orange headders - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
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post #1 of 64 Old 10-04-2007, 08:37 AM Thread Starter
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Angry orange headders

Hey guys I had my car on the dyno and everytime it went to full boost the headders and collectors turned orange? 11 times total, the guy blamed it on spark plugs, then, wg signal line, then too small wg, then said that the turbo needed more boost I was running 9lbs I think that it is a tuning issue not a boost issue.. To me it sounds like a too rich or lean condition.. He said that turbo ='s heat but my brand new blue taylor wires turned black in like 30 minutes any ideas?

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post #2 of 64 Old 10-04-2007, 10:28 AM
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What was the A/F during the runs? I'll bet the answer lies there. Sucks on those wires!!!
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post #3 of 64 Old 10-04-2007, 10:34 AM
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Sounds like it was lean as hell to me.

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post #4 of 64 Old 10-04-2007, 05:35 PM Thread Starter
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i will call and ask for the papers, after 2 days and 11 pulls we never got a clean run
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post #5 of 64 Old 10-04-2007, 10:10 PM
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too rich or lean, too much or not enough timing.

80 coupe, N/A 347, tko500 1.34, 6.30 @ 109.01, 9.87 @ 137.06

16 GT, daily driver on pump 93, Procharger 1.42, 6.31 @ 109.59, 9.80 @ 141.57
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post #6 of 64 Old 10-05-2007, 07:08 AM
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Get em and post em. Something is wrong. Was the guy burning chips the whole time?? What type of adjustments were being made??
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post #7 of 64 Old 10-05-2007, 08:35 AM Thread Starter
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The adjustments were a/f and timing in the end he has the base timing at 10 and said it was like 17 in the computer, he gave me 1 paper that is really bogus looking it almostt looks fake but this it the 1st time on the dyno so i am not sure yet
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post #8 of 64 Old 10-05-2007, 08:37 AM Thread Starter
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Angry

rpm only shows 4800 to 4900
and the air fuel shows from rising 10.99 to 11.015
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post #9 of 64 Old 10-05-2007, 10:29 AM
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Too rich and too little timing. All the reasons that tuner gave you have nothing to do with the glowing headers. 9/10 times its a combination of too much fuel and not enough timing
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post #10 of 64 Old 10-05-2007, 12:07 PM
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I'd guess your running too rich and the unburnt fuel is getting to the header. GL
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post #11 of 64 Old 10-09-2007, 09:47 AM Thread Starter
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timing was 37 deg @ 4700 i have the data logs now and I am not too happy
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post #12 of 64 Old 10-09-2007, 09:49 AM
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WHat are you using for timing?

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post #13 of 64 Old 10-10-2007, 11:07 PM
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Hey David,

When we swapped the vac line that ran from the turbo to the W/G the headers quit turning orange(the turbo installer ran a 3/16 hard plastic line from the turbo to the W/G)

Yes in 2 days I had to help install a steering rack(1 that I let you borrow to get the car to BG for the NMRA), Prime turbo system,Fire a fresh motor( which had approx 6 fuel leaks( poor workmanship on installer),Adjust valves,
Replace spark plugs had a N/A plug( installer didn't tell the supplier the motor was turbo) He assumed that there were all the same. WRONG

2nd fuel pump in car wasn't working, MSD wasn't working, New Accel coil was BAD ( gave you a stock TFI coil to get the car to run)

Installed 3in exhaust system, Adjusted pinion angle, Adjusted toe end.

Worked from 10AM - 10:30PM Monday night. Let you borrow a shop truck to go to a motel(couldn't back a trailer).

Worked from 9AM -3:30PM Tue.

End result Torque Convetor was wayyy to loose stalled to 4700RPM on the dyno. Spark was blowing out with stock TFI coil @ approx 4900 RPM's
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post #14 of 64 Old 10-10-2007, 11:16 PM
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About not being very happy. You forgot to mention the $500 plus dollars I knocked off your bill.

Learn to read the datalog before you go quoting timing. At no time is the timing @ 37 degress @ 4700 RPM


Fix all the problems with your car and swap the TC in the trans and I will show you some #'s

I have tuned many turbo fox cars as servral on this board.



