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Discussion Starter #1
I finally got out to the track to see if the swap from the longer runner R upper to Box R upper made any difference. This was at the Texas Motorplex yesterday and the weather was great with a negative DA and temps in the high 40's to low 50's but there was a strong constant head wind.

first pass:

60' 1.62
330 4.455
1/8 6.79 @ 104.95
1/4 10.52 @ 131.60

Previous best in similar conditions:

60' 1.606
330 4.469
1/8 6.83 @ 103.8
1/4 10.608 @ 130.37

Before the upper swap, it was typically run in the 10.7x-10.8x range and only once ran 10.6x. The rest of the passes I made were 1/8th mile as the class I was running was an 1/8th mile class and times were consistently in the 6.7x range and the MPH as high as 105.6.

These were all on stock 17x8 94 Cobra wheels with MT 275-40-17 drag radials. I am not disappointed with the results, but thought there would have been a bit more gain in the swap. Boost was about 18.5psi on the T-trim and running 18* on E-85 non inter-cooled. The logs showed a 3psi loss due to belt slip on the top end so I would guess that would equate to another 1-3 mph on the top end.

basic specs on the motor -
Dart 347 (4.125 x 3.25) 9.5CR
Ed Curtis Cam hyd roller
old Aussie Pro-topline heads (210cc 305cfm)
70mm FMS throttle body
1 3/4 MAC long tubes
3" exhaust with 3" tail pipes
T-trim
Holley EFI
3.73 gears 4R70W trans

The converter seems to be holding me back. it is a 9.5 UCC that is a 4,500 stall but only foot brakes to about 2k and flashes in the low 3k range.

I had not seen that many post of R to Box R results so I thought I would post my results.
 

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You need a trans brake. That will allow the converter to do what it was meant to do.
 

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Thanks for sharing the data. Always useful. I don't think you picked up more than 5-6 hp, if that. Look at the times/mph gain from the 1/8 through the 1/4 - less than 5 hundredths ET and 8 hundredths in mph. Really, nothing significant. I'm kind of surprised your car isn't faster, to be honest. I would expect trap speeds in the 138-142 range with your setup. I agree with Saleen414 - a transbrake launch is worth about .1-.15 reduction in 60' in my car over footbraking; but it still doesn't explain the MPH. What's the fallback on the converter (1-2 shift and 2-3 shift)?

Did you actually have the heads flowed or are those advertised numbers? As far as I can tell, they're the only part that might be holding you back from making the power you should. You could try a bigger TB, but I'm not sure that'll be worth much if anything. You've got a great intake, cam, headers, etc. On E85, you've got all the bases covered. I would start looking at the parts you have and seeing how you can maximize them. The only thing I'd do is put some real tires on the car, with skinnies on the front - if for no other reason than consistency. I think it's in there, you just need to find it.

What are the IATs throughout the run?

Have you weighed the thing? I'd expect 138 mph even at 3,600-3,700 lbs.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thanks for sharing the data. Always useful. I don't think you picked up more than 5-6 hp, if that. Look at the times/mph gain from the 1/8 through the 1/4 - less than 5 hundredths ET and 8 hundredths in mph. Really, nothing significant. I'm kind of surprised your car isn't faster, to be honest. I would expect trap speeds in the 138-142 range with your setup. I agree with Saleen414 - a transbrake launch is worth about .1-.15 reduction in 60' in my car over footbraking; but it still doesn't explain the MPH. What's the fallback on the converter (1-2 shift and 2-3 shift)?

Did you actually have the heads flowed or are those advertised numbers? As far as I can tell, they're the only part that might be holding you back from making the power you should. You could try a bigger TB, but I'm not sure that'll be worth much if anything. You've got a great intake, cam, headers, etc. On E85, you've got all the bases covered. I would start looking at the parts you have and seeing how you can maximize them. The only thing I'd do is put some real tires on the car, with skinnies on the front - if for no other reason than consistency. I think it's in there, you just need to find it.

What are the IATs throughout the run?

Have you weighed the thing? I'd expect 138 mph even at 3,600-3,700 lbs.
1-2 shift 7,400 - 5,900
2-3 shft 7,000 - 6,100

IAT at start were 172* and 200* at the stripe

The heads were CNC'ed by Livernois and the flow figures were from them. They were recently refreshed by Reher & Morrison.

