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post #1 of 99 Old 01-11-2008, 04:30 PM Thread Starter
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TURBO VS BLOWER

I'm tossing around the idea of going turbo.

A few Q's

has anybody here gone from a mild S/C combo to a single turbo?

what was the differences on the street?
what did you have for tires?
stick or auto?
dyno #'s? before/after
regrets?
blower used? (vortech a,b,s,sc,sq,t,r,ysi-paxton-procharger,kb,ect)

please none of the "it's way better" lines.. I know that, that's why i started the thread

i did the "search" thing. nothing even close to what i'm looking for.


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post #2 of 99 Old 01-11-2008, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OWENMUSTANG View Post
I'm tossing around the idea of going turbo.

A few Q's

has anybody here gone from a mild S/C combo to a single turbo?

what was the differences on the street?
what did you have for tires?
stick or auto?
dyno #'s? before/after
regrets?
blower used? (vortech a,b,s,sc,sq,t,r,ysi-paxton-procharger,kb,ect)

please none of the "it's way better" lines.. I know that, that's why i started the thread

i did the "search" thing. nothing even close to what i'm looking for.


Go do a search on www.theturboforums.com you'll find alot of good info there.

I have never went from a blower to turbo I would never buy a blower, I have gone nitrous to turbo and will never go back.


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86 Hatch - Made two track outings and was parted out best e.t. to date was 9.X @ 14X
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post #3 of 99 Old 01-11-2008, 07:29 PM
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[email protected] with a vortech sc and 11 psi. [email protected] with 70mm turbo and 11psi.

same engine combo and trans. also same total timing. the sc combo was nearly maxed out, i've still got a few tenths left in the turbo combo with no changes.

driveability is the same, power is very different.

love my turbo, but don't rule out superchargers they can go just as fast with right one.

1982 Ford Fairmont Futura H/C/I, fuel injected and turbocharged [email protected]
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post #4 of 99 Old 01-11-2008, 10:33 PM
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Go with a turbo, its WAY better!...hope that helps

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post #5 of 99 Old 01-12-2008, 08:01 AM
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I am in the middle of a change right now. Going from a Vortech S-trim at 15lbs of boost with water/meth injection to a T70 single turbo. I made 525RWHP and 512 RWTQ with the supercharger combo. Planning on making around the same numbers with the turbo.

I enjoyed the Vortech but being a centrifigal you don't see full boost until about redline. I want that power throughout the RPM range.

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post #6 of 99 Old 01-12-2008, 08:39 AM Thread Starter
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mbricher, your #'s would be close to mine at 15lbs (i'm at 12psi)

one of the "issues" that has crossed my mind is traction.
i don't claim to be a drag racer, so my car is'nt set up like one..
so, traction with the vortech is minimal at best.. kinda of worried the mid range hit will make this thing even more of a stab & steer than it is now.

so far, lots of positives, a few negitives..

i suppose another plus is the fact they are rare compared to S/C's... hell, there's so many of those around now, you would think they were standard equipment!

anybody else?

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post #7 of 99 Old 01-12-2008, 08:41 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob View Post
[email protected] with a vortech sc and 11 psi. [email protected] with 70mm turbo and 11psi.

same engine combo and trans. also same total timing. the sc combo was nearly maxed out, i've still got a few tenths left in the turbo combo with no changes.

driveability is the same, power is very different.

love my turbo, but don't rule out superchargers they can go just as fast with right one.
seen your video, cool ride

what kind of trans do you have?

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post #8 of 99 Old 01-12-2008, 08:43 AM Thread Starter
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even though most turbo kits use intercoolers, what kind of gain would meth have?

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post #9 of 99 Old 01-12-2008, 02:44 PM
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I started with a Kenne Bell 2.2 Flowzilla, then switched to a Vortech SQ. Around the same time I switched to the Vortech, I built a 306 with TW heads, stage 1 cam, Track Heat intake. Had a Tremec with both. Broke the input shaft, switched to a C4 setup. Only dynoed with the Vortech and C4 with a 4400 stall. Dyno read 475 at 12#s boost (which really isn't accurate at all with such a loose stall). Ran a 10.80 with a 1.57 60ft. at 126 mph weighing 3600#s. Just switched to a turbo, cause I was at the point where I really needed to step up to a YSi. I got a nearly new turbo kit for less than the YSi headunit. The kit came with a 76mm turbo, which I have discovered is just a little too laggy for my taste. I will probably keep the 76, but I just bought a 67 last night. No times or dyno numbers with the turbo yet, as I just got everything together.
Comparison breakdown:
K.B: loads of torque really fun on the street, easy to spin Drag radials at will, makes alot of heat, clean install. If I were just wanting a nice torqey street car, this is the way I would go. Resale value holds very well, boost is easily changed with pulley swaps. No real belt slip to speak of, if you do a few mods that are documented here. Power seemed to level off in the higher rpms. Never had a minutes trouble with the kit. 17* timing (93 pump gas no meth kit)

