[805MACH]

Hey guys, new member here but ive spent alot of time looking threw corral. Best source imho. So basically i bought a mach 4 months ago that had alot of issues,
Broken guides and timing related parts. I got a good deal on it. Then i bought a drop i. 99 cobra engine that i was told was good to go but it ticks like crazy. Long story short im in middle of sending my 9 thread mach heads to superior automotive engineering here in California after some debate of having mmr do my heads. The people at superior are family owned andhave been around over 50 years and have done plenty of our heads. Peformance valve job, new bronze guides, blending of bowls and some porting all for 1500 plus im going to send them up with set of btr racing springs.
I have to make a choice to either use my 99 cams or aftermarket stage 1s im not looking for lope i want it still smog able . Looking to lift the powerband to produce power atleast up 6800rpm and be able to hold it. I know nasvt has alot of info on this.
And i also have 4 10 gears for down low. Also i want to run flat top pistons and want around same compression as mach had. What pistons should i look at budget friendly. I have E85 right down the street so im looking to make the change to corn also so i can run more timing safely, and lastly im really interested in topping the motor off with nasvt short runner intake. Please let me know what you guys think. Im in California so im trying to make it a sleeper and still pass emissions testing. Possibly in futer run a votech with e85.

 

[SilverSmith82]

Any reason you aren't just supercharging it? There are blowers with CARB numbers and the factory Eaton swap is OEM so it'll pass too. IMO you are spending a lot of money that doesn't need to be spent like getting the heads ported etc... but that's up to you. These cars can be pretty quick NA but a guy with the same car as you and a stock motor/blower is going to wax you every time even with all this work. Also the company with the 3 letter name=naughty word. They're just a volume company that pumps out stuff as fast as possible. Have they produced a lot of good motors? Yes. Do they have a much higher than acceptable failure rate? Yes.

What I would do if I were you? Put it back together and if the shop has not done the porting and blending yet, tell them to just do a rebuild/clean up and nix the portwork. Stock crank, entry level I beam rods or boss rods, basic entry level $550 forged pistons and slap a supercharger on it with a CARB number.

Reasons:

1 - You'll make way more power, like way more as in about 350rwhp you will make with your setup vs 600+ capable with the blower setup.
2 - You can't run longtubes in Cali which you need to maximize a NA motor but with a blower you don't need them, stock manifolds are fine
3 - Cost of an entry level blower and fuel to support it is going to be less than NA cams and a short runner plus all that portwork
4 - You are talking about possibly doing a blower in the future anyway after doing all this. NA cams/short runner are not the best idea if you plan on going blower
5 - I see no talk on any suspension or chassis stiffening mods. That will need to be all done prior to any sort of decent power if you want a car that can actually use it

Suggest you hit the brakes for a second and see what you really want to do. If you really want to go NA then you do you but you'd be better off with a Coyote swap in that situation if its even allowed in Cali. It is going to suck for you when you do all this work NA and get all finished and some dude with a 160k mile stock 2V with a Vortech is as fast or faster than you are.

 

[805MACH]

I was told porting would help when i add a blower down the road. And for valve job and port it was half cost of said 3 letter agency lol.
One thing is i asked a smog shop about doing the eaton swap and the feedback is it wont pass becausr it is not factory on my car. I would definitely want to do the eaton swap if i could get it threw smog.
The 106100 cams were a deal. I know its not a blower cam but can it still be used on a mild set up and blower and produce decent results?
I planned on using cobra/manley rods. I apreciate the input definitely want to keep the compression up on it and wanting to use e85.
I have not sent the heads out yet because im still unsure best way to go on this motor.

As of right now i put a upr kmember and control arms, new coilovers with caster camber plates, and other miscellaneous suspension mods when i put the 99 motor in. Unfortunately it sounds like a ticking time bomb. I really apreciate your advice

 

[805MACH]

Also whats the highest compression you can run with a blower with how much boost? To achieve 600hp
Also e85 is going to be in futer for this car

 

[SilverSmith82]

You can make 600hp with stock compression no issue on E85 or premium pump gas. Do not do a build without first finding yourself a real good tuner and consulting them.

Any C heads in stock trim can make 600hp on a blower even the 99-02 versions. Not an issue there. Save your money. Factory Terminators hit 600rhwp with just a blower swap and that's with a real conservative setup. Any entry level name brand forged piston will do 600hp no issue and so will the entry level forged I beams. Stock cranks in manual Machs and all Cobras were Kellogg forged units although the cast ones in GTs/auto Machs are plenty strong as well.

Cams... you are in California... if it doesn't sound stock then you might run into issues. Any stock cams will hit that 600hp number on a blower with 0 issues. The 99 intake cams are more aggressive than the Mach ones. I'd sell off the aftermarket cams so you don't run into any potential issues with inspections.

If you got told from a reliable source that the Eaton swap would not pass then go with a blower with a CARB number. Pretty sure the Vortech is good to go in that category. I'd find out for sure from the actual inspection station what the engine swap rules are before proceeding.

