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I'm sorry that you're having a hard time lately Mark. I Hope you can find peace with yourself.
Don't worry about me, I'm a happy guy.


:) Holy cow . . . I am glad to see you are still here. When I first saw the conversation you and Goody were having about the new Trick Flow CNC'd heads I was thinking here are two guys who have learned a few things from their time on this planet. Why I opened my post with your conversation. May I ask if you ever got to play with them in the real world? What might you think about the 170 vs 190? Contrary to the common theme above, I came on here for actual advice. I know just enough to know what I don't know. I could use some real world knowledge from people who still ask questions and have some experience under their belts. I want to make a smart decision - and I know there are people who know things I don't know! And thank you for chiming in . . . I am honored.
E-mail him at Flow Tech Engineering and he'll get you exactly what you need. Just bear in mind that designing combination is what he does as a business.

Also, the casting from China have really gotten quite good because of Jason, Blueprint and others. The most commo difference between then and, say, an AFR is the deck thickness. Most Chinese heads had .500 decks and AFR's are .750

In the horsepower range you're running, that doesn't matter at all.
 

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Discussion Starter · #42 ·
Unfortunately my conclusion also. It's sort of pointless putting effort into a post when said poster just wants their decision making process reinforced.
BTW, since you obviously know - was I leaning toward the Trick Flow 170 or the 190? You don't know (because I haven't formed a final opinion just as I said), you are just uttering meaningless speculation because you don't want to help anyone - you just want to impugn someone's motives. If I had made my decision, I would have made my purchase. I came here for advice, not to be attacked. If you really believe my mind was already made up, why are you blowing smoke? You are stirring stuff up because that is what you do. Rather than attack me, just let it go and let someone who might actually answer my questions have input? What do you get out of this? What is your problem? You do not know me. From your comments, there is a lot of stuff you don't know. But if you have nothing to add that is constructive, why not drop it? I came here for INFORMATION - not your version of discount psychoanalysis.
 

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Most china heads. Are probably close to same head.
With some differences. Since my kids car is going to be faster. His friend of corse needs faster to.

So his friend dropped me off some afr 185 as cast heads to get my opion Brand new. Supposed to be 59cc. There not! There bigger. Not surprised. Dont ever assume with China or non cnc chambers are advertised cc. So angle cutting those. Probably to 10.2 or so. They flowed 2 cfm less than advertised here. They have a 4 angle vj. Not 3 as advertised. Valve is back cut to from. Afr.
pull the valves out and do some blending. On both intake and ex and ssr where plunge cut is, as no where near blended from afr.
Helped quite bit.i would say this is best bang for buck head. Alot more stable to. Manometer not bounce at 600 lift. Very simple to do. Plus 8mm valves lighter. Well worth the price imho

Can't straight cut any decent amount cc off without getting into top cut. So angle cut mandatory as comp is power, Long tubes headers a must.

may be able to 10.0 without getting into top cut on vj. Don't know answer to that yet. I don't want sink valves if angle cut to far. Kid doesn't have the money. So doing bare minimum.
.
 

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Discussion Starter · #44 ·
Don't worry about me, I'm a happy guy.

I just can't abide A-holes. You are a


E-mail him at Flow Tech Engineering and he'll get you exactly what you need. Just bear in mind that designing combination is what he does as a business.

Also, the casting from China have really gotten quite good because of Jason, Blueprint and others. The most commo difference between then and, say, an AFR is the deck thickness. Most Chinese heads had .500 decks and AFR's are .750