The car weights 3,770 with me in it. I have also thought it is about 1/2 a second and at least 5-7 mph slower than similar combos. It made at 610rwhp a few years back.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
What do your plugs look like? You have no timing in the car IMO.
I am running NGK R5671A-7 plugs. The plugs look like new for the most part...not any discoloration. the straps look like it is discoloring almost all the way back to the body.

A few years ago when I was running pump/race blend I went through a few pistons and decided to take it easy on the timing when I went to E-85. I would guess I would be ok in the 20-21 degree range and I may give that a try next outing.
 

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Look here:
Stan Weiss' - Cylinder Head Flow Data at 28 Inches of Water -- DFW / FLW Flow Files for use with Engine Simulation Software

If you still have 2.02 valves, I don't really buy the 305 cfm deal. To give you an idea, I ported my own heads, and even breaking through a couple of pushrod holes and after three trips to the flow bench, the best I managed was 292 cfm with a 2.02 valve (originally they were old TW 170 heads). I collected the chips from my porting - took well over 100 hours and I had an entire bucket full of aluminum chips that I held on to for a couple of years because of the amount of work they represented. None of the Pro Topline 210cc heads on Stan's database that still have 2.02 valves do better than 277 cfm on real flow benches. BUT - and this is not insignificant - I don't think flow numbers are as solely important when you're boosted. Cross section is also very important.

For flow numbers, check this thread out:
https://forums.corral.net/forums/5-0-5-8-engine-tech/1048706-210cc-cnc-livernois-pro-topline-heads-flow-results.html

Bottom line - are the heads holding you back? I honestly don't know. But probably - the question is, are they holding you back 100+ hp? Doubt it. Then again, if you really dyno'd 610 rwhp SAE through the automatic, then you're making more than enough power. I dyno'd 561 rwhp (through a glide) and went high 9's & 138 mph at ~3,550 lbs (exact weight depends how much ice I have left in the cooler in the trunk - I usually start with 80 lbs, and it's all gone by the time I'm driving home).

I agree with wywindsor - your timing is soft. But your IATs are about what I was seeing before I went to an A/W intercooler. I run pump gas though - 93 octane. I can't really tell you how E85 tolerates IATs that high. I can tell you that pump gas and boost gave me uncontrollable detonation above about 180 degrees. I'm assuming your IAT sensor is in the stock location - as is mine. I have my EFI set to pull timing starting at 140 degrees; but I only run 18 degrees (intercooled) on pump gas. But I also made peak power NA at 28 degrees total timing. Don't know how much your heads need for peak power.

FWIW, the converter looks a little tight, but not much (if at all - I'd call it on the tight side of ok). You're doing the right thing with two shift points.

BTW - at what rpm did your engine make peak power? Seems like a lot of rpm for a hydraulic roller. I shift at 6,000 and go through the traps at 6,200 or so. N/A mine made peak power at 6,150, and with the blower the peak is significantly lower - not sure why, but the blower's undersized and I've been running shorty headers with the crappy ball/socket collectors - I've been in the process of installing Kooks longtubes for about two ice ages now to see if it's the blower or the exhaust holding my rpm back. With a centri blower like yours, I'd expect to opposite - to gain rpm for peak power. But 7,000+ rpm seems high to me.

Frankly, if your heads need 32 degrees for peak power and you're only at 18, that could be 100 hp going to 25; if the car will tolerate it without lunching a piston. I think you could get a low 10/high 9 even if you get some good wheels/tires and start maximizing what you've got. But pull plugs frequently - I've learned that lesson the hard and expensive way.

Sorry, that got longer than expected, but hopefully there's a few useful nuggets of info in there.
 

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Based purely on numbers and nothing else I think your axle gearing is off. If you are shifting at 7000-7400 I'd assume your peak hp is around that. Your tire height and 3.73 gear ratio are trapping out at about 6400. I think your leaving 500-1000 rpm on the table.
 