I'd start by busting down both engines to parts and inspecting what you have and then go from there. You can sell off a lot of spare 4V stuff for a decent chunk of change back in your pocket plus those aftermarket cams. If it were me I would do those Mach heads, 99 cams, stock crank, i beams, forged pistons, stock compression and a blower.

 

[805MACH]

Will it hurt to bump the compression a little bit. Maybe 10.5.1
The whole reason i want to run E85 is more timing and run less boost to achieve
Those numbers instead of having alot of boost and less timing. My buddy has a 03 cobra and he is running 16 or 18 psi feels in the pants to be about 550 to the wheels. I want to achieve those numbers on lower boost. Im really interested in finding a kenne belle maybe a 2.6. Will i need the termi timing cove to do this? Is it worth it or should i go for a vortech. I live right next to vortech and let me tell you almost every cobra i see has one. Not trying to reinvent the wheel just want something a little different. Will the Cobra 03 rods work for my build. I can get those locally for 200$ in good shape. I have a tuner lol he said no to the cams and no to the port. Basically that it wont net me much for my set up And that lifting the compression a bit would be good with E85 fueling. Also whats advantage and drawbacks to boreing the cylinderd .20 over i have one block that has some wear on cylinders were the skirt made some contact . Also what pistons that are forged will be best for these tight tolerances. I had a forged engine before that would sound like piston slap when it was cold and then go away as soon as warm. Is there a piston that helps with this? Thank you i apreciate it.
Definitely not going to waist the money on port work at this point and some of the other ideals i had! Thank you

 

[805MACH]

Also as far as degreeing were should 99 cams be set at? Worth it to get an adjustable kit or just file my old gears down and shim with new chains and tensioners or ford racing kit?

 

[SilverSmith82]

Talk to your tuner about what you want to do. See what they are comfortable tuning. No advantage to boring .020 over really, its just the most you can safely go generally so the general advice is go over as little as you can for strength. .020 over is fine tho. 03 Cobra rods will work fine. You can get new Boss rods for the same price but the Manley Cobras are stronger. Degreeing the cams ask your tuner or if not check out what some other ppl have done. Every combo is different. The Cloyes gears were not available last time I checked but there were multiple cases of them either being a little loose or shearing teeth so if you want to be safe you file the stock gears and use pieces of a feeler gauge to shim till you get where you want. For forged pistons I like Diamond myself...

For an Eaton swap on a Mach there are threads all over with the extensive parts list. Parts are getting a little harder to find and the actual KB kits that were made for these cars are long out of production. Just off the top of my head for an eaton swap you need the Terminator cover, pulley bridge, pulleys, alternator brackets, hoses, intercooler pump, lines, manifold, heat exchanger, blower etc... etc... You can get a whole kit right now off of Parts Farm though, its $3k plus freight.

03-04 Ford Mustang Cobra Eaton supercharger swap kit 4.6 Mach 1 99 01 Cobra DOHC

This listing is a GOOD USED take off Eaton supercharger swap kit. This kit was removed from a 2003-2004 Cobra Terminator engine. Its purpose is to upgrade 99 01 Cobra 4.6 DOHC as well as 2003-2004 4.6L DOHC Mach 1. This is a VERY complete kit. The kit is listed below. Message me with any...

thepartsfarm.com

If you want a Termi style blower, this is the route to go. Everything all in one package, all the hardware, done. This is the route I would be going if I was in the USA still.

And again, at the power levels you are talking about you need to ensure the whole suspension in the car is set. Why I still have not done my engine build in my car. Did a FTBR IRS a few years ago and doing a full front setup next month. Gotta be able to put the power down.

 

[Quick Strike]

I have said .020" over Cobra with cams, CNC porting, over-sized valves, almost 10-1 compression and a 2.8L KB. I have about 100 hp over stock 4.6L Cobra engines with the same blower and pulleys using the same fuel.



.

 

[805MACH]

Well with ths insight and talking to a few neighbors one is a 99 v2 vortech and the othe a is a 03 with a KBell . My plan is to bump the compression around 10.1
I would be satisfied with 450 whp and a well set up suspension and. Good tires.
No roll racing for me. Two kids now so my Mexico street racing days are over lol.
Really thinking about pulling trigger on boss rods now because they are a good alternative and can handle 450whp without issues
10.1
Boss rods/manley coated pistons/ new oil pump
Are head studs necessary for my application? Or ford racing head change kit?
Mild port job/ blend bowls/ peformance valve job/new guides
New lash adjusters / btr springs/upgraded fors gt rollers
Stock timing degreed and shimmed with the 99 cobra cams. Whats best for these to be set up to pull on the top of the rpm as far as degreeing them. And do i need the tflow crank gears or do i just need to degree the cams?
Then after all this is set up and running i will be looking for a carb legal vortec with the cooler and just piece it together. Just got a new transmission in my other vehicle so finally i can tear into the mustang. I apreciate the advise. Those numbers are huge thats an awsome set up. Do i need oversized valves for my application or at the power level im looking at will it not be necessary.
I guess what i want to no on a good E85 tune ans the above set up 450 whp should be no problem and in the futer be able to turn it up a little more if i desire more power.

