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Discussion Starter #1
Post too long? Don't want to read? BUY THE H model!

I'm going on a rant to hopefully spare others the same nonsense I just figured out. I'm sure I'm not the first person to deal with this, and I'll take my beating as I'll call out below, but I'll be damned if this isn't some nonsense.

Here we go:

Doing an H/C/I swap. Cam/timing chain are in and on. Heads are on. One header is on, but somehow misplaced the gasket for the other. No sweat, I'll drop the lifters in and work on the timing cover. NOPE.

I go to drop the lifters in and only like 2/3 will drop in. The others are somehow too tall? But these are factory replacements according to LMR.

But wait, there's a difference in models (and of course price). Yep, I knew that when I ordered. I won't be spinning this engine past 6k, so I didn't get the more expensive ones. And since LMR says the cheaper ones are direct factory replacement, that shouldn't be an issue, right? WRONG. They AREN'T DIRECT REPLACEMENT. I seriously want to punch LMR's website in the face right now.

Let's examine the two models of lifters. There's one letter difference between the two:

M-6500-R302 ($119)
versus
M-6500-R302H ($169)

I'll refer to them as "non-H" and "H" for clarity.

On the non-H page, I quote:

"These Ford Performance stock style replacement lifters are a direct replacement for the factory lifters in 1985-1995 Ford Mustang 5.0L. These M-6500-R302 rollers are a hydraulic tappet design with a roller tip so they make almost no noise and free up some power in the process. These are compatible with stock or aftermarket roller cams only and use stock or aftermarket 5/16 pushrods. They are not for use with flat tappet cams. If you are building a roller block from scratch, or any of the FRPP 5.0L based short blocks, use these lifters with the roller cam of your choice and an FRPP lifter retainer kit M-6253-A50. For higher revving engines, take a look at the M-6500-R302H as they allow for an additional 200-300RPM to the top of the rev range. These hydraulic lifters can only be used with roller cam compatible blocks. They cannot be used if retrofitting a non-roller block to a roller cam."

Sweet! It says DIRECT REPLACEMENT FOR THE FACTORY LIFTERS.

But then further below they sneak this BS in:

"These lifters are 1/16" (.0625") taller than stock. Removal of heads is necessary for installation. Lifters M6500R302H does not require the removal of the head for installation."

ARE YOU EFFING KIDDING ME? WHO WANTS TO REMOVE THE HEADS TO INSTALL FREAKING LIFTERS?????? AND WHY DO YOU SAY THEY ARE DIRECT REPLACEMENT IF THEY'RE NOT?????


So as you also see in that note, the more expensive H version are ACTUALLY the same height as the factory lifters, and they'll rev (slightly) higher.

Needless to say, if I had known that, I would have just spend the extra $60 to begin with and been done with it. BUT NOOOOOOOO.... :(

I have now ordered the H model from Amazon so I can get them here before the weekend and keep going on my assembly.

I know, reading is fundamental and I should have caught it originally when I bought the first set of lifters. But hell, the non-H set explicitly said they were DIRECT REPLACEMENT, so I skipped the rest of the tech info down the page. Yep, my bad, send me hate mail and laugh. I may deserve it for not reading, but I'll be damned if it's not ridiculous to call the non-H lifters direct replacement but then include a note that pretty much says "well, they aren't actually, so....". That's horse##### in my opinion.

And yep, I broke out the calipers and measured. They are of course taller. And also note the change in the shape of the head around the roller itself. The non-H model is much larger and isn't beveled. No wonder it's a pain in the arse (and not possible) to install them without removing the heads. I still don't understand why anyone would want to put themselves through the BS of removing heads to swap lifters should it be necessary.

Here's the pics so you all can see. Lesson learned on my part, hopefully nobody else has to go through this crap.


Pic #1 - Factory lifter that came out of my car. It's 2.515 inches long.

Pic #2 - The non-H Ford Racing NOT FACTORY REPLACEMENT lifter. It's 2.538 inches long

Pic #3 - Comparing the two roller tips. Note the gigantic difference in how the bevel is cut on each one. Also note the difference in (what I'll say is unnecessary) shrouding of the roller itself.

(I don't know why it inserted the first two pics upside down, but you get the gist anyway)
 

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In for the discussion. I have set of the non-H versions i bought for the same reasons as you did. Haven't installed yet but heads will be off anyway.

I have yet to measure for pushrods, but i was going to use a stock lifter that was modified into a solid lifter to measure. Now i need to rethink my technique if these are in fact longer than the stock pushrod. I assume the pushrod cup has also been moved out in relation to the original lifters.
 

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I have been running aftermarket heads since the early 90s. Every set of heads I had would not allow removal or installation with the heads on. Unfortunately I learned this the hard way.
 

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I have never had a problem removing and installing stock lifters with numerous different heads.

I will have to look, but I have a set of non h and had no issue with 11r heads.

I replaced a set of aftermarket lifters with the non h because the aftermarket set were not beveled and I could only remove maybe half of the lifters. I figured the issue was the bevel. I will measure as I still have the non beveled liftersand compare to stock as reference.
 

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Lifters

some kind of strange ..I changed cam and Lifters and never had to take heads of (edelbrock performer heads) there was one lifter a bit tricky to get in but no problem at all... also have both kind of Lifters R302 and R302H and as you can see in the pic ..they look same and have exactly the same length left is the R302H and right R302...
 

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I've #### my pant a few times thinking I couldn't get a lifter in with the head on, then I walked away and came back a while later and was able to finesse it in. some were very tricky.
 

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One thing I did notice is,in both ads,the same picture is being used.IOW- one lifter isn't taller than the other.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
One thing I did notice is,in both ads,the same picture is being used.IOW- one lifter isn't taller than the other.
I do agree though that it looks like LMR is using the same photo for both lifters which is TERRIBLE on their part, especially given that they call out the difference in height (even if they do so poorly IMO).

