speed density and boost will they work together? - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
 
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post #1 of 13 Old 11-04-2005, 08:37 PM Thread Starter
 
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speed density and boost will they work together?

Ok guys i have a 88 t-bird the engine is the same as what you guys see in a 86 gt 5.0 - e6 heads, h.o intake , stock roller cam, etc.

well my question is how well does the speed density ecm do with boost?



here was the plan

stock 300zx turbo's there like t-25's maybe a hair smaller

stock shorties flipped w/t-3 flanges welded on

some kind of fmu maybe a vortec

255 lph fuel pump

and a volvo intecooler.

was not planning on more the 6-8 psi boost and dont want to spend a mint in it.nor do i want to blow it up.


Last edited by SLEEPER 2.3 TURBO; 11-10-2005 at 10:38 PM.
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post #2 of 13 Old 11-05-2005, 04:19 AM
 
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i was asking the same thing, just do the conversion, without some kind of tuning device speed density is "retarded" the conversion is easy and will work.

i skipped steps 5 and 6 and have no problems

http://www.stangnet.com/tech/maf/massairconversion.html

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post #3 of 13 Old 11-05-2005, 01:36 PM
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Speed density does not work well at all with boost....but it CAN work.

3 ways.... with an FMU and a check valve in the line to the map sensor so it never sees boost.... this is not a bad solution, and works....but is not optimal. The early blower kits for SD did it this way, like my old ball drive paxton.

better way IMHO.... purchase an add on injector controller and plumb in some additional injectors. A nice unit like the one from 034 EFI is like $275 on eaby. Then you get fully mappable (laptop) control over the second injectors... you still need to check valve the stock map sensor.

The old JY way.... plumb in a couple cold start injectors of early Volvos/GM's or whatever and activate them with a pressure sensitive switch. Some guys have staged this, having one set come on at 2 psi, the next one at 4 psi, the next one at 6 psi or whatever your fueling needs require... still gotta check valve the map sensor.

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Incon TT 5.0 Stock Short, 9.79 and best of 142.5mph. Pump Gas A9L 383w 9.26 @ 151


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post #4 of 13 Old 11-05-2005, 03:25 PM
 
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Speed density does not work well at all with boost....but it CAN work.
exactly what toma said.............it can work and their are steps needed to make it work, one of the biggest is not trying to cram alot of boost into the motor.......

Personally, you will be better off to do the conversion from speed to maf.....
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post #5 of 13 Old 11-05-2005, 07:13 PM
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Have you guys tried it or are you speaking about other peoples endeavors?
There a ton of use Speed Density Blown Lightning owners out there. Most run FMU and 19-30lb injectors. There are still a few of us running bigger injectors 42-60lb'ers without FMU's and a tuning device like a tweecer without any issues. On our EEC's there are parameters can be changed to make them run hard. As you know SD is MAP and RPM based, true the map doesnt see boost but the fuel tables can be changed to reflect the boost level at that rpm. If you know your way around the EEC, it is pretty easy deal. Most of us SD guys will run circles around equivalently equipted MA trucks, besides you dont have that meter obstructing the inlet side of the blower. Just my .02. SD does run and drivability is The only real limiting item is cam overlap and lobe separation angle. The think has to idle well with good vacuum or the MAP will send it into fits. I run a factory HO cam in my truck and it flies. Boost level has nothing to do with it, I've run 6-16. Running 15psi through an IC now. Easier to tune a SC though.

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post #6 of 13 Old 11-05-2005, 08:39 PM
 
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no, i have never done this on a speed density car, I have just done alot of reading and studing on the best way to maximize turbo systems..........yes speed density set up's can run and do run...........personally, that just isn't the way i would spend my money on such an investment......
Quote:
was not planning on more the 6-8 psi boost
if he stay's within these limit's, it will run just fine..........i know from experience though, once you have tasted 8psi, you are going to want 10psi and so on.......if you can truly enjoy the 6-8psi, the speed density will treat you fine.

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post #7 of 13 Old 11-05-2005, 09:06 PM
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I dont understand what criteria you are using to say that SD is OK for 6-8psi but not for above 10psi. Is this something that you have experienced personally or know of somebody? Or, something you have read somewhere??
I too have seen it written too, but there is absolutely no merit in it from my point of view.

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post #8 of 13 Old 11-05-2005, 09:44 PM Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wyominghotwheels
no, i have never done this on a speed density car, I have just done alot of reading and studing on the best way to maximize turbo systems..........yes speed density set up's can run and do run...........personally, that just isn't the way i would spend my money on such an investment......if he stay's within these limit's, it will run just fine..........i know from experience though, once you have tasted 8psi, you are going to want 10psi and so on.......if you can truly enjoy the 6-8psi, the speed density will treat you fine.

hotwheels of insanemustangs.com

yeah, I have ran many 2.3's with 25+psi


I feel 6-8 psi would be all i could see with the stock cast pistons/headgaskets/bottom end. anyway it is my daily driver so i dont want it to unfriendly


And thanks guys for all the replies. I hope to start into this project this week maybe a completion in 2 weeks.
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post #9 of 13 Old 11-06-2005, 08:31 AM
 
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Okay, here are my thought's on speed density......"please remember, you can turbocharge anything, it is just a matter of flexibility."