In the horsepower range you're running, that doesn't matter at all.
I have the Flow Tech site up in my browser - Bubba 2 sent it to me. Like I told Bubba if the creek don't rise I will talk to them tomorrow. I used to LOVE forums. I know I am new here but damn . . . My niece's old man is a great guy and an old school gearhead - he said the 190cc runner all the way, BTW. But as much as I love the guy he always thinks bigger is better! But he told me not to trust the Trick Flow rep - he is a salesman after all. So I tried the forums, going back to what I once trusted. The community of people who love motors and cars. But I guess the only help now is from a salesman. That is why I was asking. It is the whole picture that matters. Like you said - it is the combination that makes an engine sing. What works in one may hurt another. That is why my crate motor stomped the factory motor. It wasn't any individual component. And if I want gains over that I have I want to be smart rather than just throwing parts at it. And I have heard Chinese quality has improved - it had to. But you know, I felt kind of like I was lied to. I was told I was getting an all American product from the mid-west of the USA. And if Trick Flow is right, either one of the heads I am looking at will spank the BluePrint heads, I just want to hear that from someone who knows, and who has experience in which one is best. I never believed asking the question was some kind of sin!! Or too much info is a sin . . . Thank you so much for your input. And for hearing me out rather than judging me. :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #45 ·
Most china heads. Are probably close to same head.
With some differences. Since my kids car is going to be faster. His friend of corse needs faster to.

So his friend dropped me off some afr 185 as cast heads to get my opion Brand new. Supposed to be 59cc. There not! There bigger. Not surprised. Dont ever assume with China or non cnc chambers are advertised cc. So angle cutting those. Probably to 10.2 or so. They flowed 2 cfm less than advertised here. They have a 4 angle vj. Not 3 as advertised. Valve is back cut to from. Afr.
pull the valves out and do some blending. On both intake and ex and ssr where plunge cut is, as no where near blended from afr.
Helped quite bit.i would say this is best bang for buck head. Alot more stable to. Manometer not bounce at 600 lift. Very simple to do. Plus 8mm valves lighter. Well worth the price imho

Can't straight cut any decent amount cc off without getting into top cut. So angle cut mandatory as comp is power, Long tubes headers a must.

may be able to 10.0 without getting into top cut on vj. Don't know answer to that yet. I don't want sink valves if angle cut to far. Kid doesn't have the money. So doing bare minimum.
.
May I ask if you thought the CNC street ported Trick Flow heads would be a substantial gain over the Chinese heads? Trick Flow (I know, they sell 'em) tells me that is an easy minimum of 40 bolt-on ponies over my existing BluePrint heads. I figure the cost will come out to around $2,200 including pushrods and gaskets. It would be worth it to me to add 40 or more more horses and get American cast and ported heads. Any opinion 190 cc runner (56cc chamber) vs 170 cc runner (53cc chamber)?
 

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I look at the dynamic comp ratio. At valve lash. I do believe it's a useless number. But still look at it. Also look at coefficient discharge . Plus you have a small stroke. So spin it. There alot more to it, than gotta have that head.
If want more torque than hp buy a diesel
Least spin it to 6500. I don't get why guys on here build such low rpm engines sometimes.
 

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I look at the dynamic comp ratio. At valve lash. I do believe it's a useless number. But still look at it. Also look at coefficient discharge . Plus you have a small stroke. So spin it. There alot more to it, than gotta have that head.
If want more torque than hp buy a diesel
Least spin it to 6500. I don't get why guys on here build such low rpm engines sometimes.
Because they're just going to Buffalo Wild Wings for some Buffalo Dry Rib and a few cheese sticks?

Some people never turn 6,500 because they never turn 6,500.
 

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Lol, I’ll go out and buy long tubes if you can prove they’ll add at least 25 rear wheel horsepower to my 331.

10 horsepower is not worth the inconvenience of scrapping the ground all the time on a lowered Mustang.

Well here they made 16hp more on a pretty mild 351w. But 20ft/lbs below 4000 RPM. Personally that'd be all the convincing I needed. Other than heads there's not many single items that will give you that kind of performance gain. I guess a cam change could, but in my opinion if you get a bunch of power from a cam you just had the wrong cam for your combo at first. And the long tubes made consistent power everywhere while a cam might tilt the curve while adding power. I'm a carb guy though so I know nothing of the EFI manifolds and what they can do for you.

You spent the money on a stroker but then left AT LEAST 10hp on the table so you could lower your car. Ok, you got me there. Fundamental philosophical differences, so I can't really argue with that.
 

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Lol, I’ll go out and buy long tubes if you can prove they’ll add at least 25 rear wheel horsepower to my 331.

