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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Just testing the waters.

We all know that CARB has not assigned a number to the coyote crate engine. Despite the fact that this motor is cleaner than the 4.6 and way cleaner than the venerable 302 and despite the fact that it's the same motor in brand new Mustangs, CARB seems to be playing the "No it all".

Who would be willing to crowdfund (go fund me, or whatever it's called) a consultation with a lawyer to determine whether there is a basis to stay the CARB ban on coyotes? I'm not actually asking for funding, just gauging the level of interest.
 

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What exactly is the claim? CARB will not issue a number to Ford for the Coyote? Has Ford tried to get a number for the engine? Do you have "standing" in this claim? How are you "injured" by the supposed actions resulting in this claim? These are questions you will likely be considering.

I suspect this has more to do with Ford not pursuing the number than CARB not being willing to issue the number. Gm set out and obtained the number for the LS engines for pre '96 cars/trucks. Laws changed in '96 and pretty much ended the idea or swapping anything into anythign didn't already have that engine available already. Swapping a 2003 4.6 4V into a 2003 V6 car is ok. Swapping a 5.0 DOHC into...say a 2005 car is not. Swapping an engine into a vehicle that never had that option is a no-no. Say you want to swap a fully compliant 5.0 DOHC into a 2012 Focus. That would be technically not allowed even if you took the greatest of care and preserved ALL the emissions functions and made it even cleaner than it was when stock. Still no good.

Over the next 10-20 years if it isn't from the factory or '95 and older, it won't get modified and less and less of it will happen and the hobby will see a continued shift in it's path. And sadly I think it will shrink as the cost to play will go up even more. It will become too expensive for the average guy to justify.

Unless some sort of change is enacted to allow the hobby some room to grow, the future is looking bleak. Personally I have never understood why taking a 5.0 (for example) and putting it in a Ranger while making the whole thing meet the clean air tolerances was is an issue. If clean air is the goal, and the vehicle is as clean as the law requires, what difference does any of how it does it matter? So long as it is legitimately clean and not some kind of cheat.

I think the hobby would explode again if people knew what they had to maintain and the limits they had to stay within for emissions. If you built a 460W SBF with twin turbos that still hit the tail pipe emissions targets, who cares? The air is still as clean as it would have been otherwise.
 

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What exactly is the claim? CARB will not issue a number to Ford for the Coyote? Has Ford tried to get a number for the engine? Do you have "standing" in this claim? How are you "injured" by the supposed actions resulting in this claim? These are questions you will likely be considering.

I suspect this has more to do with Ford not pursuing the number than CARB not being willing to issue the number. Gm set out and obtained the number for the LS engines for pre '96 cars/trucks. Laws changed in '96 and pretty much ended the idea or swapping anything into anythign didn't already have that engine available already. Swapping a 2003 4.6 4V into a 2003 V6 car is ok. Swapping a 5.0 DOHC into...say a 2005 car is not. Swapping an engine into a vehicle that never had that option is a no-no. Say you want to swap a fully compliant 5.0 DOHC into a 2012 Focus. That would be technically not allowed even if you took the greatest of care and preserved ALL the emissions functions and made it even cleaner than it was when stock. Still no good.

Over the next 10-20 years if it isn't from the factory or '95 and older, it won't get modified and less and less of it will happen and the hobby will see a continued shift in it's path. And sadly I think it will shrink as the cost to play will go up even more. It will become too expensive for the average guy to justify.

Unless some sort of change is enacted to allow the hobby some room to grow, the future is looking bleak. Personally I have never understood why taking a 5.0 (for example) and putting it in a Ranger while making the whole thing meet the clean air tolerances was is an issue. If clean air is the goal, and the vehicle is as clean as the law requires, what difference does any of how it does it matter? So long as it is legitimately clean and not some kind of cheat.

I think the hobby would explode again if people knew what they had to maintain and the limits they had to stay within for emissions. If you built a 460W SBF with twin turbos that still hit the tail pipe emissions targets, who cares? The air is still as clean as it would have been otherwise.
That ain't the goal, the goal is power at this point. It may have started well intentioned but you know how that old saying goes...

This article is great and points out just how much CA has meddled in our pudding, I wish they would secede

https://www.ericpetersautos.com/2019/07/30/the-california-tax/

He gets it like no other automotive journalist does.
 

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Sadly, yeah, I know that the goal really isn't to have clean air. It's about controlling the manufacturing and after sale modification of the cars.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
What exactly is the claim? CARB will not issue a number to Ford for the Coyote? Has Ford tried to get a number for the engine? Do you have "standing" in this claim? How are you "injured" by the supposed actions resulting in this claim? These are questions you will likely be considering.


Unless some sort of change is enacted to allow the hobby some room to grow, the future is looking bleak. Personally I have never understood why taking a 5.0 (for example) and putting it in a Ranger while making the whole thing meet the clean air tolerances was is an issue. If clean air is the goal, and the vehicle is as clean as the law requires, what difference does any of how it does it matter? So long as it is legitimately clean and not some kind of cheat.

Firstly, Ford said they might submit to the CARB proce$$ in 2020. That tells me that they're selling enough crate coyotes that they don't care about potential lost sales in Ca.
Secondly, as you said, it's not about clean air. CARB wants the coins from FoMoCo before it will hand out an eight digit number. They know for a fact that the engine will pass smog, they just want payolla.


My letter to CARB:
I notice recently that internet businesses will not sell a Ford Coyote engine to California residents.
I understand the binary nature of "either it has a CARB number or it doesn't".
My question is: "If I were to buy such a motor and replace my older engine, which does not run as clean, and I install and maintain all smog equipment that a brand new Mustang has, and I pass a referee's inspection and a smog test, can we get a CARB number assigned to the engine?
Since many Mustang owners have already done a "coyote swap", including all smog equipment, referee approval, and passed "the sniffer", why haven't you just declared the motor to be approved?
Please explain.

