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Discussion Starter #1
Combo is:
stock 302 shortblock
61 cc afr 165 heads (about 60cc after head surfacing)
vortech sci 6.87 3.12
Not a big cam, 16hg-ish at idle
2-3lbs @ 3500ish where meth comes on
6-6.5 lbs @ 5k
about 9 @ redline
Combo really done @ 5500 (old msd box pulling timing and me pulling timing as well)
snow 625ml nozzle pre compressor


So what should I do? Move Act sensor to discharge so I can better tune for saftey of methanol OR add a post compressor nozzle and use the factory location as planned?

My air fuel is already pretty rich @ low 11's with 0 degree washer fluid. I though maybe if I add another nozzle, I could just turn the screw on the meth controller to where it isn't spraying as much. Maybe being post compressor would help cool the iat a bit.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
kinda my thinking. I was told I may pressurize my meth kit if I go post compressor. Which I'm assuming would be bad. With a solenoid and a snow pump, I don't see how.
 

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kinda my thinking. I was told I may pressurize my meth kit if I go post compressor. Which I'm assuming would be bad. With a solenoid and a snow pump, I don't see how.
Who told you this...? Methanol is used post compressor all the time. You will see gains either way, though a dual nozzle setup with a small nozzle pre-blower and larger post blower would show the best gains. There is a one way check valve in most systems to prevent pushing methanol back through the lines under boost, but that would work even with the system shut down. Those pumps operate at 50+ psi, and most can be turned up. You wont make enough boost to pressurize the system while its running.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I didn't think about it but, yeah. these have a check valve as well.

So I guess the consensus is to run both nozzles.

So are we buying the flow meters for protection?
 

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I didn't think about it but, yeah. these have a check valve as well.

So I guess the consensus is to run both nozzles.

So are we buying the flow meters for protection?
Thats what the ACT is for. It should pull timing if the methanol quits working and temps rise. Also, not many have had much luck with the failsafe/flow meters working for very long. The only one I would trust would be Aquamist.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Yeah the flow meter just seems like something else to tear up.

My problem with using the act is it is pulling timing when the meth is working.

I am pulling timing at 176. If say my air temp is at 180, like after a restart, my act will go down to 170 with the meth. Then when I let off the throttle, it goes right back up past 176 and then back down and then back up and then back down. That is dumping a lot of hp throwing 2 degrees at is like a light switch. Which sucks.

The grey line is my act. Red is TPS. I guess it is doing exactly what it should but, I just wish it would stay below 176 instead of coming back up.

Maybe putting a nozzle post throttle body would keep the blade from shutting off the methanol and then let the manifold pressure do it?
 

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Yeah the flow meter just seems like something else to tear up.

My problem with using the act is it is pulling timing when the meth is working.

I am pulling timing at 176. If say my air temp is at 180, like after a restart, my act will go down to 170 with the meth. Then when I let off the throttle, it goes right back up past 176 and then back down and then back up and then back down. That is dumping a lot of hp throwing 2 degrees at is like a light switch. Which sucks.

The grey line is my act. Red is TPS. I guess it is doing exactly what it should but, I just wish it would stay below 176 instead of coming back up.

Maybe putting a nozzle post throttle body would keep the blade from shutting off the methanol and then let the manifold pressure do it?
Youre still seeing 170 with meth injection? what mixture are you using? You may need to step up the nozzle size, and definitely put a dual nozzle system in. A progressive controller would definitely help here.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
yes, I don't see over a 10 degree drop. I was using -20 but then switch to 0 when i bumped it up to the 625ml nozzle. I have a stage 2 snow kit
 

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yes, I don't see over a 10 degree drop. I was using -20 but then switch to 0 when i bumped it up to the 625ml nozzle. I have a stage 2 snow kit
What are your temps without the methanol injection on wot?

You need more methanol in the system. The water will be lowering combustion chamber temps but you wont necessarily get the cooling effect in your intake tract, it doesnt evaporate as quickly as the methanol.

