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Discussion Starter #1
Why don't people chill there meth and spray it to lower the IAT's ? I ran a test with a spray gun awhile back with meth at room temp. and chilled in a cooler of ice. Both were sprayed on a thermocouple hooked to a fluke 83. I lost the results and will try this again. If memory serves me correct the temps were about 60 degrees cooler.

So on the next test I will spray air temp, meth at room temp and meth at about 34 degrees. Is this a bad way of testing IAT's?
 

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Are you talking about the typical 50/50 mix, or straight methanol?
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I used 100% meth on the test. I have ran both in the car. 50/50 and 100%. The car ran better with 100%. I have yet to chill the meth and run it. car is getting a make over.
 

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Most folks who run straight Meth as a primary fuel do not run any coolant because Meth burns so cool and you have to run so much of it that getting temp in the engine is a problem. I know using it as a "cooler" for IAT's is different, but would be surprised if cooling the Meth in the real world would be beneficial. Spraying it on a thermocouple in a static environment is maybe not a accurate test. If you do try in on a running engine, please post the results. Will be interested too see end result.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I have ran the AIS system on my roots blower setup with good results. I took the IAT's from 240 to 120. This was a 59/50 mix at ambient temp. I bought a holley efi system that will run 16 inj. I was toying with the idea of running 4 extra inj. when I come into boost or the load gets above say 100%. I'm trying to get the cooling effect and somewhere close to E? for fueling. Whatever the car wants.
 

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I know the GN guys warn about spraying meth when air temps are 70* or below b/c it doesn't atomize well enough. The cooling affect also is determined by the evaporation of the meth not just the temperature of it. The cooler the meth the more difficult it may become for it to evaporate.

ks
 

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Discussion Starter #7
One thing I think people forget about meth. Most sprat enough to lower IAT's and no more. this may be the standard for snow or whoever. I spray for performance. I commanded a 12.4 afr to get a 11.2 when spraying a 50/50. I have yet to determine the best afr for my combo. I blew up the last getting greedy on the timing. my lst combo liked 11.2 on 91 with no spray. I ran 12.4 lambda with the meth to get 11.2. car picked up from 11.67 to 11.30.
 

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Snow Performance rates the amount of 50/50 mix of water/methanol on boost levels and horsepower, it has nothing to do with IATs.

I hope that helps
Michael Plummer
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I call a foul on spraying for hp and boost. The efficiency of the blower will determine the heat it makes per pound of boost.


Please explain why one would spray the same on 2 different blowers or turbos and one would make more heat and less power? * 8#'s of boost on a 250hp motor will make around 375hp with low IAT's. Bring up the IAT's and what happens. Like I said before. I tune to make the most power. Not the way snow or other do. I remove fuel at different loads and let the meth make up for it. I also add timing from where the higher IAT's were. So if I was 240 before and now 120 I can add a ton of timing.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I went to snow and read their tuning method. They base the there setup on HP Boost and temp. Just what AIS does. They shoot for a 12.1 afr base and add 50/50 till they see quench. I do the same with about 12.4 afr commanded only after my fueling is correct. I shoot for 11.2 or what ever the car wants. Then pull fuel back to 12.4. I live at elevation and get away with murder for timing. Way more than the factory will allow. Snow say's your tuner can provide what it needs if the eec doesn't.
 

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I know the GN guys warn about spraying meth when air temps are 70* or below b/c it doesn't atomize well enough. The cooling affect also is determined by the evaporation of the meth not just the temperature of it. The cooler the meth the more difficult it may become for it to evaporate.

ks
Coincidentally enough, my car pings when meth hits and its cold out.
 

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I went to snow and read their tuning method. They base the there setup on HP Boost and temp.
Where does it state that they measure IATs. Snow Performance states you take your engine HP and Boost levels to select a nozzle size. That nozzle size injects "X" amount of 50/50 fluid, blah, blah, blah. If you have a way to measure IATs great but if you don't then what do you do?
 

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At first glance it sounds like a waste of time or the benefit would be insignificant. Like water, the benefit of running alcohol comes from when it changes state from a liquid to a vapor in the combustion chamber. When it changes state it absorbs heat from the surrounding air. The measure of this process in thermodynamics is called the enthalpy of vaporization. Methanol is not all that different from water in this respect. With water it typically takes five times the energy to change to vapor as it does to heat the same amount of water from 0 to 100 Celsius. So if you chill your methanol and change the temperature by 50 degrees you may see something like a 5% increase in effectiveness.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Warren Johnson and a few other pro stock guys use to talk about the cooling effect of the IAT from the AF mixture. One article was about the fuel injection losing about 60hp from this. They called the BS on how nhra states where to put the fuel inj and throttle body size and so on. No R&D for the real racer.

