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Discussion Starter #1
I have been thinking about this lately. I have seen GTR's with turbo charged engines anywhere from 500 hp all the way up to 800 hp AWD, Vettes with 5 to 600 hp, Vipers with gobs of power, ect.. It got me thinking, what would be a good hp/torque number for most cars running at the road races? At some point, you could have too much power and be breaking the tires out of corners on acceleration, not enough brake in corners, ect.. I am sure it is going to depend on class but lets say a car like mine, street driven, full Griggs suspension, manual TKO 600, Baer brakes all around and weighs 3240lbs. Or you could use your own car, just state mods and why you feel that particular power number is best for you.

I would guess around 600 hp and 550 ft lbs torque or so to get around most everything on the track in a lot of the classes. Thoughts?

Ed
 

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How big of a tire do we get? I think your 600HP guess is in the park with a good r comp 305/35-17 or similar sized tire. A 13 inch 4 piston brake set up in front would be nice.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
How big of a tire do we get? I think your 600HP guess is in the park with a good r comp 305/35-17 or similar sized tire. A 13 inch 4 piston brake set up in front would be nice.
Your decision Curt. Just explain why you feel that number is right.
 

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are you racing in a specific class or time trial group. those have a power/weight ratio to base classes on. see below.

if you are just doing HPDE track days. i got around just fine with a 3750 lb car including driver with 420 whp. which only ocasionally a vette or something would pass me
really depends on the weight of the car for the amount of HP you want.

for time trials
Time Trial 1 (TT1) = “Adjusted Wt/Hp Ratio” equal to, or greater than 5.50:1
Time Trial 2 (TT2) = “Adjusted Wt/Hp Ratio” equal to, or greater than 8.00:1
Time Trial 3 (TT3) = “Adjusted Wt/Hp Ratio” equal to, or greater than 10.00:1

or american iron has the following
The “American Iron” (AI) class has a strict 9.5:1 (9.5 pounds of vehicle weight per each horsepower) power to weight ratio maximum and 9:1 (9 pounds of vehicle weight per each foot-pound) torque to weight ratio maximum as measured at the rear wheels. All vehicles that compete in this class may have less than the specified amount but may not exceed the 9.5:1 and 9:1 HP & TQ ratios, unless specified in the Table 6.1 below, . Vehicles that exceed these ratios must race in the American Iron Extreme (AIX) class (Section 6.2). The absolute minimum weight for a V8 (and larger) powered AI car is 2700 pounds with driver. The absolute minimum weight for 4 or 6 cylinder powered AI cars is 2400 pounds with driver.
NOTE – See Section 7.8 (Brakes) for power rating adjustments per the following table
Table 6.1
ABS TYPE
POWER LEVEL
None
9.00:1 HP / 8.50:1 TQ ratio
Any OEM ABS (except 2005+ Ford)
9.25:1 HP / 8.75:1 TQ ratio
2005+ Ford ABS Only
9.50:1 HP / 9.00:1 TQ ratio
 

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Discussion Starter #6
02 roush stage 3,

Based on those formulas you posted, I am sitting right around 9.2 or so.

I guess I was originally talking about Track Night stuff though I mentioned classes. I am a newbie, I admit it. I realize it is a pretty general question. I guess I am just kind of getting educated on what others think based on personal experiences. If I were to have an engine built or power adder added to my current 347, NA or power adder, the sky is the limit on power so what would someone shoot for based on their combination, driving on the street and what they have experienced racing their car? Mike Post asked me this when he tuned my car and said a blower would work great on my car for streetability and racing...how much power do you want? It got me thinking.

Is 600 hp and 550 torque too much, not enough or just right? For me and my combination mentioned, I am thinking that would be just about right for Track Nights and to run with the group and have fun, but still be streetable.
 

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I guess I was originally talking about Track Night stuff though I mentioned classes. I am a newbie, I admit it. I realize it is a pretty general question. I guess I am just kind of getting educated on what others think based on personal experiences. If I were to have an engine built or power adder added to my current 347, NA or power adder, the sky is the limit on power so what would someone shoot for based on their combination, driving on the street and what they have experienced racing their car? Mike Post asked me this when he tuned my car and said a blower would work great on my car for streetability and racing...how much power do you want? It got me thinking.

Is 600 hp and 550 torque too much, not enough or just right? For me and my combination mentioned, I am thinking that would be just about right for Track Nights and to run with the group and have fun, but still be streetable.
What you should do is spend your money and effort on seat time and learn how to drive. How many track days have you done, and be honest.
 