Add a small nozzle pre-blower, switch back to -20 or even boost juice or another 50/50 mix, and take some fuel out of the tune up top. It should run a little rich with methanol, thats your margin of error for in the event it does fail.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I will take a look at it. I really don't have another boss to put another nozzle in pre-compressor
 

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well...I found a another egr block off plate so, I took a drill bit and put a hole in it, then screwed in the 625ml nozzle. I do think it helped, especially while switching gears but, I am still not seeing big drops in air temp. Looks like running a two nozzle system is a must for really really cool air temps.
 

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well...I found a another egr block off plate so, I took a drill bit and put a hole in it, then screwed in the 625ml nozzle. I do think it helped, especially while switching gears but, I am still not seeing big drops in air temp. Looks like running a two nozzle system is a must for really really cool air temps.
After doing a little more research and talking with some friends who use W/M, water will drop the temperature the most. If youre ok with fueling, then run 100% distilled water.

You need your largest nozzle post-compressor, only use a small one pre-compressor so it doesnt go and heat up your cooled air again.

Also, check your ACT sensor, pull it out and clean it and stick it back in. Make sure it is flush with the manifold. I gained some ACT drops with having the sensor bottomed out, actually saw more airflow that way.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
thanks for the help. I got to looking, my act sensor is wrapped in thread tape and only ran in a few rounds. I bet that is a lot of the issue for sure.
 

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If this was a new Water/methanol kit, then the vendor you bought it from, failed in terms of customer service. If you bought it used, then you should consult with Snow Performance or maybe a forum.

Nozzles: Are rated at 60psi but flow a lot more because pump pressures are higher than that. The more nozzles you add, the less pump pressure you have, so keep that in mind when adding more nozzles. Nozzles sizes are based on boost levels and engine HP.

Fail-safes: Safe Injection uses a flow meter to measure fluid. It will react a lot faster than any IAT sensor, hence why you should always use a flow meter as a failsafe and not a sensor.

Fluid: Windshield washer fluid is not regulated and the concentration of methanol can vary greatly from gallon to gallon. Consistency in Methanol concentration is important for power and safety. Buy Boost Juice or make your own with distilled water and Methanol. Methanol can be purchased from local race track, certain gas suppliers or VP Race fuels https://vpracingfuels.com/product/m1/

Water/Methanol ratio: 50/50 is recommended for most applications. For lower IATs, I would use no more than a 25/75 ratio of Water/Methanol.

Pre and Post Injection: On your setup, pre-injection is not needed. All you're doing is lowering pump pressure needlessly and using more fluid.

I hope this helps
Michael Plummer
 

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Discussion Starter #16
If this was a new Water/methanol kit, then the vendor you bought it from, failed in terms of customer service. If you bought it used, then you should consult with Snow Performance or maybe a forum.

Nozzles: Are rated at 60psi but flow a lot more because pump pressures are higher than that. The more nozzles you add, the less pump pressure you have, so keep that in mind when adding more nozzles. Nozzles sizes are based on boost levels and engine HP.

Fail-safes: Safe Injection uses a flow meter to measure fluid. It will react a lot faster than any IAT sensor, hence why you should always use a flow meter as a failsafe and not a sensor.

Fluid: Windshield washer fluid is not regulated and the concentration of methanol can vary greatly from gallon to gallon. Consistency in Methanol concentration is important for power and safety. Buy Boost Juice or make your own with distilled water and Methanol. Methanol can be purchased from local race track, certain gas suppliers or VP Race fuels https://vpracingfuels.com/product/m1/

Water/Methanol ratio: 50/50 is recommended for most applications. For lower IATs, I would use no more than a 25/75 ratio of Water/Methanol.

Pre and Post Injection: On your setup, pre-injection is not needed. All you're doing is lowering pump pressure needlessly and using more fluid.

I hope this helps
Michael Plummer
Thanks, that does help.