P.S. If you have a problem with me Next time stand up like a man and call me or email me. Anyone can hide behind a keyboard.


If I had something to hide I surely wouldn't have given you the tune on a flash card along with the datalogs.


So good luck with your car but don't blame your hurried work and poor performance on my tuning ablity.



THANKS
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post #15 of 64 Old 10-16-2007, 05:28 PM Thread Starter
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Talking

Here goes

When we swapped the vac line that ran from the turbo to the W/G the headers quit turning orange(the turbo installer ran a 3/16 hard plastic line from the turbo to the W/G)

True on the w/g line, it was too small. But for some reason the headders
still turn orange. hum maybe that wasn't the whole fix.



Yes in 2 days I had to help install a steering rack(1 that I let you borrow to get the car to BG for the NMRA), Prime turbo system,Fire a fresh motor( which had approx 6 fuel leaks( poor workmanship on installer)

Help install a rack I remember you letting me borrow a few wrenches. Fuel leaks on the fuel rails that took so much of the
time. The professional products fuel rails and the spider intake suck and that's that. Even with the exhaust straps on the top
of the rails 2 injectors are still leaking. So still not fixed


,Adjust valves, how about telling the whole truth.. adj 1 valve and check the rest.

Replace spark plugs had a N/A plug( installer didn't tell the supplier the motor was turbo) He assumed that there were all
the same. WRONG whatever makes you feel better the were wrong but it still didn't fix the problem
2nd fuel pump in car wasn't working, so i hard wired it to the battery MSD wasn't working , New Accel coil was BAD ( gave you a stock TFI coil to get the car
to run) And that appreciated for the coil what can you do about brand new electronics not working not a whole lot.

Installed 3in exhaust system, is okay hangs a bit low for my taste

Adjusted pinion angle, sooo you adjusted the pinion angle by checking it and then saying its OK? I am not an idiot to adjust someting means to go and get some wrenches when all you did was check it?? i am a tech also and that would nevver fly at our shop.
Adjusted toe end. on the rack that you let me borrow , and that took a lot of time 2 or3 min it wasn't an alignment or any thing

Worked from 10AM - 10:30PM Monday night. Let you borrow a shop truck to go to a motel(couldn't back a trailer).

Hey it was offered so i took you up on it. What is it any ones business if the 3rd time I drive my truck I can back up a car trailer I am 24 years old and If anyone has an issue with that then they can go somewhere really crappy of you to bring that up in a turbocharges forumn but whatever makes you feel better.


Worked from 9AM -3:30PM Tue. yep me too i was there working

End result Torque Convetor was wayyy to loose stalled to 4700RPM on the dyno. Spark was blowing out with stock TFI coil @
approx 4900 RPM's

End result... I was asking questions on here never said who it was because i was asking for information NOT opinions!! I
wanted to have everything fixed and returned to you before I said you didn't know what you were doing, All of the
hospitality was appreciated and I think that you are a nice person, but you getting offended by me asking questions or
doubting you makes you look like an #######! I guess that's why your twin turbo dart based cougar went 13's all day in
bowling green ? What a great tuner you are ? Oh yea I really didn't appreciate you instant messaging your friend while my
car was on your dyno it was really crappy of you to plan your weekend while i was paying you to dyno tune my car on the
dyno,. I guess we will figure out if it was crappy head gaskets with the other car in your shop if a bad tune next time it will come in with a torched piston or 2.

Your friend and he said that you can "ship it" so you tuned it with a vaccum leak and did just that SHIPPED IT!
Thanks


About not being very happy. You forgot to mention the $500 plus dollars I knocked off your bill.

I remember you charging for hour to hour then changing it to me renting the dyno for a day so so you can talk to all of your Buddy's on instant messaging i am sure some of it was for help but mostly not! There were tons of other distractions so please don't think that you worked on the car
all day long.