 

[805MACH]

Thats is a sweet torque curver 500ft lbs at 2000 rpm thats got to be a hell of a ride

 

[Quick Strike]

Thats is a sweet torque curver 500ft lbs at 2000 rpm thats got to be a hell of a ride

IMHO - You point out the main advantage of a twin screw over a centrifugal blower: instantaneous power at any RPM. It doesn't wind up to power. It has the power to wind!

My rebuild was the result of a clogged left cat. The extra heat that could not escape caused detonation breaking the pistons on that side at the top ringland. The loose piston tops smacked the head damaging the head. That opened the door to a lot of "while I'm at its" during the rebuild. Be careful of these as it is easy to get carried away. I sent the heads to that three letter company in CA for a CNC port, valve, spring, guide package and repairs at an unbelievably good price. They returned with the worst valve job ever (light showing through the valves at the seat) and chatter marks from a dull cutter used for resurfacing. I cant believe they let them leave like that. Did anyone even think about checking the quality of work? $400 later my local head porter had resurfaced the heads, re-completed the valve job and flowed the heads. The good news was the heads were flowing like any others with porting and over-sized valves. The lesson learned was to never get anything other then parts from that three letter company.

I would look at ARP 2000 for everything possible: head studs, main studs, rod bolts and side-bolts. That way everything is reusable and holds tight no matter what direction the build goes. Terminator guys are using the stock Manley rods with ARP bolts to over 1500 RWHP. I think you are on the right track with an oil pump with billet gears. I got an unused Melling reasonably from a guy that gave up on his project. An aftermarket damper would control vibrations better then the stock one when you start to have $ in an engine.

Blower/turbo pistons have a thicker piston crown and the first ringland is further down to provide greater strength and protection from heat (don't go cast). Try to use pistons in the smallest overbore needed as a .020" or certainly .030" overbore will be the last bore for these engines. Stainless top rings will take longer to seat, but will not fail or melt-out in the harsher environment of the SC/Turbo. Gap the rings for a SC/Turbo even if you go NA at first. The rapid heating of power adders expands rings faster then the cylinders. A tight gap would be fine in a NA car, but will cause ring butting with a power adder.

Blower and turbo cams generally have a wider separation angle between lobes then NA cams. Widening the lobe separation reduces overlap. Overlap can cause a reversion of heat and exhaust back into the intake tract when both valves are held open at the same time. In the turbos case, part of the exhaust power to turn the turbo is lost back into the intake with both valves open at the same time. This can cause the IA2 temperatures to climb and promotes poor driveability when not in boost. Wider lobe centers also cause the intake to close later in the cycle meaning less actual compression happens. You can add a little more mechanical compression to compensate for this. If you try to tighten the the lobe separation for a NA application with the additional mechanical compression optimized for a blower, the earlier closing intake will lead to detonation in the NA engine. All this to say, it is impossible to set up a cams for both applications and still be optimal for both. If you are thinking of a blower at some point use the compression and cams for the blower. Live with it until then. It wont be optimal, but it wont be bad. Blower cams are usually in the 114* to 116* lobe separation range, but you also need to check the duration numbers in relation to the separation to make sure there is not too much overlap.

HTH - Steve

 

[Quick Strike]

BTW - I used 93 octane with 48 oz of Torco in that dyno. I would raise the compression to 12:1 for E85 only, but could never use 93 octane again.

 

[805MACH]

Ive been busy at work and kids. I have not had a chance to update but the good news is the mach is in garage and ready be torn down. Update on transmission i got a line on a 6r80 and us shift 6 controller from a friend. Going to be pairing it with a lokar sport shifter. Also going to manuel rack wich im going to be ordering a kit to do all 4 breake lines and do the abs and hydroboost delete at same time. Going to be upgrading the brakes aswell. And run new steel fuel lines and do all bending myself. For e85 . Wife approved of me spending money on it if i promise to keep it on a track. So i will update this as soon as motors pulled and i have some ideal of what parts im using from the two engines i have.
Going to be building this myself in garage between me and a good machine shop im going to be sending my stuff out to. Im very excited i know its going to be a long project.

 

[805MACH]

Started pulling some stuff off and getting some ideals on wire tucking everything except the engine harness qich i am going to re loom and repair and extend a few plugs. Going to be relocating the battery in trunk along with adding a remote brake booster on fender and remove hydraboost snd replum ky brake lines with a line lock . Also im going to a manuel rack along with deleting the abs i think its going to look good and be functional. Im going to be painting the engine bay aswell so im excited and even if it takes a year to get fully done i plan on it being one of a kind.

 

[805MACH]

Body harness going to wrap with cloth tape and use split sleeve and zip ties with clamps on front of radiator support. Made good progress on this weekand but over all its going to be a while before its running.

 

[805MACH]

Motor is 6 bolts away from dropping down with the kmember. Turns out passenger side cats are plugged... hmmm windering if thats why i would here the tick in the passenger side near manifod mostly. Anyways as many times as i have opened this motor to find the issue everything has looked good. Ive had valve covers off numerous times while still in engine bay pita . Anyways just a update.