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I have been looking at this intake and the power it can produce....anyway to get to the point how much money in parts should i be ready to spend because i think i heard you have to have the intake,imrc deletes and a single blade tboby......not to mention after all that i need a tune. Just tryin to figure out how much i need to put aside.

Also would i be a little ahead of myself by thinking my car with this mod should fall between 320-330RWHP with the mods i already have?
thanks Joel
ps i just wanna play nice with a couple ram airs in the area:evil:
 

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You are looking at $2200-$2400 by the time you are done with everything. I gained 29 RWHP and 5.5 RWTQ with NO torque loss ANYWHERE!!!!! Those gains were using a BBK 62mm T.B. I have now changed to the Accufab single blade T.B. and I would say it picked the car up another 7-8 RWHP in the upper RPM range. Paul's intake does work but, it ain't cheap. It does work VERY well though for pissing off the local LS1 guys around here when they find out it's just a stock looking little N/A 281C.I. Ford. :D
 

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ALLNTRL said:
You are looking at $2200-$2400 by the time you are done with everything. I gained 29 RWHP and 5.5 RWTQ with NO torque loss ANYWHERE!!!!! Those gains were using a BBK 62mm T.B. I have now changed to the Accufab single blade T.B. and I would say it picked the car up another 7-8 RWHP in the upper RPM range. Paul's intake does work but, it ain't cheap. It does work VERY well though for pissing off the local LS1 guys around here when they find out it's just a stock looking little N/A 281C.I. Ford. :D
ALLNTRL - perhaps, you can shed some light on this information for me. PHP claims that their IMRC delete package is worth 22HP and 20 ft/lbs.

"IMRC Delete Package - Extends hp curve above 4000 rpm, up to 7000 rpm with no low-end power loss. Must use PHP chip (included). Adds 22hp and 20lb/ft of torque Cost: $495" got this information at >>>http://www.paulshp.com/paulshp.htm

You've previously posted that the PHP chip is only good for about 5 rwhp. So that would mean that the IMRC's are good for about 17 rwhp. I've always thought the IMRC's are good for only about 8-10 rwhp.

With respect to the intake, does this mean that the intake is only worth another 9-10 HP at about the same peak gain rpm as the IMRC's? Or, is the intake adding its peak power (say 29 rwhp) at one point in the rpm range and the IMRC's are adding their peak power (say 22 rwhp) at another point in the rpm range??

For example, if you take a car making 290 rwhp at 6100 and 250 rwhp at 6900 and added the PHP deletes, intake, TB and chip, would it make about 319 rwhp at 6100 and 272 rwhp at 6900? Or would it see a total gain of about 51HP at 6100 or 6900?

Do you have before and after dyno data showing the gains from the PHP intake package. This would be quite helpful in understanding what gains the various PHP packages provide.

22rwhp for $500 is very low dollar hp. On the other hand, spending another $1700-$1900 for another 9-10 rwhp seems a little pricey.

Thanks for any insight that you can provide...
 

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OK, maybe this will help:

3-4K RPM: Avg.HP gain was 6RWHP and Avg.TQ gain was 8.7RWTQ

4-5K RPM: Avg.HP gain was 5.2RWHP and Avg.TQ gain was 5.5RWTQ

5-6K RPM: Avg.HP gain was 9.4RWHP and Avg.TQ gain was 9.7RWTQ

6-6800 RPM: Avg.HP gain was 24.7RWHP and Avg.TQ gain was 20.1RWTQ

The ONLY way you are going to gain 22HP & 20ft/lbs. from the IMRC deletes by themselves is "MAYBE" in a blown application. You might gain alittle HP (5-8) N/A but, you will lose TQ down low.

With the stock intake, HP peaked at 6100RPM and TQ peaked at 4800RPM

After the PHP intake, HP peaked at 6400RPM and TQ peaked at 4600RPM

As stated before, this was with a BBK 62mm T.B. I do think that if the Accufab T.B. had been used the gains would have been greater. Hope that info. helps clear up some of your questions. :)

Also the intake with the IMRC delete package will gain you around 50RWHP and 25Ft/lbs. of TQ on a blown application.
 

