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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Is it a true synthetic (Group IV or higher) or a hydrocracked Group III like Syntec? Looks like the latter, note that it was re-formulated (hence the new MSDS) in 2000, around the time that Castrol got a shady "ok" from the FTC to continue to call its downgraded formula for Syntec a "synthetic". Syntec was reformulated as a hydrocracked slack wax product. Amsoil is awfully guarded with its info: web "experts" (dealers most likely) have stated that it is polyol ester, di-ester, PAO, etc. Who knows. But the MSDSA indicates that is has a base of "hydrogentated decene" - now that appears to make it a hydrocracked oil, but their terminology could be vague enough to allow it to be some sort of di-ester, but it does not look to be so on the surface. Why doesn't their website disclose fully as does Mobil 1? I am sticking to the good guys in the white hats who come clean with their product.

There is a lot of BS in the web on base stocks, synthetics, etc. Here is a nice summary of base stocks from Lubrizol, who makes most of the additives in oils:
http://www.lubrizol.com/ReadyReference/LubricantBasics/basestocks.htm

This should quiet the crowd that says PAO's are better than esters.
____________________________________________
AMSOIL Material Safety Data Sheet Date Issued/Revised: March 15, 2000
Supersedes: January 1, 1997
Product Code: ASL, 100% Synthetic Motor Oil, SAE 5W-30 Page 1 of 4
Section 1: Product and Company Identification
Manufacturer: AMSOIL, Inc. Telephone:
925 Tower Avenue CHEMTREC (Spill Emergency Only): 1-800-424-9300
Superior, WI 54880 Information: 715-392-7101
AMSOIL Product Code.............................................................................. ASL
Product Label Name ...................... 100% SYNTHETIC MOTOR OIL, SAE 5W-30
Product Use ........................................................................ LUBRICATING OIL
Section 2: Composition/Information on Ingredients
OSHA HAZARDOUS COMPONENTS (29 CFR 1910.1200)
1-Decene, Homopolymer, Hydrogenated Base, CAS# Mixture, 85-95%
*See Section 8 for exposure limits.
Section 3: Hazards Identification
POTENTIAL HEALTH EFFECTS: Minor eye, inhalation and skin irritant.
*See Section 11 for toxicological information.
Section 4: First Aid Measures
EYE: Flush with water for 15-20 minutes. Seek medical attention if irritation develops.
SKIN: Wash immediately with soap and water. Remove contaminated clothing and launder before
reuse. Discard shoes and leather articles saturated with the product. Obtain medical advice if
irritation occurs.
INHALATION: Remove exposed person to fresh air. If breathing is labored give oxygen. If breathing
has stopped apply artificial respiration. Get immediate medical attention.
INGESTION: DO NOT INDUCE VOMITING. If conscious, give 2 glasses of water. If vomiting does
occur, keep head below hips to reduce risk of aspiration. Get immediate medical
attention.
Section 5: Fire Fighting Measures
FLAMMABILITY PROPERTIES: Flash Point ........................................ 478°F(248°C)
Method ....................................... COC ASTM D-92
LFL/UFL.........................................Not Determined
Auto-ignition Temperature ...............Not Determined
EXTINGUISHING MEDIA: Carbon dioxide, dry chemical, and alcohol foam.
FIREFIGHTING EQUIPMENT: Full bunker gear recommended including a positive pressure self-contained
breathing apparatus.
Red
Flammability
1
Blue
Health
1
Yellow
Reactivity
0 White
Special
N/A
NFPA & HMIS Rating
 

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Very interesting. I usually use Mobil 1 - but I just made the switch to Amsoil and an Amsoil filter since it was to filter to I don't remember to how many microns..bla..bla..bla.
Looks like I should switch back!

Thanks for the posting this kinda info!
 

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Not to flame you, because you are obviously very intelligent, but why is it that everytime I see you post, it's about something negative with Amsoil??

Do you have some type of vendetta against them?

Your posts are very informative and all, but this is getting old.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
san-man: Excellent question. It really comes down to my passion for accuracy in web forums. plus, Amsoil dealers are very vociferous, and someone needs to try and add a little balance to the whole synthetic lissue. On the Acura-TL forum, I had an Amsoil dealer threaten to sue me, until I offered to have my attorney speak to his, and we would go into binding arbitration where I pitted my expertise (and oil analyses) against his, with loser to cough up $5000. Well, that of course never happened.

I have never said Amsoil was a worthless product or not better than straight mineral oil - it is. But they still claim extended mileage drain intervals for a product that may not support that anymore. My comparisons and analyses are based on my knowledge of lubricant issues, and the stated formulations of mfrs, their MSDS's, and what they claim on their sites.

I also rag at Castrol, as they have undoubtedly cheapened their product in the US by going to Group III base stocks - it is my understanding from a tribologist i met at an SAE conference that in Europe, regulations preclude them from calling a G3 a syntehtic, and that the Euro formula Castrol Syntec is ester-based, and much better. So they are on the crapology list as well.
 

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I applaud the good tech

Thanks for presenting the facts.

On many race bikes (roadracing, over the years) I noticed the consistent cooler operating temperatures running Mobil One versus many other blended, mineral or synthetic oils, always running the same viscosity index. I have no scientific data to back this up, and cooler operating temps are not the only concern, but when I record everything from OAT, pressure altitude, jetting, type of fuel, type of oil, what track it is, tire compound gearing, and what temps the digital water temperature indicates, it's valid enough to make the conclusion, for myself, that it runs average 10 degrees C cooler than most other oils.

