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Discussion Starter #1
I'm going to run a sbf with an f1r. I have bought a water to air kit that came off of a race car but now i'm having second thought about it and thinking of a water/meth injection kit. Installation would be way easier with the meth kit and i'm wondering if all the assle of the piping fitting and everything is worth it !The car will be a street strip car. Any advice or experience with both would be appriciated.
Thanks
 

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Intercooler setup can only cool the temps so far and it doesn't offer any more octane to prevent detonation. Meth inj offers cooling plus more octane to prevent detonation..... if you're running pump gas and need more octane.

ks
 

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Same boat here but with a novi 2000, I'm leaning towards meth with 93 octane, and considering e85, but dont want to redo my entire fuelsystem.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I dont have any e85 near from where I live but it would of been a good solution. Far from beeing an expert with supercharger, actualy it's my first build with one, but from my reading I think that the f1r produce alot more heat than the novi does. I've seen few guys running them without intercooler or meth on pump gas but as always better be safe than sorry !
 

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I have been running meth since April. It does what I intended it to do very well! Install was fairly easy to be honest.
I dropped temps by atleast 100* that brought back all the timing that was being pulled by heat alone.
 

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Indo-Canuck-Yankee
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It's really hard to complain about water/meth injection. It's pretty simple to install and the reduction of IAT is simply unmatched - especially when you consider value. Yeah, I have to fill up the water tank every fuel fill, but it's worthwhile. I decided to not tune for meth and use straight RO or distilled water.
 

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On pump gas, water meth is easier, cheaper and less complicated. In a race application, air/water is superior.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Thanks guys for your answer.
The thing is that it's a street strip car but more strip oriented that can drive on the street. pump gas on the street but maybe better fuel for the strip.
I got the water to air kit for a decent price but install would be easier with water meth.
I forgot to mention that it's going to be a blowthrough carb set up.
 

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Indo-Canuck-Yankee
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On pump gas, water meth is easier, cheaper and less complicated. In a race application, air/water is superior.
Water meth is definitely easier and cheaper, but the instantaneous IAT reduction + octane you get from it far exceeds what you can squeeze out of an air/water intercooler. The benefit to the intercooler is that you don't have to refill anything to obtain the benefit.
 

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Water meth is definitely easier and cheaper, but the instantaneous IAT reduction + octane you get from it far exceeds what you can squeeze out of an air/water intercooler. .
I have datalogs that would put a serious dent in your argument. Air/water will lower AIT temps more than water/meth, by a large factor. My statement holds true. On pump gas, you are better off initially with water/meth. In a race application, air/water can not be beat.
 

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Indo-Canuck-Yankee
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I have datalogs that would put a serious dent in your argument. Air/water will lower AIT temps more than water/meth, by a large factor. My statement holds true. On pump gas, you are better off initially with water/meth. In a race application, air/water can not be beat.
While the two methods of cooling the air discharge are vastly different, the water/meth method is in my experience a bit more difficult to tune properly. The thermodynamic physics of the water/meth method indicate that in a properly designed system the latent heat of vaporization of water (just the water part) would pull more heat out of the air mass faster than conductive heat transfer via a physical intercooler. Add methanol to the equation and you cool the charge down even further, potentially well below ambient. A physical intercooler could not reduce air temps below ambient in most practical circumstances, simply because the heat exchange of the coolant medium (typically water, right?) is with ambient air. Methanol functions as a refrigerant and an octane boosted fuel on the other hand, which is also why tuning a water/meth system is more involved since the AFR must be properly adjusted to compensate for the addition of it into the fuel charge. It's definitely doable, but it really requires a fair bit of tuning of the ECU.

I've heard that the laminar flow type of intercoolers are considerably more efficient than your typical air/water intercooler. Regardless, fabricating a setup for my Kenne Bell Fox car would be a big project... I'm stuck with water/meth for the time being.
 

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I've got both, a/w and meth. To be honest, I'm thinking of pulling my a/w custom built intercooler and going straight turbo to t/b with meth to keep the temps in check. It will save me tons of plumbing and weight. Right now the cooler and tank with lines hold over 8gls of water. Roughly 65 pounds tied up in the system. Running straight water meth mix with my AIS system is so much simpler.
 

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While the two methods of cooling the air discharge are vastly different, the water/meth method is in my experience a bit more difficult to tune properly. The thermodynamic physics of the water/meth method indicate that in a properly designed system the latent heat of vaporization of water (just the water part) would pull more heat out of the air mass faster than conductive heat transfer via a physical intercooler. Add methanol to the equation and you cool the charge down even further, potentially well below ambient. A physical intercooler could not reduce air temps below ambient in most practical circumstances, simply because the heat exchange of the coolant medium (typically water, right?) is with ambient air. Methanol functions as a refrigerant and an octane boosted fuel on the other hand, which is also why tuning a water/meth system is more involved since the AFR must be properly adjusted to compensate for the addition of it into the fuel charge. It's definitely doable, but it really requires a fair bit of tuning of the ECU.