10 horsepower is not worth the inconvenience of scrapping the ground all the time on a lowered Mustang.
I have always taken the KISS method as my gospel. There are two questions that matter when doing a combination. 1> what platform are we talking about? 2> How much power do you need to make...at the flywheel?

99.9% of 302 based engines are fine with, using flow numbers, 270 x 200ish cfm. A less than .550 lift cam, whatever manifold, and shorties.

Not a panty dropper, but there it is. It's all desires and details from that point.
 

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I look at the dynamic comp ratio. At valve lash. I do believe it's a useless number. But still look at it. Also look at coefficient discharge . Plus you have a small stroke. So spin it. There alot more to it, than gotta have that head.
If want more torque than hp buy a diesel
Least spin it to 6500. I don't get why guys on here build such low rpm engines sometimes.
They build low rpm engines that they are most likely going to put in a street rod. When you have a car primarily for cruising, you simply don't need a engine that spins to 6,500 rpm's. Daily drivers even when they might see some stop light to stop light fun will still operate in the low to midrange area, something like off idle to 4,500 rpm. Torque is what gets your car moving, horsepower keeps it there. A car that's driven mostly as a cruiser will hardly see over 2,500 - 3,000 rpm's most of the time.
 

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Discussion Starter · #54 ·
They build low rpm engines that they are most likely going to put in a street rod. When you have a car primarily for cruising, you simply don't need a engine that spins to 6,500 rpm's. Daily drivers even when they might see some stop light to stop light fun will still operate in the low to midrange area, something like off idle to 4,500 rpm. Torque is what gets your car moving, horsepower keeps it there. A car that's driven mostly as a cruiser will hardly see over 2,500 - 3,000 rpm's most of the time.
I don't think you can build for everything. At least not without some of the newer computer controlled tech, and even then I have my doubts. When I first started looking for new heads, I started like many people I think. I was looking at different brands and articles where bench flow numbers were tested and compared. I picked out some of the best performers based on that (bench tests) and tried to find out more - and of course the heads with the best capacity for air flow ended up being those high RPM type full on race heads. A guy at Edelbrock was talking to me, and what he said sounded almost exactly like what you said above. He was telling me that yeah, you will blow away a lot of cars in the 3,000 to 8,000 RPM range - his word for the Victor Jr. performance in that range was "screams." LOL But he said for someone who drives their car to get around town and to run errands, it would be a little "sluggish" until you hit those RPMs. He said if you like to take off from a light with a little enthusiasm from time to time, you are going to get beat a lot! I have been watching my RPMs since I spoke with him. 99% of the time I am below 3K. When I do go above that going through the gears it is pretty brief. So designing an engine for those high RPMs seems like it would be counter-productive for most people - hurting your performance where you spend most of your time.
 

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More internet bovine feces to avoid if you want a successful build.

1) Flow numbers from advertisments...

2) Dynamic Compression Ratio (DCR=Designed to Create Retards)...



* carry on *
 

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They build low rpm engines that they are most likely going to put in a street rod. When you have a car primarily for cruising, you simply don't need a engine that spins to 6,500 rpm's. Daily drivers even when they might see some stop light to stop light fun will still operate in the low to midrange area, something like off idle to 4,500 rpm. Torque is what gets your car moving, horsepower keeps it there. A car that's driven mostly as a cruiser will hardly see over 2,500 - 3,000 rpm's most of the time.

6500 isn't anything. Do it right.
You will hardly know
 

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.6500 isn't anything. Do it right.
You will hardly know
This is true. Even cars built for the 6500-8000 rpm range will be driving normally from 2000 rpm to 4500 rpm most of the time. However, during some stoplight or highway fun you'll generally reach 6500 rpm extremely fast like it's nothing.
 

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This is true. Even cars built for the 6500-8000 rpm range will be driving normally from 2000 rpm to 4500 rpm most of the time. However, during some stoplight or highway fun you'll generally reach 6500 rpm extremely fast like it's nothing.
If you reach 6500 rpm's between stop lights then I'd say that you got competition gears like 4.11's and no overdrive.
 
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