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I guess I was originally talking about Track Night stuff though I mentioned classes. I am a newbie, I admit it. I realize it is a pretty general question. I guess I am just kind of getting educated on what others think based on personal experiences. If I were to have an engine built or power adder added to my current 347, NA or power adder, the sky is the limit on power so what would someone shoot for based on their combination, driving on the street and what they have experienced racing their car? Mike Post asked me this when he tuned my car and said a blower would work great on my car for streetability and racing...how much power do you want? It got me thinking.

Is 600 hp and 550 torque too much, not enough or just right? For me and my combination mentioned, I am thinking that would be just about right for Track Nights and to run with the group and have fun, but still be streetable.
Your a newbie, and you want to race a 600hp mustang... Stop

go get on the track with the current engine setup, it will open your eyes.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
What you should do is spend your money and effort on seat time and learn how to drive. How many track days have you done, and be honest.
I just did my first one on 24 May and loved it. And why do you think I would lie about it?

I do plan on spending more time and money on track time but I work overseas 8 months or so a year, it is hard to make that happen. I am signed up for another when I get back home in August and will try and make another up at Road America as well, so that should be three this year before the snow flys; unless I can find others when I am home.

I have a plan about where I want to be with this car and my capabilities eventually and am educating myself with the help of others that I hope have answers and can help. Seat time and more power are my goals this year.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Your a newbie, and you want to race a 600hp mustang... Stop

go get on the track with the current engine setup, it will open your eyes.
LOL, this made me laugh. Thanks.

I am pretty sure you are the one that said my car is going to scare the crap out of me the first time I take it to the track? It didn't, it made me want more. You are correct, it did open my eyes and it showed me I want more power. The car handles and brakes very well, but on the straights, I could not catch and pass one of the turbo BMW's and that is where I am allowed, at this level, to pass them at Blackhawk Farms.....so I am going to get more power and am looking for that happy medium. Not sure what model it was but he said he had a turbo on it. I also want a faster accelerating car out of corners, so I am thinking I need more lower rpm torque. Wrong?

Also, after every session the SCCA guy took all us novices aside and talked with us to help educate us. It was AWESOME! One of the things he stated was one of the ways you get better, is by pushing yourself out of your comfort zone. I never felt uncomfortable out there or scared. I actually thought it was boring at times when I had to drive slower due to cars ahead of me that I could not legally pass due to the rules. However, when I pulled in behind a turbo BMW to get seperation from them and started running with this guy (he had track time but it was 10 years ago and he was just getting back in it), it really opened my eyes to my car, my inabilities and what I think I need to improve myself as a driver and my car. I hung with him but in the straights he kind of pulled me a bit until I got up to speed, then I closed the gap, but could never get enough speed to pass him.

Another thing that night that was cool was when I spun out chasing that BMW. I was pushing my limits and know it, and I learned. I was black flagged and the SCCA guy asked me with a smile, what I thought I did wrong, I told him I took that corner to fast, trying to catch the BMW. He said, "Yes" and laughed and left it at that. I thought that was pretty cool. Nothing negative from him, just wanted to make sure I realized my mistake and left it there.

I am happy with my cars handling and braking but want more power to pass the turbo BMW's on the straights. Thus a thread like this.
 

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LOL, this made me laugh. Thanks.

I am pretty sure you are the one that said my car is going to scare the crap out of me the first time I take it to the track? It didn't, it made me want more. You are correct, it did open my eyes and it showed me I want more power. The car handles and brakes very well, but on the straights, the turbo BMW's were hard to catch and that is where I am allowed, at this level, to pass them at Blackhawk Farms.....so I am going to get more power and am looking for that happy medium. I also want a faster accelerating car out of corners, so I am thinking I need more lower rpm torque. Wrong?

Also, after every session the SCCA guy took all us novices aside and talked with us to help educate us. It was AWESOME! One of the things he stated was one of the ways you get better, is by pushing yourself out of your comfort zone. I never felt uncomfortable out there or scared. I actually thought it was boring at times when I had to drive slower due to cars ahead of me that I could not legally pass due to the rules. However, when I pulled in behind a turbo BMW to get seperation from them and started running with this guy (he had track time but it was 10 years ago and he was just getting back in it), it really opened my eyes to my car, my inabilities and what I think I need to improve myself as a driver and my car. I hung with him but in the straights he kind of pulled me a bit until I got up to speed, then I closed the gap, but could never get enough speed to pass him.