Learn to read the data log before you go quoting timing. At no time is the timing @ 37 degrees @ 4700 RPM
You are correct i jumped the gun on that one the data logs, very screwy , they are so short because the car kept turning the headders orange, even on the last pull never got a clean pass even after the spark plugs and the w/g line replaced still a bit too much orange for me
Fix all the problems with your car and swap the TC in the trans and I will show you some #'s And I will prob take it some where else

I have tuned many turbo fox cars as several on this board. I know that that's one of the reasons i went to you
P.S. If you have a problem with me Next time stand up like a man and call me or email me. Anyone can hide behind a keyboard.
I didn't have a problem with you. And Still don't i just want everything 2x checked! I don't like orange headders. You are the one who wanted to vent on the Internet not me if and when i get everything fixed and i find that the tune is jacked then you better be live that you will be hearing from me. I wasn't going to bother you until i knew for a fact that there was issues other then the headders turning orange.
If I had something to hide I surely wouldn't have given you the tune on a flash card along with the data logs.

I never said you had something to hide all i said was the the 100 rpms sheets were not any help and they looked fake because
they were only for a 100 rpms why not 1000 or 2500 rpms. 100 is too short for any information


So good luck with your car but don't blame your hurried work and poor performance on my tuning ability.
Again I Never blamed you, yet I wish you better luck on your car also and we will be in touch when all of the issues are worked out new converter from percsion will be here shortly.

THANKS

Last edited by smurfmobile8586; 10-16-2007 at 05:37 PM. Reason: make stuff easier to read
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post #16 of 64 Old 10-17-2007, 08:06 AM
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haha. when i was 24 i was a jackass too.
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post #17 of 64 Old 10-17-2007, 12:08 PM
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If you reread your post
smurfmobile8586 i will call and ask for the papers, after 2 days and 11 pulls we never got a clean run

You failed to mention all the problem ( sounds like we dynoed it straight for 2 day with no clean run(s)

The person I was IM was the tech @ SCT asking if he had any ideal why the car was running so poorly and turning the header orange.

The reason for my post was to cover some of the details that were important for a good responce to the question @ hand.


As for my car running so SLOW. That is the way it goes when you spend your time working on CUSTMERS CARS and not your own.

Yes it was much slower than I wanted, but when you build a car from ground up and only have 900miles on the car you have to exspect boost controller problems and such.



You had already palnned on taking your car to DynoSpeed because you told me you had talked to them. Which is fine.
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post #18 of 64 Old 10-17-2007, 12:19 PM
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smurfmobile8586 The adjustments were a/f and timing in the end he has the base timing at 10 and said it was like 17 in the computer, he gave me 1 paper that is really bogus looking it almostt looks fake but this it the 1st time on the dyno so i am not sure yet


Your 2nd time to the dyno will hopfully be better for You.



I'll be around let me know how it turns out.

You may not have blamed me you just called me "FAKE" or altleast my dyno sheets.


The headers only get a slight orange glow @ the very top of the pull now with the W/G line and plugs changed.
Before by like 2500 the headers would be glowing because the wastegate would not vent the excess boost(thus much heat build up @ the headers)

I'm not venting just getting both side of the story heard(read).

As before good luck with your car weather it is tuned here @ DynoSpeed or whoever. The car should make good power with the right set up.

P.S. I didn't say you were to balme for the faulty ign parts
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post #19 of 64 Old 10-17-2007, 12:45 PM
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Getting the car right can be frustrating for sure. Just try and whittle the problems down one by one.
I'm leery of that prof products stuff. All made in china.
Keep updating!

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post #20 of 64 Old 10-17-2007, 08:48 PM
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hmm.. smurf you might remember me. I was in the trailer when you got the "bogus" sheets that I personally saw in his computer. The superflow dyno does alot of neat things. One thing it dosent do is make fake dyno sheets. God if only it did you might get the numbers your looking for.

As far as Greg's tuning abilities, after being on his dyno with a total of 4 cars now I'd have to point the finger at something else. 2 of those being turbo cars 1 hellion, 1 quicktime and both putting down very respectible numbers and running numbers to back it up. The hellion car had been to another tuner, who is supposidly a god in the modular tuning world but couldnt tune 5.0 to save his life. The car picked up 100hp and you could actually drive it on the street, which was something shop x had failed in all 3 attempts at accomplishing.

To go back to your original questions, i looked at the same logs you were given and coupled with your timing i would say if anything the glowing headers would be from a little extra fuel burning in manifolds. 1300-1400 degrees is enough heat that headers can glow, and turbo's like to trap the heat in the header... its not uncommon to have glowing headers.