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ALLNTRL said:
OK, maybe this will help:

3-4K RPM: Avg.HP gain was 6RWHP and Avg.TQ gain was 8.7RWTQ

4-5K RPM: Avg.HP gain was 5.2RWHP and Avg.TQ gain was 5.5RWTQ

5-6K RPM: Avg.HP gain was 9.4RWHP and Avg.TQ gain was 9.7RWTQ

6-6800 RPM: Avg.HP gain was 24.7RWHP and Avg.TQ gain was 20.1RWTQ

The ONLY way you are going to gain 22HP & 20ft/lbs. from the IMRC deletes by themselves is "MAYBE" in a blown application. You might gain alittle HP (5-8) N/A but, you will lose TQ down low.

With the stock intake, HP peaked at 6100RPM and TQ peaked at 4800RPM

After the PHP intake, HP peaked at 6400RPM and TQ peaked at 4600RPM

As stated before, this was with a BBK 62mm T.B. I do think that if the Accufab T.B. had been used the gains would have been greater. Hope that info. helps clear up some of your questions. :)

Also the intake with the IMRC delete package will gain you around 50RWHP and 25Ft/lbs. of TQ on a blown application.
Thanks! That seems much more realistic.

Two more questions for you. What is your SAE corrected rwhp at 5900, 6400 and 6900 and what's the correction factor? Thanks again.
 

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Blown46Cobra said:

Two more questions for you. What is your SAE corrected rwhp at 5900, 6400 and 6900 and what's the correction factor? Thanks again.
As for your question about HP at the different RPM's, sorry, but I'll keep that under my hat. ;) I know that you have been asking questions for awhile now, and I don't blame you as that is a big chunk of change to drop for a bolt-on but, TRUST ME, the intake works!!! Ask anyone who has one, I'm not the only guy on here that is running one. ;) The correction factor on a Cobra with the stock T-45 trans. is 17%.
 

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ALLNTRL,

I take it from the data you posted the "no loss of torque" is for 3k and above. Do you have any numbers from 1,500 to 3k?

Thanks,

Chris Yates
96 Cobra
 

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ALLNTRL said:
As for your question about HP at the different RPM's, sorry, but I'll keep that under my hat. ;) I know that you have been asking questions for awhile now, and I don't blame you as that is a big chunk of change to drop for a bolt-on but, TRUST ME, the intake works!!! The correction factor on a Cobra with the stock T-45 trans. is 17%.
Hey, you can't blame me for trying:)

I'm actually more interested in the information to compare it with my own modified intake/IMRC's and tuning. I got some numbers a while ago from PHP for a car with one of their intakes. It was stated that the car had the typical complement of bolt-ons in addition to the PHP intake, IMRC's, Chip, and FRPP TB.

Below is a comparison of two cars with stock intakes (Mine and C. Yates) with the above mentioned car with the PHP intake. I was at 11.8 a/f pretty much from 4000 rpm up so I think I could have made another 5rwhp leaning it out a bit.

SOTP, it feels like the intake and IMRC's are adding some serious HP from about 4500 and up. I'm waiting until I get a day with similar air (as the ambient conditions for the numbers below) to dyno it with the new intake and to do some tuning.

PHP Blown's NA C. Yates
Combo Combo Combo
5000 269 268 289
5100 273 271 292
5200 276 275 296
5300 281 279 299
5400 285 282 300
5500 289 285 302
5600 294 286 304
5700 297 288 303
5800 300 286 303
5900 303 288 304
6000 305 291 306
6100 306 291 305
6200 307 290 304
6300 308 288 302
6400 308 286 298
6500 307 282 296
6600 306 280 293
6700 304 278 290
6800 300 274 287
6900 296 272 285

SOTP, it feels like the intake and IMRC's are adding some serious HP from about 4500 up to 7K. I'm waiting until I get a day with similar air (as the ambient conditions for the numbers below) to dyno it with the new intake and to do some tuning. I did an experiment with various climate controlled pulls and found that dynoing at 65 degrees with nearly no vapor pressure (0.1) yields quite a bit higher corrected numbers than dynoing at high temp (86 degrees) and vapor pressure (0.5) and then correcting to SAE. About 11 rwhp in my case. That means that the operating parameters controlled by the computer are affected considerably by the ambient conditions.

Thanks again for the info. I just want to make sure I have some credible/consistent data before posting my results.