Vortech setup: I loved it. Power is very linear, making application a lil' easier. Pulley swaps are easy. Seemed like I did alot of upgrades to get to where I wanted it though. Had to send it back a few times, to get new bearings. Sounded good, everyone knows what it is. Made real good power, and just keeps on pulling the more you spin it. Meth kit worked good with the Vortech. (22* timimng, with meth kit on 93 pump gas)

Turbo: So far I'm liking it. No belts to fuss with. Nothing pulling on the crank. When the boost comes on, it's like a freight train, it just keeps pulling and pulling. Intercooler makes the charge nice and cool. Initially routing things as to not melt is kinda a pain. Making sure you get the right size unit is the key to happiness. Blow thru setup with a nice BOV sounds cool. I love hearing the thing spool up. Seems to make mad power at the same boost level as the blower setups. Nothing to really complain about as of yet. One plus though, you can get a new unit or parts or service of turbos for alot cheaper than either 1 of the blowers, which I think is a huge plus. Like I said I got a complete kit for less than the price of a YSi head unit only. My car is more drag race oriented, so hooking on the street really is out of the question anyway. I really didn't hook with either combo at all on the street, even with MT drag radials, which work awesome on the track. This was with both the 5 speed and the C4. I did switch from 3:73s that I had with the blowers to a set of 3:27s, and the street hook is still not there. I do plan to run my meth kit with the turbo, once I get everything sorted out. (22* timing, 93 pump gas, no meth kit yet)

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Last edited by STANGFREEK94; 01-12-2008 at 02:53 PM.
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post #10 of 99 Old 01-12-2008, 06:02 PM
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An electronic boost controler will help with any traction issues. Some allow different boost levels in each gear. You can launch at low boost and ramp up boost. Lots of options.


'67 coupe, blow-thru 351w S475, C4/C5, 8.8 6.38 at 110, 9.99 at 135
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post #11 of 99 Old 01-14-2008, 12:08 PM Thread Starter
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STANGFREEK, Great info!

funny, i thought you were still running the KB..

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post #12 of 99 Old 01-14-2008, 12:09 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by brianj5600 View Post
An electronic boost controler will help with any traction issues. Some allow different boost levels in each gear. You can launch at low boost and ramp up boost. Lots of options.
any links to one of these?

very interesting..

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post #13 of 99 Old 01-14-2008, 12:26 PM
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Who builds good turbo kits that require little fab work? The only downfall I have read on this subject is all the work you have to do to get the turbo kit in the car. I also read somewhere that it is a pain in the ass when it comes time to do maintence on your stang cuz of all the limited space with the turbo kit.

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post #14 of 99 Old 01-14-2008, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by PearlWhiteGT View Post
Who builds good turbo kits that require little fab work? The only downfall I have read on this subject is all the work you have to do to get the turbo kit in the car. I also read somewhere that it is a pain in the ass when it comes time to do maintence on your stang cuz of all the limited space with the turbo kit.
I bought a Quicktime Turbo Systems kit, there's a thread on them.

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post #15 of 99 Old 01-14-2008, 02:06 PM
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hey ratedz, does it require alot of cutting & fabbing?

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306, typhoon intake, E303, stock heads, 1.6 FMS R.R., 70 T.B., 80mm pmas, 42lb injectors, 255 in-tank fuel pump, adj. billet regulator, MSD dist., coil & 6A box, BBK shorties, o/r x-pipe, spintech mufflers dumped, T-5, 3.55's, e-fan, b&m pro ripper, S-Trim, 396.37hp/398.06trq.
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post #16 of 99 Old 01-14-2008, 02:08 PM Thread Starter
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Who builds good turbo kits that require little fab work? The only downfall I have read on this subject is all the work you have to do to get the turbo kit in the car. I also read somewhere that it is a pain in the ass when it comes time to do maintence on your stang cuz of all the limited space with the turbo kit.
Ever looked a S/C car?

at least with the turbo most of the parts are under the car not above the engine like all S/C's

from the pics i've seen, the quicktime kit seems to have fixed the rh side access problems with the v-clamp outlet pipe..