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I am running NGK R5671A-7 plugs. The plugs look like new for the most part...not any discoloration. the straps look like it is discoloring almost all the way back to the body.
.
I think you have to much fuel in the tune. When running E85 or Methanol as a fuel the spark plugs give you a very good look at the state of your tune. The beauty of the NGK plug is the plating on the plug threads. As a rule, you lean out the engine until the coating around the end of the plug dis-colors but no more than the first thread down. When you start getting discoloration of the plating on the plug, you are good on air/fuel. That is when you know you are getting temp in the combustion chamber, otherwise, if the plug looks like new after a pass, the cylinder is running to cold. E85 burns a lot colder than gas/race fuel. Now that you have air/fuel dialed in you start adding timing until the ground strap starts to discolor. You stop when the ground strap is discolored about halfway, or the bend in the ground strap. At that point your tune is pretty much good, and safe. You will go through a lot of spark plugs because once the plug colors, then it will not show any changes from the tune. And one the tune is set, you don't have to worry about changing plugs every pass.

I run E85 on a 9.2:1 compression SBF that is 358 cid. I run 21 psi after air/water I/C and have about 23* of timing in the engine. But I am making a lot more power than you currently are. Better heads, solid roller, 8k rpm ect.

Edit: FYI I run the NGK R5671A-8 plug
 

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Have you logged a pass yet? Did your IAT's pull timing? Did they add fuel? Same for the CTS and any other parameter you have set in the eec. Where is the timing at launch? Sorry about all the questions. But you may be leaving alot on the table. What are the afr's at. Post a timing and fueling table.
 

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you mentioned the converter, you might have rolled a sprag. a 4500 stall should get you more than 2000 on foot brake. your 60 ft. is not good, your mph is low for this combo and converter is pulling down alot on shift. i would send the converter back to lenny and get it checked/ restalled for your combo.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Based purely on numbers and nothing else I think your axle gearing is off. If you are shifting at 7000-7400 I'd assume your peak hp is around that. Your tire height and 3.73 gear ratio are trapping out at about 6400. I think your leaving 500-1000 rpm on the table.

Looking at the data log from that runs shows 6,900 - 7,000 at the finish.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Look here:
Stan Weiss' - Cylinder Head Flow Data at 28 Inches of Water -- DFW / FLW Flow Files for use with Engine Simulation Software

If you still have 2.02 valves, I don't really buy the 305 cfm deal. To give you an idea, I ported my own heads, and even breaking through a couple of pushrod holes and after three trips to the flow bench, the best I managed was 292 cfm with a 2.02 valve (originally they were old TW 170 heads). I collected the chips from my porting - took well over 100 hours and I had an entire bucket full of aluminum chips that I held on to for a couple of years because of the amount of work they represented. None of the Pro Topline 210cc heads on Stan's database that still have 2.02 valves do better than 277 cfm on real flow benches. BUT - and this is not insignificant - I don't think flow numbers are as solely important when you're boosted. Cross section is also very important.

For flow numbers, check this thread out:
https://forums.corral.net/forums/5-0-5-8-engine-tech/1048706-210cc-cnc-livernois-pro-topline-heads-flow-results.html

Bottom line - are the heads holding you back? I honestly don't know. But probably - the question is, are they holding you back 100+ hp? Doubt it. Then again, if you really dyno'd 610 rwhp SAE through the automatic, then you're making more than enough power. I dyno'd 561 rwhp (through a glide) and went high 9's & 138 mph at ~3,550 lbs (exact weight depends how much ice I have left in the cooler in the trunk - I usually start with 80 lbs, and it's all gone by the time I'm driving home).

I agree with wywindsor - your timing is soft. But your IATs are about what I was seeing before I went to an A/W intercooler. I run pump gas though - 93 octane. I can't really tell you how E85 tolerates IATs that high. I can tell you that pump gas and boost gave me uncontrollable detonation above about 180 degrees. I'm assuming your IAT sensor is in the stock location - as is mine. I have my EFI set to pull timing starting at 140 degrees; but I only run 18 degrees (intercooled) on pump gas. But I also made peak power NA at 28 degrees total timing. Don't know how much your heads need for peak power.

FWIW, the converter looks a little tight, but not much (if at all - I'd call it on the tight side of ok). You're doing the right thing with two shift points.

