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Hey guys. I am currently putting together ideas for my engine turbo system that is going in my 68 coup. its a twin turbo setup that will be basically all custom piping. In the past i have only used air to air inter cooling, but as this is a new build i was interested in trying to set up something air to water (if there is something to be gained by doing so).

i am wondering if anyone here has any knowledge or experience with this and can chime in. some of the things i am wondering are

-Is there any substantial gains to be had by doing this
-How much space does something like this require?
-Parts involved
-anyone have pics of their setups?

thanks for the help, any info is welcome..
 

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There are three reasons to go air-to-water.

1.) The plumbing is easier because the IC does not have to be in a cool airstream

2.) The A2W has considerable thermal inertia. The water in the system can soak up far more heat than almost any other material. This means you can use a small radiator and have plenty of heat dissipating capacity for sudden bursts of boost. For example I don't have to run ice in my ice tank. I can just circulate room temperature water without ice and my IAT won't go past 160F in a pass.

3.) The system can use ice to get IAT's down below room temperature for several seconds.

I initially started using a VW radiator with a Frozen Boost type 26 IC. This worked fine, but I never race on the street. I decided to clean up my front area by removing the VW radiator used as a heat exchanger in the A-W-A system. I installed a 2.5 gallon plastic insulated tank to hold water (with ice if I need it).

The largest issue is pumping water fast enough to keep the IC stable in a pass. I'd need 20-30 GPM and that isn't happening, so I tolerate a rise from 50F to 100F+ over a pass. Even if it gets to 130F IAT it is still OK for me.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
There are three reasons to go air-to-water.

1.) The plumbing is easier because the IC does not have to be in a cool airstream

2.) The A2W has considerable thermal inertia. The water in the system can soak up far more heat than almost any other material. This means you can use a small radiator and have plenty of heat dissipating capacity for sudden bursts of boost. For example I don't have to run ice in my ice tank. I can just circulate room temperature water without ice and my IAT won't go past 160F in a pass.

3.) The system can use ice to get IAT's down below room temperature for several seconds.

I initially started using a VW radiator with a Frozen Boost type 26 IC. This worked fine, but I never race on the street. I decided to clean up my front area by removing the VW radiator used as a heat exchanger in the A-W-A system. I installed a 2.5 gallon plastic insulated tank to hold water (with ice if I need it).

The largest issue is pumping water fast enough to keep the IC stable in a pass. I'd need 20-30 GPM and that isn't happening, so I tolerate a rise from 50F to 100F+ over a pass. Even if it gets to 130F IAT it is still OK for me.
thanks for the info! So you are saying the the radiator for the A2W doesnt need to be out front of the car necessarily? about how large of an actual radiator is necessary (its a twin so do i need 2 separate?)

what are you using to pump water? i have to run water cooling to my turbos as well as they are oil less.


are there any downsides to going A2W that i may not be thinking of?
 

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20-30GPM? Wow, I wouldn't have guessed it to be so high. I have a chemical transfer pump I had planned on using someday, but I think it's rated at 12gpm.
 

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I use a Rule 2000 pump that is rated at 33 GPM.

It flows more than that now as I run it with 16 volts
 

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Hey guys. I am currently putting together ideas for my engine turbo system that is going in my 68 coup. its a twin turbo setup that will be basically all custom piping. In the past i have only used air to air inter cooling, but as this is a new build i was interested in trying to set up something air to water (if there is something to be gained by doing so).

i am wondering if anyone here has any knowledge or experience with this and can chime in. some of the things i am wondering are

-Is there any substantial gains to be had by doing this
-How much space does something like this require?
-Parts involved
-anyone have pics of their setups?

thanks for the help, any info is welcome..
is this a...
100% street car
street/track (%/% please)
100% track car
 

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There are three reasons to go air-to-water.

1.) The plumbing is easier because the IC does not have to be in a cool airstream

2.) The A2W has considerable thermal inertia. The water in the system can soak up far more heat than almost any other material. This means you can use a small radiator and have plenty of heat dissipating capacity for sudden bursts of boost. For example I don't have to run ice in my ice tank. I can just circulate room temperature water without ice and my IAT won't go past 160F in a pass.

3.) The system can use ice to get IAT's down below room temperature for several seconds.

I initially started using a VW radiator with a Frozen Boost type 26 IC. This worked fine, but I never race on the street. I decided to clean up my front area by removing the VW radiator used as a heat exchanger in the A-W-A system. I installed a 2.5 gallon plastic insulated tank to hold water (with ice if I need it).

The largest issue is pumping water fast enough to keep the IC stable in a pass. I'd need 20-30 GPM and that isn't happening, so I tolerate a rise from 50F to 100F+ over a pass. Even if it gets to 130F IAT it is still OK for me.

Is there a guide to determining a best heat exchanger side for a A2W IC system? The OP needs more heat rejection for his car, others will need different levels of cooling. It's interesting.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
is this a...
100% street car
street/track (%/% please)
100% track car
i would like to be able to drive the car to the tracks within my few state area, run it on the track, and drive home. it will see probably about 50/50 time? most parts of this build are around the track performance, while keeping it street legal
 

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IMO opinion of you will be driving it on the street go with an air to air. The big benefit of an air to water is being able to put ice water in it, great for the track.

A good air to air cooler with good air flow to it will run close to ambient. At 15lbs of boost my air temps will about 5 degrees above ambient temp at the end of a run.
 