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post #17 of 99 Old 01-14-2008, 02:33 PM
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Nope, I have never really looked at a S/C car. This is from what I have read. There was alot of info on this on a different forum, i'll see if I can find it & post it.

1990 Mustang GT
306, typhoon intake, E303, stock heads, 1.6 FMS R.R., 70 T.B., 80mm pmas, 42lb injectors, 255 in-tank fuel pump, adj. billet regulator, MSD dist., coil & 6A box, BBK shorties, o/r x-pipe, spintech mufflers dumped, T-5, 3.55's, e-fan, b&m pro ripper, S-Trim, 396.37hp/398.06trq.
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post #18 of 99 Old 01-14-2008, 03:00 PM Thread Starter
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Vortechs, Paxtons, powerdynes, ect all are a nigthmare on the rh side.
you have to take the blower belt off to do any involving the front dress..
plug access is a major pain on the rh side too.

if you have not been apart of a non stock blower install. i can tell you from experience, fan,rad,shroud issues are serious issues to resolve. (read $$$)

A well designed turbo kit will have twice the plumbing but, alot of it is behind the bumper cover/fender well area.

I'm not saying a turbo is better, just saying both consume valueable space under the hood.....

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post #19 of 99 Old 01-14-2008, 03:14 PM
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Thanks for the info!

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306, typhoon intake, E303, stock heads, 1.6 FMS R.R., 70 T.B., 80mm pmas, 42lb injectors, 255 in-tank fuel pump, adj. billet regulator, MSD dist., coil & 6A box, BBK shorties, o/r x-pipe, spintech mufflers dumped, T-5, 3.55's, e-fan, b&m pro ripper, S-Trim, 396.37hp/398.06trq.
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post #20 of 99 Old 01-14-2008, 03:17 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbricher View Post
I am in the middle of a change right now. Going from a Vortech S-trim at 15lbs of boost with water/meth injection to a T70 single turbo. I made 525RWHP and 512 RWTQ with the supercharger combo. Planning on making around the same numbers with the turbo.

I enjoyed the Vortech but being a centrifigal you don't see full boost until about redline. I want that power throughout the RPM range.
Then go with positive displacement blower...kb or Whipple. They make instant boost that lasts till redline.

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post #21 of 99 Old 01-14-2008, 05:40 PM
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hey ratedz, does it require alot of cutting & fabbing?
None thus far, i've test fitted the entire hotside. Only issues I can forsee are the locations of my MSD 6AL box and my radiator overflow (Aftermarket)


I've already moved the 6AL so that was about 15 minutes. The catch can will be moved in less than 3 minutes.


No issues with fitment.

If you're serious, call him. You won't be disappointed.

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*Sold drivetrain - Rolling Chassis may be available*
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post #22 of 99 Old 01-14-2008, 07:36 PM
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Then go with positive displacement blower...kb or Whipple. They make instant boost that lasts till redline.

This is very true..but... it has a lot more of an advantage on the modular motors where you have the very efficient intercooler right below the blower.
On the 302/351 cars it's not quite as good a setup non intercooled.

OWENMUSTANG,I never thought plug access was much of a problem at all on my old Vortech setup. Now on my B+G single turbo setup...HA...pass side is all but impossible without taking a lot loose. Don't get me wrong I wouldn't trade the torque of the turbo setup back to have better plug access.

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post #23 of 99 Old 01-14-2008, 07:47 PM
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Back to the original question.
I went from the basic h/c/i Vortech setup to the exact same but with the B+G single turbo setup.
I love the part throttle torque of the turbo and the whooshing of the bov.
Much much quieter exhaust with it going from long tubes,offroad X and Pypes catback to the turbo,3 1/2" downpipe to 3 1/2" to 2 1/2" Y pipe to Pypes catback.
I went from 3.73's with the blower to 3.27's with the turbo.
Just makes so much torque low gears arent really needed.
Just have Nitto 275/40/17 dr's for the street. Useless with either power adder on the street.
Went from 521 rwhp to 584 rwhp and picked up 60ft-lbs of torque peak but that doesnt tell the whole story. Area under the curve was much improved. I did up the boost about 3 lbs but was able to do so since it's now intercooled. Turbo has a LOT left in it (Precision T-70 P trim) where as the old SC trim Vortech would have been spinning max rpms to get the same boost.
Regrets? None really other than the pain of installing it. Have to move a lot of wires. Make sure everything is out of the way or heat protected. Make sure you have plenty of electric fan to pull air through the rad,condenser and intercooler. Was a little more to getting it tuned correctly but we got it all done in one dyno session.
That all being said I wouldn't have done it if I wouldn't have ran across a good deal on a turbo kit.