P.S. the correction factor I was referring to was your dyno SAE correction factor for ambient conditions, not for drivetrain losses.
 

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Dyno runs started at 2000RPM. The reason I started with 3000RPM is that is really where you start to see some difference. But, here are the 2-3K RPM gains. Avg. HP gain was 1.02 RWHP and Avg. TQ gain was 2.13 RWTQ So, see the difference is so small in the 2-3K range that I really count that RPM range as a wash. Anyway there are your numbers. :)
 

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Blown46Cobra, my A/F ratio is tuned to Avg. 12.8 thru the entire powerband. ;)
 

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Allntrl - thanks for the numbes. I'm still skeptical about the "value" of the intake. ; ). With a set of IMRC deletes and a tune I think you'll get more bang for the buck.

Blown46Cobra - I was pissed when engine #2 died on the way home from that dyno run. The next mod was going to be the deletes. Pretty sure 315rwhp could have been reached because I've dyno tested the deletes in the past (no tune) and gained 7-8rwhp. I should have all my old mods back on the new engine and be ready for more dyno pulls in a month or two. Engine #3 doesn't seen to be as stong (pulled 257rwhp stock). That means I need to find 50rwhp with LT headers, o/r x, pulleys, MAF and a tune. Keep us posted on your next dyno run with the deletes.

Thanks,

Chris Yates
96 Cobra
 

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Chris Yates said:
Allntrl - thanks for the numbes. I'm still skeptical about the "value" of the intake. ; ). With a set of IMRC deletes and a tune I think you'll get more bang for the buck.
I agree that the IMRC deletes and a tune are a better bang for the buck if you are Blown. However, on a N/A setup you will lose way too much low end torque for the 5-8 HP that you might gain with the deletes and a tune. With the intake, even though it is not gaining you much TQ down low, you are not losing any either. That's where the difference will be. But, look at the difference in the TQ even N/A in the upper RPM range, you won't gain that from the deletes and a tune on a N/A application either. The intake helps not to lose TQ down low, yet it provides very good gains in the upper RPM range as well. IMHO, it's money well spent!
 

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Chris Yates said:
Blown46Cobra - I was pissed when engine #2 died on the way home from that dyno run. The next mod was going to be the deletes. Pretty sure 315rwhp could have been reached because I've dyno tested the deletes in the past (no tune) and gained 7-8rwhp. I should have all my old mods back on the new engine and be ready for more dyno pulls in a month or two. Engine #3 doesn't seen to be as stong (pulled 257rwhp stock). That means I need to find 50rwhp with LT headers, o/r x, pulleys, MAF and a tune. Keep us posted on your next dyno run with the deletes.
Your #2 engine was definately strong. Hopefully, #3 is about the same as #2 once you get everything back on. The guys who built #2 must have given it a little more TLC than most engines :)

I'll definately post the results on the IMRC's and intake. I'm just trying to get a day with comparable conditions to the 'before' pulls. I can get some very impressive results by cranking down the A/C in the dyno room (not to mention icing the intake :) ), but that isn't really of any value for comparison. Unfortunately, our nice spring days (with great air) have turned to hot and humid (high 80's with 80+% humidity). Hopefully, we get one last cold front so I can do the 'after' pulls with similar air as the before pulls.
 

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ALLNTRL said:
You are looking at $2200-$2400 by the time you are done with everything. I gained 29 RWHP and 5.5 RWTQ with NO torque loss ANYWHERE!!!!! Those gains were using a BBK 62mm T.B. I have now changed to the Accufab single blade T.B. and I would say it picked the car up another 7-8 RWHP in the upper RPM range. Paul's intake does work but, it ain't cheap. It does work VERY well though for pissing off the local LS1 guys around here when they find out it's just a stock looking little N/A 281C.I. Ford. :D
If any N/A guys were seriously looking at spending this amount of $$ on an intake they would be better off on saving up another $1000-$1200 and putting on a Vortech kit and being done with the whole thing. I think at even a conservative rating of a 100 rwhp that's still a better deal. And oh yeah the labor between the 2 should be about the same if I remember right. Plus the above dyno # was achieved with a $350+ Throttle Body install-according to "Alltrnll". So basically for an extra $700-$1000 you can buy a blower and get way more than 29HP.. ( I guess it depends on how you want to spend your money though)IMO..
 