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If A2A was the most efficient way to cool, all the OE's would be doing it. It's got to be cheaper and it is definitely simpler, but as far as I know they all use A2W setups. GT500, Corvette, Camaro, Mercedes, BMW, all used liquid systems. That says something to me.
 

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Water has clear advantages over an A2A system, street or not. This is true with or without ice.

Water, pound for pound, can absorb (and release) significantly more heat than almost anything. It takes a huge mass and surface area of metal to dissipate the same heat with only air as it does to remove heat through water.

I used a A2W with a VW radiator out front because of pipe routing and room, but a side benefit was the airflow would cool the IC water system to near outside air temp when I was not using boost. The huge thermal mass of the water would then allow me to use boost for short periods without need a great big giant heat exchanger. The water acted like a heat sink and provided thermal storage. The little radiator could trickle the heat out when I wasn't using boost.

I can actually go to the track with my ice tank and make a full pass without overheating the water even without a radiator. The only issue is I start at tank temperature, and my tank is insulated, so it takes hours to cool back down to ambient.

The main drawback of a water system is water plumbing, the need for two exchangers or the normal IC and an ice tank, and the pump requirements.

I'm making around 1400 HP using a pretty small IC with minimal pressure drop.
 

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Some Ford EcoBoost vehicles use air to air, some use air to water. It depends on the packaging requirements. The F-150 Ecoboost vehicles with either the 2.7 or 3.5 use air to air, but there is a ton of room for the plumbing of the air to air. Some of the Focus/Fusion/Escape can be either way. The tighter the engine compartment, the more likely that it is air to water. In Max HP applications, Ford always goes for air to water. The I/C core for my racecar measures only 4"wide by 11" long and only 5" deep and yet is able to support over 1,250 HP. Obviously I have maximized, for the most part, all of the other supporting hardware to make it work.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Water has clear advantages over an A2A system, street or not. This is true with or without ice.

Water, pound for pound, can absorb (and release) significantly more heat than almost anything. It takes a huge mass and surface area of metal to dissipate the same heat with only air as it does to remove heat through water.

I used a A2W with a VW radiator out front because of pipe routing and room, but a side benefit was the airflow would cool the IC water system to near outside air temp when I was not using boost. The huge thermal mass of the water would then allow me to use boost for short periods without need a great big giant heat exchanger. The water acted like a heat sink and provided thermal storage. The little radiator could trickle the heat out when I wasn't using boost.

I can actually go to the track with my ice tank and make a full pass without overheating the water even without a radiator. The only issue is I start at tank temperature, and my tank is insulated, so it takes hours to cool back down to ambient.

The main drawback of a water system is water plumbing, the need for two exchangers or the normal IC and an ice tank, and the pump requirements.

I'm making around 1400 HP using a pretty small IC with minimal pressure drop.
I like the benefit that water produces, but which is going to have a larger overall footprint in the engine bay? I may try and low mount my turbos to gain room but that isn't locked in at this point. i am not overly worried about the cost difference if it is the right choice for the build.
it sounds like an A2W setup can act more efficiently and with smaller radiators (if i am reading this right) the down side being the need for a pump.

for the purposes of simplicity, lets take ice out of the conversation. water is still an extremely effective way to reject heat from what i understand. i would still be interested in seeing someones a2w system in pictures or maybe just drawn out.
 

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water is still an extremely effective way to reject heat from what i understand.
You would understand correctly. This is why it is used exclusively to cool engines.....:wink2:
 

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Some Ford EcoBoost vehicles use air to air, some use air to water. It depends on the packaging requirements. The F-150 Ecoboost vehicles with either the 2.7 or 3.5 use air to air, but there is a ton of room for the plumbing of the air to air. Some of the Focus/Fusion/Escape can be either way. The tighter the engine compartment, the more likely that it is air to water. In Max HP applications, Ford always goes for air to water. The I/C core for my racecar measures only 4"wide by 11" long and only 5" deep and yet is able to support over 1,250 HP. Obviously I have maximized, for the most part, all of the other supporting hardware to make it work.

I like that 220ci intercooler size. I hope I can fit something over 150ci for my project.


What I read here that I didn't realize before, is that the heat exchanger can be smaller and less in the way of the radiator than I thought. It can be still be effective behind a smaller opening of the bumper and lower valance. I have a very tall radiator in my SUV, and was considering locating the heat exchanger partially above the bumper. I will aim for an exchanger size that is wider and fits below the grille opening.


I also like reading that a heat exchanger can be a common radiator design, and not a high dollar version from a top brand heat exchanger maker. Thanks for the ideas.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Water to Air Intercooler

so just as a starting point towards what i am looking to put together, how does something like this rate? is it possible to swap out the larger rad for 2 smaller ones i can remotely mount? is that fan a need? the shape of the cold side exchange seems to me commonly the "u" shape. is there something better for twins with smaller pipes?
 

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goose, here's a pic of my set up. Not running yet but getting close. Ide like to hear what TomR has to say about it as I know he has looked into these setups in very fine details.. I plan on running two pumps feeding into one heat exchanger. Two feeds at the top and outlets at the bottom. Ok stupid app won't let me upload....will try again .
 

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Discussion Starter #20
goose, here's a pic of my set up. Not running yet but getting close. Ide like to hear what TomR has to say about it as I know he has looked into these setups in very fine details.. I plan on running two pumps feeding into one heat exchanger. Two feeds at the top and outlets at the bottom. Ok stupid app won't let me upload....will try again .
hope you can get it sorted, interested to see
 
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