Another thing that night that was cool was when I spun out chasing that BMW. I was pushing my limits and know it, and I learned. I was black flagged and the SCCA guy asked me with a smile, what I thought I did wrong, I told him I took that corner to fast, trying to catch the BMW. He said, "Yes" and laughed and left it at that. I thought that was pretty cool. Nothing negative from him, just wanted to make sure I realized my mistake and left it there.

I am happy with my cars handling and braking but want more power to pass the turbo BMW's on the straights. Thus a thread like this.
If you can drive a 600 hp car to its limit then you are in the wrong career and need to go get a job with a professional race team.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Right now I am enjoying running my car on a road course and learning as I go. No one has talked about these 'limits' and no one mentioned it at the track night in our debriefs. What was mentioned by the professionals that were there (assuming they were professionals) was to drive beyond my comfort zone, what lines to work on driving, when to brake, ect., to help become a better driver and run quicker around the track. Not sure what all that entails yet but I did push it to my current limits and actually ended up spinning out.

Are you driving your car to it's limits?
 

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Focus on your road course skills before you make big investment in HP; Higher HP in road racing equates to higher likelihood something will break and more dollars to keep it running. After running few years in NASA American Iron, I made switch to NASA Spec Iron Class - 2005-2010 Mustang GT's with stock motor (only engine mods allowed is Ford Racing CAI and Ford Racing tune). The class is a blast - My HP is in low 280's and TQ in low 290's.
 

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Hate to say it, but I see an unfortunate case of Group 2 Syndrome in the not very distant future.

You want to know what the world's most effective power adder is?

Corner exit speed. Think on that a while.



.
 

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500-600hp cars are rare when it comes to actual race cars the average guy races on track but "enthusiast" always seem to think more power is what makes them faster. Someone posted the American Iron Specs, another driver runs Spec Iron which has less HP and less other "mods" as well. I race in CMC (Camaro Mustang Challenge) which is an older class with a little less HP than the other classes mentioned above. We're allowed 260HP and must be over 3,150 lbs in an SN95 (other cars have slightly different weights).

I started DE weekends in a modified SRT8 and had a blast. I could blow by nearly everyone on the straights. I too was looking into making the car even faster still when I realized W2W racing was what I wanted to do. I went from a 400rwhp car to a 260rwhp car and have dropped my lap times by 5-10%. I'm running mere inches (or closer) to other cars as we compete for position. For me, I'm in a car that cost roughly $7,500 and don't sweat it if the thing gets a scratch or dent. Plus, the car has a full cage and all the safety gear so I'm willing to push the car even a little bit more. While the other classes mentioned above are faster than I am, Spec Iron cars cost 2X-3X what I spent on my car and American Iron cars can be 3X to 10X what I spent.....and only run 2-5 seconds a lap faster than i do.

The reality is running with cars of similar capabilities is actually what you're craving (it took me awhile to realize it too). These cars could all have Briggs & Stratton engines but if they are all the same, it's FUN! You say your getting "pulled" in the straights but see if you could actually get on the gas a little sooner to make up the difference? Enthusiast rarely look at the cheapest/easiest way to make their cars faster........improved driver training/skill!

Good Luck....have fun!

EDIT: I just noticed the post above was editted while I was typing......and says the same thing I mention in the end!
 

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A month or so ago, I was able to hang within 1 second with of a pair of camaros on a 2.1 mile road cours, one a 2016 Z28, and another a 2016 ZL1. How the hell can a 275 RWHP 3450-lb foxbody on 235-width R-comps hang with these 500-700 hp monsters with huge tires and brakes? Corner exit speed. Slower in means later apex means straighter exit means earlier on the gas means a mph advantage all the way down the straight.
 

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Ideal horsepower would be as much as you can handle and for me, the answer would be "tons."

Why do the open track guys wimp out on power when the drag race guys get to play with tons of power??

The FR500GT with a mere 550 HP is a nice place to start


And forget about nonsense such as "upgraded brake lines and pads." At the higher end of the power scale, 14 inch rotors and fixed multi piston caliper brakes are a bare minimum requirement.

For the crazy HP junkie, Ferrari has s show up and drive program where you can get behind the wheel of 800+ HP V10 F1 car. This one is my bucket list for sure.


One more example of crazy open track power under the "too much is never enough" department is an Australian enthusiast who open tracks a Holden sedan with 1200 HP 727 cubic inch motor!!!

http://www.australiastoughestcars.com.au/news/gups-727ci-holden-hsv-1200-hp/
 
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