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post #24 of 99 Old 01-15-2008, 12:04 AM
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bill.. the meth still rocks on a turbo combo.. i actually use it quite often on turbo cars.... MOST centri 5 speed cars outrun (et wise) turbo cars of similar boost at the track...

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post #25 of 99 Old 01-15-2008, 10:32 AM
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bill.. the meth still rocks on a turbo combo.. i actually use it quite often on turbo cars.... MOST centri 5 speed cars outrun (et wise) turbo cars of similar boost at the track...
While meth injection works quite well…it's simply not needed on a stock 5.0 block IMHO. It's quite easy to max the hp limits with moderate boost and timing levels. That's another reason I've never understood peoples obsession with street and track tunes when quite often only one is really needed regardless of track or street (again, on a stock 5.0 block).

As far as track times go….I have notice quite the opposite. Most turbo'd cars outrun centri cars boost for boost (in both ET and Trap speed).

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post #26 of 99 Old 01-15-2008, 10:51 AM
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While meth injection works quite well…it's simply not needed on a stock 5.0 block IMHO. It's quite easy to max the hp limits with moderate boost and timing levels. That's another reason I've never understood peoples obsession with street and track tunes when quite often only one is really needed regardless of track or street (again, on a stock 5.0 block).

As far as track times go….I have notice quite the opposite. Most turbo'd cars outrun centri cars boost for boost (in both ET and Trap speed).
i have to strongly disagree with you here.. A stock block is probably the MOST IMPORTANT TIME to use meth. It builds the safety cushion to held keep detonation away by the increase in octane and cooling effect. I have alot of customers who run 87 or 89 octane with performance setups now with meth injection. No more need to worry if you got a bad tank of gas with meth.

The stock block is VERY fragile and will crack in the blink of an eye with the slightest detonation.. thats where the piece of mind of meth comes into play!

as far as your comment about turbos outrunning centris... this is true with autos.. i specifically stated manuals and equal amounts of boost.

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post #27 of 99 Old 01-15-2008, 11:18 AM
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i have to strongly disagree with you here.. A stock block is probably the MOST IMPORTANT TIME to use meth. It builds the safety cushion to held keep detonation away by the increase in octane and cooling effect. I have alot of customers who run 87 or 89 octane with performance setups now with meth injection. No more need to worry if you got a bad tank of gas with meth.

The stock block is VERY fragile and will crack in the blink of an eye with the slightest detonation.. thats where the piece of mind of meth comes into play!

as far as your comment about turbos outrunning centris... this is true with autos.. i specifically stated manuals and equal amounts of boost.
If you have a proper setup…you should already have a safety cushion without the need for meth. When you are more than maxing out the stock blocks limits at 8lbs of intercooled boost….with safe timing there is simply no need for meth.

Now if your talking about someone running a stock longblock pushing 14lbs of boost who want's the absolute max out of the iron heads…then yes, the meth does allow you to push more h/p and run more timing. It's just not needed though for a great deal of us…and will not do squat for those already maxing the block out with a safe tune.

Honestly, I think it's asinine to run meth injection in order to get away with running lower octane fuel. If you cant afford premium in the first place, you shouldn't have a forced induction mustang.

I still have to disagree with you on the times…regardless of 5-speed or auto. The only time I see superchargers running comparable ET's to turbo setups (same mods/boost levels) is if they are running regular street tires. All those running a decent set of drag radials still favor the turbo setups.
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post #28 of 99 Old 01-15-2008, 11:22 AM
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If you have a proper setup…you should already have a safety cushion without the need for meth. When you are more than maxing out the stock blocks limits at 8lbs of intercooled boost….with safe timing there is simply no need for meth.

Now if your talking about someone running a stock longblock pushing 14lbs of boost who want's the absolute max out of the iron heads…then yes, the meth does allow you to push more h/p and run more timing. It's just not needed though for a great deal of us…and will not do squat for those already maxing the block out with a safe tune.

Honestly, I think it's asinine to run meth injection in order to get away with running lower octane fuel. If you cant afford premium in the first place, you shouldn't have a forced induction mustang.