The top video is an engine tuned and built by kenny duttweiler, if you dont know who that is, google it.

The last is a conservatively tuned lsx motor on low boost, god lets hope the headers dont melt when they turn it up.

I'll have a friend post the videos since I am a new member to this board.
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post #21 of 64 Old 10-17-2007, 08:50 PM
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post #22 of 64 Old 10-17-2007, 10:07 PM
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Fastcat is a great guy hands down! Tuned my car , anti roll bar installed , muffler put on , stayed late on a saturday just to make sure everything was ok with my car . Sorry about your car but Fastcat knows what he is doing and can tune anything . JUST MY 2 CENTS !
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post #23 of 64 Old 10-18-2007, 08:58 AM Thread Starter
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Well hello again swamp, I got the papers in owensburo at the shop, not in the trailer
video 1. 10.5 to 1 with 13lbs of boost doesn't sound like a great idea , isn't that a supercharger? So where is the heat with that? Was the headders coated mine are black so it stands out

the 2nd video is absurd, no count if everyone who had a turbo kits headders did that then there would be a whole lot less of them.

in the 3rd i see a bit of red not the orange kinda hard to see the tubing
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post #24 of 64 Old 10-18-2007, 05:33 PM
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Alright, Im freshly rested so here goes. Heres a list of what temperature metals glow, seein as how most engine bays are dark you'll start seeing the color change early.
C F
400 752 Red heat, visible in the dark
474 885 Red heat, visible in the twilight
525 975 Red heat, visible in the daylight
581 1077 Red heat, visible in the sunlight
700 1292 Dark red
800 1472 Dull cherry-red
900 1652 Cherry-red
1000 1832 Bright cherry-red
1100 2012 Orange-red
Most people dont go around looking at their headers, and I hate to break it to you but alot of gasoline engines run egt's over 1300, depending on how long and the thickness of material etc it would be very very easy for a header and to glow orange. And the turbo's are designed to withstand it. I've been to school at several different turbocharger manufacturers and at some point they usually brag about the fact turbochargers are subject to these high temps and are designed to take it. Hence why materials such as titanium and ceramics have been used to try to combat high heat. Diesels dont have much of a heat issue as their egt's danger zone is several hundred degrees lower than a gas engine.
The videos are to show that when engines produce power they tend to glow orange, nascar motors headers glow orange, when you make power you have to move air, and part of moving air generally makes more heat as the engines thermal properties increase.. Theres more heat in the cylinder head area of 300ci engine making 500hp then there is a 500 502ci motor. It's just the turbochargers also help hold heat in the exhuast area. It's their biggest and in my opinion one of the only draw backs of a turbo engine. That heat is harder on your headers than anything and considering they are not stainless i dont see you having a problem. If you bump your timing a hair and lean it out a tick it will lickely fade somewhat but it probably will never go away completely. From the last time I talked to greg you had a few issues to line out before a final tune. I'd say you were better left safe then sorry.
As far as the 10.5 a/f ratio goes I would be the least concerned about a 10.5 a/f ratio. Matter of fact a turbo car i've worked with for the last 2yrs has ran on a speedy tuned 10.8 a/f ratio making 450whp and 508lb ft tq and has had zero problems in 2 years, including driving to the track going to the local car shows etc, making numerous drag passes with a best of 6.78 at104 on 12psi. I dont know what a/f ratio you want yes having the car come out of the 10's into middle 11's would be closer to ideal, but not many cars have issues from running at 10.5 while under 12psi and heavier loads. I personally requested greg to leave the turbo car i spoke of a little fatter, it was aroun 11.5 the first time and we moved it to around 10.8 at the upper rpm range. Cars a stock block 120,000 motor and is about the only car to run 6's drive to the track and drive home day in and day out. With the only thing replaced this year being a defective radiator cap.
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post #25 of 64 Old 10-18-2007, 06:12 PM
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smurf,
you've really got to get your car right before it goes to the dyno. i know its probably killing you to have your car running right, be patient and then you can get an accurate tune.