The article was why I came up with the idea.
 

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Warren Johnson and a few other pro stock guys use to talk about the cooling effect of the IAT from the AF mixture. One article was about the fuel injection losing about 60hp from this. They called the BS on how nhra states where to put the fuel inj and throttle body size and so on. No R&D for the real racer.

The article was why I came up with the idea.
Someone can correct me if I am wrong on this but I believe the difference he is describing is because of the mechanical way in which a carb puts fuel into the engine. An injector obviously injects the fuel. With a carb the fuel gets drawn into an engine through the venturi. A venturi uses a low pressure area to draw fuel out of the bowl of the carb. Because when you lower air pressure a liquid has a lower boiling point the fuel coming out of the carb vaporizes and you see some of the effects of enthalpy of vaporization. The gasoline enters a vapor state and cools the incoming air charge.
 

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I've chilled methanol.

If you are running lower boost 8PSI it works or if you have 10 foot of plumbing.
Once I got past 15 PSI of boost on my 3 feet of plumbing, it didn't work. Temps went up. I chilled the methanol with both ice and dry ice.

Problem 1: The methanol didn't have time to Evaporate ( you get cooling from evaporation). At 15 psi + the air speed in that tube is over 350 MPH.
Problem 2: Nozzle type and placement. If you look at spray nozzle video it looks really pretty, big wide atomized cone. In a tube with 350 mph air, it doesn't.

The meth kits are sold as knock control. Reduced IAT temps are an added benefit.

FYI if the methanol get HOT bad bad things happen
 

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I know the GN guys warn about spraying meth when air temps are 70* or below b/c it doesn't atomize well enough. The cooling affect also is determined by the evaporation of the meth not just the temperature of it. The cooler the meth the more difficult it may become for it to evaporate.

ks

I've been running methanol for fuel for many years, and this is absolutely true! It doesn't evaporate very well below about 60°F. It puddles in the manifold, in the runners, and in the cylinders during cold cranking....I've seen guys lock engines by pumping the accel pedal numerous times trying to start a cold carbureted methanol engine. Using it for fuel, I've learned that starting the car in cool air is pretty tough. We're talking 45° or below, and we typically don't race unless the temp is 45+ here. Actually since my car is injected (mechanical), I run a system that is sort of like a nitrous spray bar hooked to a fuel pump and a fuel cell-that way I can start/idle the car on gasoline to build heat in the engine as well as saves methanol. Works wonderful. Another issue with methanol is heat. On a gas-burner, you have to be mindful of removing heat from the engine as it heats up fast and will get really hot if you're not careful. With methanol it's sorta the opposite. You do everything you can to put heat INTO the engine. I run a cooling system but with a smaller radiator. You still need a cooling system as friction and heat of combustion are still at work, just slower with methanol due to the volume of fuel as well as it's latent heat of evaporation. I've run without a radiator and coolant in the past and it's a pain in the butt. It'll still overheat. Oil temp will still get really hot. With coolant in the engine and with a radiator, you can pull the heat out via electric water pump and electric fan(s) between rounds, and it comes out fast without it running. Important in later rounds where there's 5 minutes between rounds. Or sometimes just stop at the pit area, refuel, and head back to the lanes.

Some guys say adding a little bit of I think acetone to the methanol helps it evaporate but I'm not sure acetone plays well with o-rings, fuel cells, etc. The only thing I've ever mixed with methanol were water (not on purpose....) and nitromethane. Don't try the latter unless you specifically know what you're doing with it because it's extremely nasty stuff that has killed a lot of people who thought they knew what they were doing with it.
 

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Someone can correct me if I am wrong on this but I believe the difference he is describing is because of the mechanical way in which a carb puts fuel into the engine. An injector obviously injects the fuel. With a carb the fuel gets drawn into an engine through the venturi. A venturi uses a low pressure area to draw fuel out of the bowl of the carb. Because when you lower air pressure a liquid has a lower boiling point the fuel coming out of the carb vaporizes and you see some of the effects of enthalpy of vaporization. The gasoline enters a vapor state and cools the incoming air charge.


PS engines are completely out of our realm of thought and really don't even belong in reference to any of us. WJ is a master of engine building-and I'll leave it at that. What would make 1 more HP on any of our engines would be up to 100 on his stuff because his stuff is so much more refined....and unless any of y'all have really been around any of those PS 500" jobs, you probably have no clue what I'm talking about.

If you paid WJ to do R&D on any of our 1500hp turbo engines, he'd find 5,000hp. That's how good he really is.
 
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