One exception is the Castrol R4 Superbike, as this I used only in 5W-40, so not a fair comparison, but I really liked this full synthetic (according to Castrol, but I think it's the same as the one in Europe)), and I always did like the GTX 20W-50, it's always been a good oil for me.

Not a lot of facts.... can you tell me about the R4 though?

Thanks,

Dave
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Can't find anything on R4 - based on its price and the European connection, I would guess it has ester-base. so it is probably great. If you request an MSDS, post it and I will analyze.

However, I have always used Red Line in wet clutch superbikes, and nearly every track racer 9independent) I know uses it. At those temps and rpms, I want a POE (polyol ester).
 

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Cobra'03 -- where did u get the MSDS? Is the manufacturer or distributor required to post or provide it (mail) free of charge or is there a gov. site with the info. I was interested in looking at some of the octane boosters.

Thanks!
 

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OK....

Cobra......Very simple ? well 2 simple ?'s Whats the best oil then for a Mustang 4.6 that daily driven and driven hard. And raced? Then what about an average car that see's a lot of short trips and traffic. I don't mean type but brands and weight. Thanks....Adam
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Q1:
IMHO, a raced car needs the best protection against shearing, high temp oxidation, etc. I believe that requires a polyol ester lube, so I recommend either Red Line or Motul 300V.

Q2:
Pennzoil has shown consistency year to year, formulation to formulation. I have seen a number of oil analyses, incl some Consumers Union ran years ago, and it found many well known brands did not meet their vis ratings. Pennzoil did, so I stay with them.

For my car, I plan to run Pennzoil 5w30 with 1 quart of Red Line or Mobil 1.

BTW, here is a tip - store you lubes upside down - that ensures that the particle (colloids) in the additive package get into your engine, rather than sit on the bottom of the can. That is one reason I avoid garages and fast lube places - they buy 55 gal drums, and you do not know how long they have been sitting, and the suspended particles do tend to fall to the bottom over time. With DIY and my tip, you get what you paid for.
 

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"1-Decene, Homopolymer, Hydrogenated Base"

Well the 1-Decene is a 10 Carbon atom chain with the double bond being between the first and second C atoms. Don't know what the Homopolymer :) and hydrogenated part mean. I'm guessing that they hydrogenate the 1-decene molecule which makes it something. Have to try and look it up. Of course I have no access now to my old Organic chem books or notes.

Any Chem E's in here?

Edit:

Well after looking at the link you got:

"Polyalphaolefins are the most widely used synthetic lubricants in the U.S. and Europe. They are made by combining two or more decene molecules into an oligomer, or short-chain-length polymer.

PAOs are all-hydrocarbon structures, and they contain no sulfur, phosphorus or metals. Because they are wax-free, they have low pour points, usually below -40°C. Viscosity grades range from 2 to 100 cSt, and viscosity indexes for all but the lowest grades exceed 140. :


Looks like its a PAO. I think I now remember reading somewhere that they use H2 to make PAO.
 

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AV99GT said:
"1-Decene, Homopolymer, Hydrogenated Base"

Well the 1-Decene is a 10 Carbon atom chain with the double bond being between the first and second C atoms. Don't know what the Homopolymer :) and hydrogenated part mean. I'm guessing that they hydrogenate the 1-decene molecule which makes it something. Have to try and look it up. Of course I have no access now to my old Organic chem books or notes.

Any Chem E's in here?

Edit:

Well after looking at the link you got:

"Polyalphaolefins are the most widely used synthetic lubricants in the U.S. and Europe. They are made by combining two or more decene molecules into an oligomer, or short-chain-length polymer.

PAOs are all-hydrocarbon structures, and they contain no sulfur, phosphorus or metals. Because they are wax-free, they have low pour points, usually below -40°C. Viscosity grades range from 2 to 100 cSt, and viscosity indexes for all but the lowest grades exceed 140. :


Looks like its a PAO. I think I now remember reading somewhere that they use H2 to make PAO.
A 1-decene homopolymer is a polymer (really in this case an oligomer to really be precise) that has only the 1-decene repeating groups. Totally synthetic, if that's all that's in the basestock. It would be hydrogenated to stop the polymerization and to deactivate any reactive end groups that might remain after the synthesis process. PAO for sure (polyalphaolefin--the alphaolefin being 1-decene).

But wait! Now after reviewing your post, I see it says "hydrogenated base", which would imply that the base stock itself, that is the majority of the volume, is hydrogenated, which would suggest a hydrocracked wax. So maybe the 1-decene homopolymer is merely an additive?

Anyway, people shouldn't get so wound up about hydrocracked basestocks. Even though they're not strictly "synthetic", since they are derived from natural dino oil products, they are pretty darned good basestocks, and not inexpensive to produce. They will have better consistency than conventional dino oils produced from vacuum distillation, since they are converted from the waxes left over from the refining process. Most of the undesirable trash will have already been extracted from the waxes before they are hydrocracked, and the hydrocracking process will destroy more of the undesirables. The only problem is that the carbon chain lengths won't be as consistent as they are in synthetics-proper, so the pour points and the viscosity characteristics won't be as good.
 
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