I still have to disagree with you on the times…regardless of 5-speed or auto. The only time I see superchargers running comparable ET's to turbo setups (same mods/boost levels) is if they are running regular street tires. All those running a decent set of drag radials still favor the turbo setups.
ever hear of winter blend fuel?? Whats to stop your great tune from detonating when you get a tankfull of crappy fuel?? It happens all the time... Meth helps that issue..

I stated all the above because i did a mail order tune for Bill... I am not trying to sell anything.. just telling him the facts of my tuning experience..

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The stocker block is not going to be an issue for me.. i made a run to the border! (mexican block)

Bob, the ET thing i can understand.
the turbo will have a better midrange hit..traction could become an issue.

millhouse, i have drag radials..
I have a serious traction problem...still...

93 notch, 5 speed black on black
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ever hear of winter blend fuel?? Whats to stop your great tune from detonating when you get a tankfull of crappy fuel?? It happens all the time... Meth helps that issue..

I stated all the above because i did a mail order tune for Bill... I am not trying to sell anything.. just telling him the facts of my tuning experience..
93 octane is 93 octane regardless of winter or summer. The additives may change….but the octane remains the same.

I have NEVER (not once) had a single tank full of crappy fuel….at least not one that made me detonate. You should not need to run meth as a safeguard against a bad batch of fuel…it's a band aid fix. If you are seriously that concerned about getting a bad batch of fuel….the proper thing to do is to install a knock sensor and have it tuned to pull timing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OWENMUSTANG View Post
The stocker block is not going to be an issue for me.. i made a run to the border! (mexican block)

Bob, the ET thing i can understand.
the turbo will have a better midrange hit..traction could become an issue.

millhouse, i have drag radials..
I have a serious traction problem...still...
What kind? I'd be seriously surprised if you had serious traction problems if you were running ET street radials…as a vast majority of the guys I know claim that they are bar none the best hooking drag radial (even at high h/p levels).
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we'll agree to disagree... all my years of tuning and racing have nothing on ya... have a good day

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post #32 of 99 Old 01-16-2008, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by OWENMUSTANG View Post
The stocker block is not going to be an issue for me.. i made a run to the border! (mexican block)

Bob, the ET thing i can understand.
the turbo will have a better midrange hit..traction could become an issue.

millhouse, i have drag radials..
I have a serious traction problem...still...
You will have a traction problem on the street unless you are able to do a big, smokey burnout with some VHT... I have a traction problem @ 70mph if I just roll into the throttle, and that's with ET Streets on the car.

When my car had a Vortech S-trim (making 587rwhp and running low-10s) the car would hook much better when just rolling into the throttle. I believe that this is because the boost would build progressively with the growing RPMs.

With the turbo, the boost comes on, and it comes on HARD, at much lower RPMs than a centrifugal blower. This is what causes the traction problems, but this is also why a turbo car, with good traction, will outrun a centrifugal car at equal hp levels. Turbos make their power earlier in the rpm range which translates to a better power curve.

That's my experience. Here's my car - https://www.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?t=925968

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post #33 of 99 Old 01-16-2008, 04:45 PM
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93 octane is 93 octane regardless of winter or summer. The additives may change….but the octane remains the same.
(even at high h/p levels).
This is not even close to being true. The gas now SUCKS!!!! Talk to a few engine builers and they will show you all of the broken parts the bad gas is causing now.
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post #34 of 99 Old 01-16-2008, 07:22 PM
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This is not even close to being true. The gas now SUCKS!!!! Talk to a few engine builers and they will show you all of the broken parts the bad gas is causing now.
What's not true about it? Are you telling me winter blend 93 octane is not 93 octane?

Serously, the only difference between summer and winter blends is the additives which are present for various reasons. The summer blends have additives that cut down on smog an slow the fuel's evaporation rate. The winter blends have their own additives which enhance the evaporation rate to aid cold starting (they also lack many of the summer blends additives).

In the end, 93 octane remains 93 octane....and if you are getting bad gas it is not from the winter blend.
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post #35 of 99 Old 01-19-2008, 01:35 AM
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I like the superchargers. I have ran as fast as a 6.29 1/8th with a s-trim with an aftercooler and a 5.86 1/8th with a ysi with no aftercooler.Both times are with an AOD.Still haven't gotten full power out of the ysi due to fuel pump being too small.

Last edited by ysi91; 01-19-2008 at 02:33 AM.
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