and lowered the ON voltage so that it starts at roughly 1 psi.

I can see a difference, for sure... IATs as read by the datalogger on the OEM sensor were showing no hotter than 190*F on an extended duration pull (extreme speed!). I'm wondering whether I need to use dual 1000 cc/min (16 gph) nozzles in order to get the volume of water needed to cool more effectively.
 

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You must be doing something wrong. I have the same 2.1 . With these heat furnaces you need to hit them at low boost with alot of methanol mix. I have videos posted. In the middle of summer with 80+temps outside on 14lbs I usually see around 120 on the boost on a heat soaked engine. I run a 14gph single nozzle on a AIS system, but with devils own nozzles. In the summer I sometimes add in a second nozzle but cut the mixture to a 60/40 to keep the af ratio the same. The secondary nozzle is inside my andrson pipe before the throttle body. The main 14gph is in a accufab plate that I had cut to an inch thick and it dumps right after the throttle body. I sometimes run with a second from 2-4gph more. Injecting before the throttle body is hard on these pd cars. In testing I saw that anything over a 7gph more of the mix wasnt getting into the intake and running out the filter. I do alot testing on the car. I run a k thermocouple with a spa technique dual boost and iat gauge. At idle and cruzing I rarely see over 160iat at the motor. I measure this after the rotors right where the vacume lines go. On a hit on cold day 60-70, the temps will drop up to 50° . Hotter day not so much maybe 20°. This is with the single 14gph. Add in another nozzle and things change. You have to look at it this way. Cruise and idle iat on a warmed up motor, and your iats should be around 140-160°. If you have the bypass. Should be no hotter. When you hit a motor at 14lbs, the roundabout calculation is 10° increase for every lb added. So add 140° to 160° high end number. Your around there which is telling me your system isnt working. Take my same example, same boost as you, Im seeing say 120. That is telling me the methanol kit on my car is eliminating 180° of increase on boost. For anyone that thinks they cant get it lower than ambiant with water methanol they would be wrong. I did one test with a 25gph nozzle. Although Im sure the af ratio was off but I wanted to try it and could easliy replicate it again for video. On a 85 degree day on tad less boost 12lbs. I saw almost 50°iat measured after the supercharger. If your going to measure temps nothing beats the speed and accuracy of a k thermocouple and quality gauge. 3 things these KBs need. 1.Alot of methanol. 2.They need it right on the hit 1-2 lbs all 14gph of it..3. Inject point is optimal right after tb to cool entire track and blower case. If you need help pm me. But from what Im hearing that system isnt up to the task.
Is that mix 60/40 water/meth or meth/water?

" Injecting before the throttle body is hard on these pd cars" Why??
 

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Is that mix 60/40 water/meth or meth/water?

" Injecting before the throttle body is hard on these pd cars" Why??
On a PD engine anything before the blower is in vacuum. With a Centri or Turbo set up, the area in front of the T-body will see boost pressure. A PD car will never see positive pressure before TB, so as a result, the water/meth can just puddle and not go past the throttle body.
 

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Twin Screw
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Is that mix 60/40 water/meth or meth/water?

" Injecting before the throttle body is hard on these pd cars" Why??
When I add another nozzle for more gph I cut the mix. For calculations a 14gph total is theroetically 7gph water 7gph methanol. So if I add a 3 gph i now have 17gph total. Car was tuned on 14gph. If I cut the mix to 60% water the water is now 10.2gph and the methanol is 6.8gph. Pretty close.



There hard to inject before tb for a couple of reasons. Main one being the operation of the supercharger. Its easily goes into boost so if you boost it ,then off it quick and shut the tb the remaining mix runs down into the filter. It will do the same on longer boost runs as well.Centrifical doesnt have this problem and the pipe is always pressurized vs vacume. The main reason is that these need alot of gph. Best spot for max ingestion is after the tb. I found this out from a few things. Car was bogging down after boost runs. But would clear up in 30s to a min. Water was messing with the maf.Then I really noticed when doing testing I pulled over after boost to check under the car and saw water dripping out of the filter.