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post #26 of 64 Old 10-18-2007, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
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smurf,
you've really got to get your car right before it goes to the dyno. i know its probably killing you to have your car running right, be patient and then you can get an accurate tune.
This is absolutely true. I took my Z28 to the dyno w/ issues, some unknown, some known but ignorant as to how they would affect the tune.

It was terrible trying to tune that car while fixing issues as we found them. I should have done a better job of triple checking things instead of expecting the best tune on the worst setup.

1986 Mustang GT
306 E303, TEA 185 TW, Quicktime Turbo 67mm, Redneck C4 15lbs boost
525hp/626tq
*Sold drivetrain - Rolling Chassis may be available*
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post #27 of 64 Old 10-18-2007, 09:00 PM
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I was at the shop the second day your car was on the dyno. The plugs that were pulled out of your car looked like something that came out out of my John Deere riding mower. They were way to hot. You said you were a tech at a shop. Which shop is it so I know not to take my car there. Everyone that has put a power adder on a car knows you need colder plugs. That is about like you putting the upper intake back on the car. Any mechanic knows wrenching that hard on aluminum your going to strip the holes out. which you did. That is when your wife got out of the truck a called you a dumbass. You can't expect to go to someone elses shop, use there rack and tools and have them help you and think there not going to still charge you. Any mechanic should have checked for fuel leaks and such before even bringing the car to the dyno. Greg tuned my blower Sn95 car and it idles and drives better than stock. You should maybe think about double checking your workbefore taking it back to the dyno. Speedy's is top notch. Don't blame it on your crappy workmanship and inability to research the parts you put on your car
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post #28 of 64 Old 10-18-2007, 09:15 PM
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so the bottom line in all of this is, have your ducks i a row, make sure you can criticize your own work before you do someone elses. Greg is one of very few people id trust to work on or tune my car.
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post #29 of 64 Old 10-18-2007, 09:44 PM
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I have to agree.

You can't burn a relationship with a reputable shop because you could possibly have overlooked some things. I'm not going to take a shot at your skills but you should keep in mind that perhaps something you did or didn't do has caused an issue.

Now, the tuner/shop would probably let bigons be bigons and continue to help you, depending on how much you have or are willing to possibly slander them. That depends on you.

Continue to research stuff. When I put the blower on my old Z28 I didn't know anything about colder plugs and such. Hell, it was my first forced induction car.

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306 E303, TEA 185 TW, Quicktime Turbo 67mm, Redneck C4 15lbs boost
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*Sold drivetrain - Rolling Chassis may be available*
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post #30 of 64 Old 10-18-2007, 10:45 PM
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Sounds like a poor running car was taken to a good tuner.

Bugs need to be close to worked out before going to a tuner. How can he tune if it doesnt run correctly?

2011 GT Whipple 5.0 MT82 580 rwhp 495 rwtq
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post #31 of 64 Old 10-19-2007, 12:06 AM
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fast cat & swapdonkey i think you you are a bunch of of a tools &

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post #32 of 64 Old 10-19-2007, 04:21 AM
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Quote:
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fast cat & swapdonkey i think you you are a bunch of of a tools &
lol.. Well I value you your opinion.. Obviously.

However I just assume your involved with this cluster f%ck of a car.
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post #33 of 64 Old 10-19-2007, 08:55 AM Thread Starter
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Smile read the whole post before reposting already covered stuff

I was at the shop the second day your car was on the dyno. The plugs that were pulled out of your car looked like something that came out out of my John Deere riding mower. They were way to hot. You said you were a tech at a shop. Which shop is it so I know not to take my car there. Everyone that has put a power adder on a car knows you need colder plugs. That is about like you putting the upper intake back on the car. Any mechanic knows wrenching that hard on aluminum your going to strip the holes out. which you did. That is when your wife got out of the truck a called you a dumbass. You can't expect to go to someone elses shop, use there rack and tools and have them help you and think there not going to still charge you. Any mechanic should have checked for fuel leaks and such before even bringing the car to the dyno. Greg tuned my blower Sn95 car and it idles and drives better than stock. You should maybe think about double checking your workbefore taking it back to the dyno. Speedy's is top notch. Don't blame it on your crappy workmanship and inability to research the parts you put on your car.