I can't tell for sure though as there's no way to compare them side-by-side in a measured fashion unfortunately.

To any regard, I'll have the H version here later today from Amazon and will take some more side-by-side measurements with the non-H lifters I already have. We shall see what differences there are first-hand!
 

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Discussion Starter #9
some kind of strange ..I changed cam and Lifters and never had to take heads of (edelbrock performer heads) there was one lifter a bit tricky to get in but no problem at all... also have both kind of Lifters R302 and R302H and as you can see in the pic ..they look same and have exactly the same length left is the R302H and right R302...
My eyes may be deceiving me, but the one on the left looks a smidge shorter and the bevel looks slightly more angled. That's *exactly* what I need to get them in without pulling my heads.

Do you by chance have a caliper set to measure and compare the lengths definitively? I'd love to know!
 

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How are you able tell the height of the lifter from looking at two different photos without a ruler in them for comparison?

I do agree though that it looks like LMR is using the same photo for both lifters which is TERRIBLE on their part, especially given that they call out the difference in height (even if they do so poorly IMO).

To any regard, I'll have the H version here later today from Amazon and will take some more side-by-side measurements with the non-H lifters I already have. We shall see what differences there are first-hand!
One thing that led me to my conclusion was I downloaded the picture shown in the Non H ad then when I tried to do the same with the H ad picture,a popup asked if I wanted to download the same (Non H) picture again, which indicates they're the same.Another thing was how both lifters show the same amount of shrouding of the roller.Much more of the roller should be visible on one lifter compared to the other.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
One thing that led me to my conclusion was I downloaded the picture shown in the Non H ad then when I tried to do the same with the H ad picture,a popup asked if I wanted to download the same (Non H) picture again, which indicates they're the same.Another thing was how both lifters show the same amount of shrouding of the roller.Much more of the roller should be visible on one lifter compared to the other.
I edited my post because it came across kinda snarky which wasn't my intent. My bad.

But you're right about the images. That's lazy on their part. Ugh.

I can't wait to get the H version later today and measure. I really hope they work.
 

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I edited my post because it came across kinda snarky which wasn't my intent. My bad.

But you're right about the images. That's lazy on their part. Ugh.

I can't wait to get the H version later today and measure. I really hope they work.
No snarky taken.Lol.Just to make sure I listed the correct info,I went to Summit and AM and checked both lifters against their images.After doing this,I noticed an even bigger difference between both lifters.The Non H style look totally different from the H style.

**Non H**
1) no ridges between the two lifter bore contact points
2) the lifter body has a grainy finish *i.e.- vertical lines are visible on the entire lifter body
3) the pin hole recess area is triangular and not uniform

**H**
1) two raised ridges between the two lifter bore contact points
2) the lifter body has a somewhat smooth finish *i.e.- the metal grain isnt visible
3) the pin hole recess area is round and uniform

*BTW*
The image shown in both lifter ads,on LMR,is the H style lifter.The Non H style isnt shown at all.

*Images Below*
1st pic= Non H
2nd pic= H
 

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I went and took a pic of my NON-H lifters. They don't look like what's pictured above in post 12
 

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I went and took a pic of my NON-H lifters. They don't look like what's pictured above.

You are correct and I am mistaken.Ive just been on various sites and a different lifter is shown depending on site.Fords site shows the same image you just posted,so apparently there are different images being used for the same style lifter depending on which site you choose to click on.I bumped my previous post as to not cause further confusion.Wish these companies would post the correct images vs just choosing a image out of a hat then posting it....
 

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I did go measure them, and also got similar measurements to post 1

2.515 for stock lifter

2.547 for the non-H.


Glad I saw this post as I would have measured for pushrods incorrectly
 

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I just searched Summit Racing,American Muscle,CJ Pony Parts,Jegs,Performance Parts.Ford & National Parts Depot.They all show the correct image for the R302-H lifter.Three show an incorrect image,two show a correct image and one shows both a correct & incorrect image for the R302 lifter.

Performance Parts.Ford & Jegs= correct image
American Muscle,CJ Pony Parts & Summit Racing= incorrect image
National Parts Depot= correct and incorrect image
 

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I did go measure them, and also got similar measurements to post 1

2.515 for stock lifter

2.547 for the non-H.


Glad I saw this post as I would have measured for pushrods incorrectly
So just to update on my comment sinve this thread came up in a search and since I recently got around to putting my combo together.

With my TFS170 heads on, I was actually able to remove and install my taller non-H lifters. There was an undercut on the underside of the head that made this possible. This may never different with other heads though.

Second, while the body is longer, it did not translate to a longer pushrod lenght calculation. The pushrod cup is deeper. I compared an original and one of the non-H lifters and took make measurements with reference points and it appears the extra recess of the cup compensates.

Photo of the two on the base circle of the cam. You can see the longer body, but deeper cup

That is all. Carry on
  1. 8494EDC7-9353-43B6-902F-47FB95EE3A69.jpeg
 

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Hey guys, I was wondering if there was any resolve to this issue. Im going through the same exact scenario right now, however I purchased the H lifters and they look just like you Non H lifters. Only about half of them actually go in. The ones I pulled out were the stock factory smooth lifters and have no ridges on the side. Currently I am sending them back and I have ordered a set of non H off amazon that I am hoping will work. They seem to have the older picture just like summit and LMR have with the smooth sides. I really do not want to pull the heads which are the TFS170s so Im not sure how you got yours to work? The only other possible lifter I have seen that looks like the factory ones that are smooth with the beveled roller area edge are the Crower 66335 but they are NOT cheap!
 
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