I've heard that the laminar flow type of intercoolers are considerably more efficient than your typical air/water intercooler. Regardless, fabricating a setup for my Kenne Bell Fox car would be a big project... I'm stuck with water/meth for the time being.
In a race application with air/water intercoolers, everyone is using iced water, so lower than ambient temps is not a problem. Most often than not, water/meth is considered a "power adder" and having two power adders is against the rules in some classes. In cases where a boosted application is not using air/water or air/air intercooling it is because they are burning straight Methanol and a intercooler is not needed as the fuel provides the necessary air charge temp reduction.
 

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Indo-Canuck-Yankee
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In a race application with air/water intercoolers, everyone is using iced water, so lower than ambient temps is not a problem. Most often than not, water/meth is considered a "power adder" and having two power adders is against the rules in some classes. In cases where a boosted application is not using air/water or air/air intercooling it is because they are burning straight Methanol and a intercooler is not needed as the fuel provides the necessary air charge temp reduction.
I see that you're running a 2.8L KB on an SBF? I'd love to see some pictures of the engine!
 

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That is really sick. You might be one of the only people I'm aware of that has adapted the newer Kenne Bell (assuming it's still an Opcon Autorotor?) to the SBF. Just a couple of questions because I've toyed with the idea of intercooling mine at some point as well.

The supercharger looks like it has the liquid cooling option on it... does that actually help with lowering the IATs and what kind of IAT are you running? Custom fabricated discharge assembly with integral air-water intercooler at the discharge up top? Is all of that plenum mainly boxed up or are there contours inside to help flow?

Where'd you get all those nice wide pullies?! :drool:
 

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That is really sick. You might be one of the only people I'm aware of that has adapted the newer Kenne Bell (assuming it's still an Opcon Autorotor?) to the SBF. Just a couple of questions because I've toyed with the idea of intercooling mine at some point as well.

The supercharger looks like it has the liquid cooling option on it... does that actually help with lowering the IATs and what kind of IAT are you running? Custom fabricated discharge assembly with integral air-water intercooler at the discharge up top? Is all of that plenum mainly boxed up or are there contours inside to help flow?

Where'd you get all those nice wide pullies?! :drool:
Yes it is a 2.8 LQ Kenne Bell. I have a separate reservoir and cooler for the water that flows through the front of the case on the KB. And yes the supercharger runs cooler by a bunch. I am sure that has a positive impact on the air charge temps if the S/C itself is cooler.
As far as IAT while running, I have datalogged some runs to see what the pre and post IAT were. The FAST XFI uses GM sensors, so that is the source of the logged temps. The GM IAT sensors pegged out at 255* F before the I/C pump was turned on after the burnout just before a run, so I assume that the temps went over 300* on the trans-brake at 14 psi @ 2,500 rpm. It was common to see less than 80* IAT at the beginning of the run and have the temps creep up around 100* by the end of the pass. This is at 20ish psi during the run spinning the S/C at times over 24K rpm at max engine speed. So I aam pretty happy with the efficiency of the I/C set up considering size of the I/C core and layout on the engine. Here are a few pics of how it all comes together:

This picture is of the Reichard Racing box upper intake manifold that sits on the Trick Flow R lower manifold. The lower manifold is un-ported at this time.



This is the I/C core that sits in the upper intake, it was the largest that Kenne Bell made at the time and just fits this manifold.



This is with that I/C core sitting in the upper intake



This is with the plate on that mounts the S/C.




The lid is basically just a open box, no flow devices on the inside. It is all pressurized and I am sure that the I/C core straightens out any turbulant air charge by the time it gets to the intake runners. The pulleys are either from Billet Flow or I had Auto Specialties custom make them.

Picture of the -12 hoses that deliver and return the ice water to the I/C core

 

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Indo-Canuck-Yankee
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That is really cool. Have you looked into the Laminova branded laminar flow air-water heat exchangers? Apparently they outflow and outperform traditional bar and plate style construction, but don't seem to be easily found these days. Back in the mid 2000s I recall there were a few companies that could build you an intercooler of whatever dimensions you wanted out of them. I think they were used for Subaru WRX intercooling at one point. I've always been keen on doing something like that, but didn't have access to fabrication facilities until more recently. I'm not racing or anything, just driving on the street, but I like the design of the upper plate that incorporates both the discharge of the supercharger and the inlet to the intercooler. I could probably waterjet something out of 6061 to match that and TIG an enclosure together, but we'll see if I ever attempt it!
 
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