I did buy it new a few years ago but, I didn't have quarterhorse then, just a sct tune. Thus, I never asked any questions.

Screwing in the ACT helped a lot. I saw over twice the drop in air temp.

Ambient Temp: 82
Humidity: 86%
Ect: 184
Air temp before 3rd gear pull: 174
Air temp after 3rd gear pull: 156
Air temp after tb closed on third gear pull: 152

I guess I am going to call that a success.
 

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What are your temps without the methanol injection on wot?

You need more methanol in the system. The water will be lowering combustion chamber temps but you wont necessarily get the cooling effect in your intake tract, it doesnt evaporate as quickly as the methanol.

Add a small nozzle pre-blower, switch back to -20 or even boost juice or another 50/50 mix, and take some fuel out of the tune up top. It should run a little rich with methanol, thats your margin of error for in the event it does fail.
You seem very knowledgeable about meth injection and have given some good advice. I do, however, disagree about cutting fuel "up top". By "up top" you mean WOT i'd assume. If meth injection makes your AFR rich in boost and you cut fuel out of your fuel table then what happens if the meth injections fails and you instantly go LEAN in boost? Using the ACT as a fail safe will not help you quick enough if your lean in boost. You'd need a better fail safe like table switching. It's recommended to not adjust your fuel table if your rich, you're supposed to reduce the amount of meth being injected by either running a smaller nozzle or reduce the amount of meth in your mixture. You want the max amount of cooling while keeping your AFR's unchanged or at least very close to it.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
You seem very knowledgeable about meth injection and have given some good advice. I do, however, disagree about cutting fuel "up top". By "up top" you mean WOT i'd assume. If meth injection makes your AFR rich in boost and you cut fuel out of your fuel table then what happens if the meth injections fails and you instantly go LEAN in boost? Using the ACT as a fail safe will not help you quick enough if your lean in boost. You'd need a better fail safe like table switching. It's recommended to not adjust your fuel table if your rich, you're supposed to reduce the amount of meth being injected by either running a smaller nozzle or reduce the amount of meth in your mixture. You want the max amount of cooling while keeping your AFR's unchanged or at least very close to it.
That is really impossible to do unless just adding the meth kit for safety. Adding timing will lean an engine out. For example, I tuned my engine to run up top with 11.8 afr with 20 degrees of timing. Once I added the meth kit, my air fuel was down in the 10s. Once I added 4 degrees of timing, my afr was right back in the 11s again. And apparently I am spraying a way bigger nozzle with this 220psi pump than I should be.

Being in the low elevens with this 625ml nozzle now, if I switch to the 375ml nozzle and remove 12 degrees of timing, my air fuel will be down in the mid 10s.

I do plan to remove fuel with the 625 nozzle but, it will be by turning the meth down on the controller. Theoretically, having a 625 nozzle in there with the controller set to 19lbs will throw less fuel than the 375ml nozzle set to be full stream at 9lbs. As long as there is enough juice to kick my solenoid open, I should be able to tune it that way now.
 

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timing has no affect on the amount of fuel mass

it might affect combustion, and hence what your WB reads........

this is a classic case of being fooled

the WB says nothing about the air to fuel ratio, just the products of combustion

a misfire may be reported by the WB as lean, but in fact the real air to fuel was rich

YOU need to see what the ECM commands and compare to the WB, that is its only value.

be very careful when using a WB, understand what it measures.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Hence the reason my car needs more fuel than others advertise. 12.5 out of boost around at 3200 and 3800 is a bad feeling in my car. Bring it down to 12.0 and it is good.

I have the bosch sensor with my wideband. Apparently they are all the same seeing how the SCT dealer/tuner air fuel numbers matched mine perfectly.

and no, I am not going to match lambse's to my wideband at 24 degrees without meth when it matches perfectly at 20 degrees without it. I don't have forged pistons and this is a daily. I can't risk 93 octane costing me an engine.

I apologize for my old school 3500 hp pro mod way of tuning but, I am just not going to do that way
 
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