Respectfully,
Victor Marshall
Isn't it clear that I asked "since so many coyotes have passed smog, why don't you just assign a number?" Then I asked for an explanation.


Their response:
ARB Helpline
12:50 PM (6 hours ago)
to me

Hello Victor,
CARB numbers are granted to the manufacture once they have completed certification for a product, it is not given to an individual. For your question about the engine change and smog check, you will need to contact the referee directly for assistance. They can be reached at (800) 622-7733.
Thank you
... sounds like they profoundly didn't understand the question.
 

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I don't know. The response tells me they issue the CARB number to the manufacturer not the individual. To accommodate the individual they have the referee system.

Reading between the lines Ford has not pursued the CARB number. Under the rules of their game, they can't issue the number unless Ford wants it.

You want to blame CARB, when it's Ford that is to "blame'.
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
CARB engaged in a bureaucratic trick, the Webster's Fallacy: Tell the person that the word he used means something else, thus change the meaning of his request. Then deny his request.

Of course I was asking about a CARB number for the crate engine.

The spirit of the law goes back to when Holley, Eddlebrock, TrueFlow, et al would make a new part. Prior to sale, they would pay CARB $$ to test the part on an otherwise stock engine in a given model. Likewise the automobile manufacturers would have to pay CARB for approval to sell their new models in California. This is all ok so far.
The twist is that Ford is selling stock motors, identical to the ones CARB measured and approved for sale. Furthermore all the hobbyists who have done the coyote swap had their engines measured and they passed as well. There is no logical reason why CARB shouldn't just assign a CARB number to the crate engine. That's all I'm saying.
 

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Unless some sort of change is enacted to allow the hobby some room to grow, the future is looking bleak. Personally I have never understood why taking a 5.0 (for example) and putting it in a Ranger while making the whole thing meet the clean air tolerances was is an issue. If clean air is the goal, and the vehicle is as clean as the law requires, what difference does any of how it does it matter? So long as it is legitimately clean and not some kind of cheat.
The problem is for every one guy that actually does a swap and maintains clean air, you have 20-30 guys who laugh at that and rip off all forms of emissions control devices.


But i agree that it doesn't make sense. I'm contemplating a Factory Five Cobra build, and am having trouble finding a way to get a Coyote under the hood of it here in MA. It's actually easier to put a 302-based motor in and get it legal vs a coyote crate engine, which is cleaner. Go figure.
 

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But i agree that it doesn't make sense. I'm contemplating a Factory Five Cobra build, and am having trouble finding a way to get a Coyote under the hood of it here in MA. It's actually easier to put a 302-based motor in and get it legal vs a coyote crate engine, which is cleaner. Go figure.
Is that because a kit car needs more inspection to get road certified? They never look under the hood of my car.
 

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Is that because a kit car needs more inspection to get road certified? They never look under the hood of my car.
Yes. It's the nature of kit build. They don't inspect the car, but they look at the paper trail. Everything needs a receipt or have a donor title to ensure no stolen parts. I'm still in the researching process for this as this is a few years out. Need to finish my fox build first while i debate what drivetrain i even want to do in that car. Part of me wants to do a 96-98 Cobra donor.
 

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Yes. It's the nature of kit build. They don't inspect the car, but they look at the paper trail. Everything needs a receipt or have a donor title to ensure no stolen parts. I'm still in the researching process for this as this is a few years out. Need to finish my fox build first while i debate what drivetrain i even want to do in that car. Part of me wants to do a 96-98 Cobra donor.

I feel you there. I'm used to stressing about a "paper trail" at work. They don't care about whether the mail gets delivered promptly and customers are happy. They do care that the mountain of paperwork and policies all look good, when accounting is done at the end of each day, each pay period, year etc. They are looking at computer screens and statistics, then deciding if we did a good job. "Oh you are complaining about it being so hot in Summer and wanting to leave earlier in the morning. Next week we have a new policy, we're changing your start times, so you come in 30 minutes later."


If I could start over with my Lincoln project, I would put in the new Coyote engine and 6R80. Regardless of what any emissions law said, I'd do what I wanted to. I don't play emissions games, thus I won't ever live in CA or any socialist society.
 

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We all essentially live under the rule of CA as long as the manufacturers continue to capitulate with cafe regs and such.

Grab a copy of Marx’s 10 tenants of communism and do a side by side with the us gov what you’ll find is a lot of them being checked off, as in all of them.
 

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We all essentially live under the rule of CA as long as the manufacturers continue to capitulate with cafe regs and such.

Grab a copy of Marx’s 10 tenants of communism and do a side by side with the us gov what you’ll find is a lot of them being checked off, as in all of them.
I'm sure at some point, "regulation creep" will make it more difficult to keep older vehicles on the roads, especially when automated vehicles start becoming common.

Will i be alive to see it? Who knows, but i have a feeling that the country in 100 years will be a lot different than it is today.
 

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.... but i have a feeling that the country in 100 years will be a lot different than it is today.
On the 4th of July the wife and I took the kids to Detroit to The Henry Ford and Greenfield Village. If you have not been, Greenfield Village is a collection of houses and buildings form the early 1900's. You could say the village represents the US as of any year from 1910 through 1927 roughly. That's a hundred years ago. It's amazingly different than what we know now. In 100 years very little will be recognizable to what we know now.

Also The Henry Ford is an amazing museum of Americana. Definitely worth a visit.
 

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CARB is federal law for all 50 states. If any vehicle does not meet the CARB standard it fails US emissions. There are no exceptions. If your state is negligent in doing a full CARB inspection as many are it still does not make it legal or emissions compliant.
 
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