Well thats great on the plugs but if you read the whole post then you see where we addressed that issue. Maybe they were hotter then they should have been but where do you get off talking crap about my ability to fix cars at my work. Go screw yourself ! If you knew so much about fixing cars as you do running your mouth then you could fix your car yourself and not have to worry about me fixing it at work! Yes I know that wrenching on aluminum that hard isn't a great idea but trying to hurry and get things done so that i could go to work. I asked my wife about that and she said that she has no clue what you are talking about. I knew that i was going to get charged duh.. Where do you get off putting your 2 cents in anyways? There is a reason I didn't check for fuel leaks, maybe you should know the whole story before accusing people. I didn't have all of the fuel lines until we got there. So how would you start your brand new turbo motor with 60# injectors and a big air 2800 with out a fuel line?? Just fire it up and let it wash the car down or see how far it can squirt, or let the maf calculations of a brand new meter wash the cylinders down ? sct mass air meters don't have sample tubes, way to go i will have to remember that one! So what did I miss on the researching ?



so the bottom line in all of this is, have your ducks i a row, make sure you can criticize your own work before you do someone elses. Greg is one of very few people id trust to work on or tune my car
Nope still not the bottom line,, DON"T TUNE A CAR WITH A VACCUM LEAK!!! I can criticize my own work I know I make mistakes as well as everyone does. Thats why we aren't God. Well good for you on that trust thing it will get you far. everything seemed to be working out until people who don't know whats going on try to give advise. And for you info I wasn't going to cause a huge issue like you guys want it to be because i didn't have my ducks in a row and wanted to find out information before saying something slanderous.

I have to agree.

You can't burn a relationship with a reputable shop because you could possibly have overlooked some things. I'm not going to take a shot at your skills but you should keep in mind that perhaps something you did or didn't do has caused an issue.

Now, the tuner/shop would probably let bigons be bigons and continue to help you, depending on how much you have or are willing to possibly slander them. That depends on you.

Continue to research stuff. When I put the blower on my old Z28 I didn't know anything about colder plugs and such. Hell, it was my first forced induction car.


Now please read the whole post before trying to say that i was trying to burn a relationship with a shop,
1 i never named the shop somthing that everyone on here seems not to have READ!! I did overlook things and it happens when you have to rush to make a deadline, the whole car was built in less then 2 months. Lest get somthing straight. I didn't slander anyone just asked for information.



Sounds like a poor running car was taken to a good tuner.

Bugs need to be close to worked out before going to a tuner. How can he tune if it doesnt run correctly?

Lol on that if you read the whole post it was not a poor running car it was a non running car!!


lol.. Well I value you your opinion.. Obviously.

However I just assume your involved with this cluster f%ck of a car.

Who the hell are you to call my car a cluster f%ck, seems as if your piece of crap breaks down a lot if all you do is come down there all the time?

Last edited by smurfmobile8586; 10-19-2007 at 09:11 AM.
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post #34 of 64 Old 10-19-2007, 09:50 AM
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Now please read the whole post before trying to say that i was trying to burn a relationship with a shop,
1 i never named the shop somthing that everyone on here seems not to have READ!! I did overlook things and it happens when you have to rush to make a deadline, the whole car was built in less then 2 months. Lest get somthing straight. I didn't slander anyone just asked for information.

I have read the entire thread. AFTER the shop identified itself you proceeded to get into a pissing match with the guy - probably not a good idea. It may not be direct slander but when you're bitching at a guy about his tune on a public forum it's an indirect slander to those that may be looking at this guy for work. And, in this case from what i've read, it's a bit unfair. You took a car to the dyno for a tune before it was ready.

I understand the rushing part of it, it sucks but sometimes has to be done.

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I have read the entire thread. AFTER the shop identified itself you proceeded to get into a pissing match with the guy - probably not a good idea. It may not be direct slander but when you're bitching at a guy about his tune on a public forum it's an indirect slander to those that may be looking at this guy for work. And, in this case from what i've read, it's a bit unfair. You took a car to the dyno for a tune before it was ready.


Here we go again, I did get into a pissing contest for asking questions on here. My questions were for information not to enter this pissing contest which everyone is turning it into. So in your opinion what could have been done to make it ready?
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