As all systems may rate their nozzles in gph or cc, plus throw in the whole mess of this pump flows this and that pump flows that. Here is a quick test anyone can do on their own system to check your gph. Get a blender container thats marked in oz. Perferably one with more hash marks for good accuracy. Bigger the better. Can do this either way. Power the system out of any loop for full voltage to the pump. Can place the nozzle or nozzles in a blender and turn on power for 10 seconds. Record the oz and multiply by 6 then divide by 128, this will give you gpm then multiply to gph by x by 60. For example say I run the test and get 10oz. I multipy by 6 for 60sec and get 60oz. 60÷128=.468. Then .468x60=28.1gph.

This is a round about system to get gph.
Shaker keep testing to see where you are. 190°is getting better. Your down another 40°.

I personally have never tested my nozzles and I should. They are listed at 14gph. But at 200psi. My pump is 250psi. I may be alot higher than listed.
 

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When I add another nozzle for more gph I cut the mix. For calculations a 14gph total is theroetically 7gph water 7gph methanol. So if I add a 3 gph i now have 17gph total. Car was tuned on 14gph. If I cut the mix to 60% water the water is now 10.2gph and the methanol is 6.8gph. Pretty close.



There hard to inject before tb for a couple of reasons. Main one being the operation of the supercharger. Its easily goes into boost so if you boost it ,then off it quick and shut the tb the remaining mix runs down into the filter. It will do the same on longer boost runs as well.Centrifical doesnt have this problem and the pipe is always pressurized vs vacume. The main reason is that these need alot of gph. Best spot for max ingestion is after the tb. I found this out from a few things. Car was bogging down after boost runs. But would clear up in 30s to a min. Water was messing with the maf.Then I really noticed when doing testing I pulled over after boost to check under the car and saw water dripping out of the filter.


As all systems may rate their nozzles in gph or cc, plus throw in the whole mess of this pump flows this and that pump flows that. Here is a quick test anyone can do on their own system to check your gph. Get a blender container thats marked in oz. Perferably one with more hash marks for good accuracy. Bigger the better. Can do this either way. Power the system out of any loop for full voltage to the pump. Can place the nozzle or nozzles in a blender and turn on power for 10 seconds. Record the oz and multiply by 6 then divide by 128, this will give you gpm then multiply to gph by x by 60. For example say I run the test and get 10oz. I multipy by 6 for 60sec and get 60oz. 60÷128=.468. Then .468x60=28.1gph.

This is a round about system to get gph.
Shaker keep testing to see where you are. 190°is getting better. Your down another 40°.

I personally have never tested my nozzles and I should. They are listed at 14gph. But at 200psi. My pump is 250psi. I may be alot higher than listed.

So 60/40 60% water & 40% meth per gallon mix?
 

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Twin Screw
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Most mixes I do are 50/50. With a 3 gallon tank its easy. When low dump 1 gallon distilled. Refill empty gallon container. Then dump ajother gallon methanol. My car is tuned on 50/50. So the af ratio is whatever it is on 50/50. When hotter outside I personally add more gph. To keep the af ratio close to what I tuned on I have to adjust the mix accordingly. In example given 60 water and 40 methanol was given. But if you are tuning or setting up a system 50/50 is best. Easy to fill. Im going to test my nozzles soon to see what they are actually flowing.
 

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If you run a water methanol kit you have to run it all the time so you're going to be wasting a lot of water methanol if you use an intercooler it won't cost you nothing once it's set up
 

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Reviving this....appreciate the thread. I have 4.6 DOHC built with 9.1-ish CR and new internals topped with KB2.1. Using Snow's Pump and 375cc coming on at minimum boost and 625 at WOT like a nitrous setup. From what I'm reading here it seems like I could run a bigger primary or even run it full time with another coming on with boost.
 
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