BTW - at what rpm did your engine make peak power? Seems like a lot of rpm for a hydraulic roller. I shift at 6,000 and go through the traps at 6,200 or so. N/A mine made peak power at 6,150, and with the blower the peak is significantly lower - not sure why, but the blower's undersized and I've been running shorty headers with the crappy ball/socket collectors - I've been in the process of installing Kooks longtubes for about two ice ages now to see if it's the blower or the exhaust holding my rpm back. With a centri blower like yours, I'd expect to opposite - to gain rpm for peak power. But 7,000+ rpm seems high to me.

Frankly, if your heads need 32 degrees for peak power and you're only at 18, that could be 100 hp going to 25; if the car will tolerate it without lunching a piston. I think you could get a low 10/high 9 even if you get some good wheels/tires and start maximizing what you've got. But pull plugs frequently - I've learned that lesson the hard and expensive way.

Sorry, that got longer than expected, but hopefully there's a few useful nuggets of info in there.
Alex,

Yes, they are a 2.02 intake. At the time (time flies...looked at when I bought them at it was 2009) they were advertised, Livernois ran their own CNC program on them. They advertised 303 CFM @ .550 intake and 227 @ .550 exhaust. I would be suprised if they flowed that much, but I am sure they flow decently.

The last few years I have been looking for that one bottle neck holding the car back as similar set ups seem to run much better. I switched from a Performer RPM intake (ported) to the R with only minute increases.....then onto the exhaust from 1 5/8 shorty and 2.5" exhaust to 1 3/4 long tubes and full 3" exhaust..little to no change. then the upper intake change with minimal gains.

I can't seem to find another restriction. When it was tuned on E-85, the TQ and HP peaks were oddly close together...HP peak 5,650 and TQ peak at 5,400. I am not pulling any timing based on IAT....and it is in the factory location, #5 intake runner. For the TQ and HP peaking that low, it runs faster at the higher revs. I would rather keep the revs below 6,500.

The cam specs are .576/.576 duration @.050 230* / 242*
Lobe separation 116* recommended centerline 112*
Power band of cam 3,000 – 6,900 (for 400ci). I am guilty of installing the cam dot to dot and did not degree it several years ago when I put it in. I may degree it in the next week or two just to eliminate that as a problem.

I have some 275 radial pro's on 15x9 rims but the diameter increase slows the car down several tenths the last time I ran them. The 275-40-17's don't spin however. I had pulled 1.59-1.61 60' all day long with the TKO 600 in the care on the same tire...really expected the auto swap to net big gains in the 60' which never happened.

Thanks for the recommendations, I appreciate it. I will try running the timing up a bit and see if there are any gains.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
you mentioned the converter, you might have rolled a sprag. a 4500 stall should get you more than 2000 on foot brake. your 60 ft. is not good, your mph is low for this combo and converter is pulling down alot on shift. i would send the converter back to lenny and get it checked/ restalled for your combo.
good suggestion. a friend's converter did that. if I am really hard on the brakes, I can bring it up to about 2,500 but it will start pushing the front tires through the lights.
 

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1 tenth and 1.3mph right off the bat on the first pass looks like 10-15 rwhp to me, and there will be faster passes if that was your first. Nice gain! Did you go from the 75mm to the 90mm TB with the swap?
 

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Good information, thank you for sharing. Your weight and mph suggests about 650 FWHP. The combination likely has alot left in it once sorted out. Big Bore 347 at 1.25hp/cube should be ~430FWHP NA. +18psi I would have estimated a conservative 850FWHP.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
1 tenth and 1.3mph right off the bat on the first pass looks like 10-15 rwhp to me, and there will be faster passes if that was your first. Nice gain! Did you go from the 75mm to the 90mm TB with the swap?
Thanks. no, I still have a 70mm TB.
 

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Really conservative on timing. I would add a degree at a time until it stops going faster.

On another note, you really need to degree that cam correctly.
 

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Can you lock the convertor up at the top end? Assuming it's not already locked up.

I realize the trap speed is not the same as the speed at the line, but trap speed rpm is 6400 with your tire size. You're either gaining 500-600 rpm in the last couple feet or your convertor is still slipping and the revs aren't getting to the ground.
 

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Install a Glide based trans and it would drop 75 lbs of weight off of the car and the Glide takes about 70 less HP to spin. Those 4R70W's are heavy.
 
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