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Allntrl,

There's nothing about PHP intake that's increasing torque below 3k. That's all in the chip. If you have any doubt please remove the chip and make some dyno runs. You just don't gain low end torque in these cars by opening up the runners (and making them shorter) AND installing IMRC deletes.

Thanks,

Chris Yates
96 Cobra
 

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WILDPONY '98, I agree that for alittle more money you could put a Vortech on and make alot more power but, then it will just be a matter of time before a rebuild will be in order. Me personally, I prefer to make my power without a power adder. So, for me the intake was the next step. Plus, staying N/A I don't have to worry about the bottom end letting go. To each his own.

Chris, I didn't say that Paul's intake added torque below 3K. I said that with the intake you don't LOSE any torque below 3k. If you just added the IMRC deletes and a chip I am almost sure that you would lose a significant amount of torque in the lower RPM range on a N/A application. :)
 

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Allntrl,

maybe I'm confused, are the dyno numbers you're quoting with the following combo: Paul's intake, IMRC deletes and chip? I think that's the combo that gets talked about the most with respect to power gains. In that setup torque below 3k will suffer and any attempt to bring it back up is the result of the chip. Above 3k a certain portion of the gains are from the IMRC deletes and chip. That's what continues to be muddy. I have yet to see dyno numbers for the setup installed one piece at a time. If anyone wasn't to send me Paul's intake I'll dyno the following (same day, same dyno, same car) and post the numbers.

Stock intake
Stock intake + IMRC del
Stock Intake + IMRC del + tune
Paul's Intake
Paul's Intake + IMRC del
Paul's Intake + IMRC del + chip

Thanks,

Chris Yates
96 Cobra
 

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A couple of points on loss/retention of low end torque.

For comparison in low end torque numbers to be valid, the 'before' low end torque would need to have been optimized. If not, the time spent maximizing the 'after' low end torque may be showing gains associated with a poor 'before' low end tune (or not tune). Most tuners don't even start the pull until around 2500-3000 rpm and focus on mid range and peak power. Mods such as o/r pipes, MAF meters, etc can and does leave room for tuning in a little low end power via timing and/or fuel tuning.

Also, to some degree any loss in low end power (below 3K), is academic. In any performance driving/racing situation, the engine is never below 4500 rpm anyway. And as the typical NA 4.6 Cobra has 4.10 gears, minimum, even cruising on the highway at 80, the engine is nominally at 3K rpm.

IMHO, losing some power below 3K or so, isn't a big deal so long as I pick up power in the usable and practical powerband. If I'm spending a lot of time below 3k rpm, I'm not driving the car properly, IMO.

I do agree with Chris though on the tune adding back the majority of the low end gains. After playing with the tune for about a month since adding the deletes, I'm back to the about the same low end power if not a little more. I say 'about the same' because ambient conditions and dyno variation are greater than is the differnetial in the resulting numbers.
 

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Chris Yates said:
Allntrl,

maybe I'm confused, are the dyno numbers you're quoting with the following combo: Paul's intake, IMRC deletes and chip? I think that's the combo that gets talked about the most with respect to power gains. In that setup torque below 3k will suffer and any attempt to bring it back up is the result of the chip. Above 3k a certain portion of the gains are from the IMRC deletes and chip. That's what continues to be muddy. I have yet to see dyno numbers for the setup installed one piece at a time. If anyone wasn't to send me Paul's intake I'll dyno the following (same day, same dyno, same car) and post the numbers.

Stock intake
Stock intake + IMRC del
Stock Intake + IMRC del + tune
Paul's Intake
Paul's Intake + IMRC del
Paul's Intake + IMRC del + chip

Thanks,

Chris Yates
96 Cobra
I as well as others would love to see that comparo happen. Along with a HCI intake. Dont think it will happen but would like to.
 

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Chris, when my car went to Paul's it had the basic bolt-on's, exhaust, and had been tuned for the above combo with a custom chip. The before number's were with the stock intake (which included the BBK 62mm T.B.), and the factory IMRC's still in place. The after number's were with Paul's intake, IMRC Deletes, and Paul's chip, plus the same BBK 62mm T.B. as the car had when I arrived.
 
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