Speed Density: a Speed Density system still has no sensors that directly measure engine airflow, all the fuel mapping points must be preprogrammed, so any significant change to the engine that alters its VE requires reprogramming the computer. Your map on the ford mustang is more then likely a 1 bar, to increase your boost level's, you can buy another bar sensor of 3 bar.
Your speed density ECU has preprogramed standard's installed, therefore, it tries to assume that your engine will always be within these parameters.

Maf Set up: Mass Air Flow (MAF) systems use a sensor mounted in front of the throttle body that directly measures the amount of air inducted into the engine. The most common type of mass-flow sensor is the hot wire design: Air flows past a heated wire that’s part of a circuit that measures electrical current. Current flowing through the wire heats it to a temperature that is always held above the inlet air temperature by a fixed amount. Air flowing across the wire draws away some of the heat, so an increase in current flow is required to maintain its fixed temperature. The amount of current needed to heat the wire is proportional to the mass of air flowing across the wire. The mass-air meter also includes a temperature sensor that provides a correction for intake air temperature so the output signal is not affected by it. The MAF sensor’s circuitry converts the current reading into a voltage signal for the computer, which in turn equates the voltage value to mass flow. MAF systems also use additional sensors similar to those found in Speed Density systems. Once the electronic control module (ECM) knows the amount of air entering the engine, it looks at these other sensors to determine the engine’s current state of operation (idle, acceleration, cruise, deceleration, operating temperature, and so on),
(((then refers to an electronic map to find the appropriate air/fuel ratio and select the fuel-injector pulse width required to match the input signals.))) This to me, is what is important in a great tune and increased boost levels, to safely maintain your engines preformance.


Now, this is a fact on the speed density systems when comparing them to a maf system: Speed Density systems won’t tolerate major engine changes without computer reprogramming, which usually requires the services of an outside specialist, or an aftermarket ECU. Without the upgrade to an aftermarket set up, Speed Density system will have difficulty due to an erratic or insufficient manifold vacuum signal.


To me, if you truly want a nice turbo set up, Mass Air is the way to go, due to its superior accuracy and greater tolerance for engine changes. In the past there was a problem on high-horsepower engines because larger-capacity MAF sensors were scarce and prohibitively expensive. Nowadays, oversize MAF sensors are available from Pro-M, Granatelli Racing, and other sources that are compatible with Ford engines and computers. Custom MAF calibration keyed to the specific vehicle, engine, and injector size is also available. With a correctly calibrated oversize meter, reflashing the Ford computer usually isn’t required. (However, before you run out for a larger Ford MAF meter, Fast Track Performance points out that the first limiting factors are the puny Ford 19 lb/hr injectors, which can only support about 320 hp.)

Please try to remember, all i am doing is trying to give information based on my limited knowledge on power adding. I have been involved with turbocharging for a few year's now, and by all account's i am still a novice to this hobby. If i was really good, i wouldn't own a car that only get's into the 12's @ 6200' above sea level, it would be more into the 8's or 9's.
I am just trying to give information based on how i understand ECU car's and what would be the best money spent for building your turbocharged engine, so that it can be enjoyed for years to come.


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post #10 of 13 Old 11-06-2005, 08:46 AM
 
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One last note, about a year and a half ago, i purchased a book from this site: http://www.efi101.com/index.html Because i really had the same question's and wanted to try to understand how the ecu worked inconjuction with a boosted motor. The book is now 13.97, which is a great price now compared to when it was new. Although i can't afford to go to one of the training session's, i tried on my budget to learn as much as i could about efi car's and how boost affect's them....

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post #11 of 13 Old 11-06-2005, 09:31 AM
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Now, this is a fact on the speed density systems when comparing them to a maf system: Speed Density systems won’t tolerate major engine changes without computer reprogramming, which usually requires the services of an outside specialist, or an aftermarket ECU. Without the upgrade to an aftermarket set up, Speed Density system will have difficulty due to an erratic or insufficient manifold vacuum signal.

Very True.

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post #12 of 13 Old 11-10-2005, 03:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SLEEPER 2.3 TURBO
Ok guys i have a 88 t-bird the engine is the same as what you guys see in a 86 gt e6 heads, h.o intake , stock roller cam, etc.

my question is how well does the speed density ecm do with boost?
Well turbocoupes aren't speed density, that are VAM - Vain Air Metered (predesessor of MAF...made in 84 for the 4 banger ford turbos)

Unfortunately you SHOULD go with a MAF if your gonna go turbo or TT

I'm SD with my 86 and I'd love to remain that way. If I figure out a without going Stand Alone I'll let you know.

Click on my link - then go to my buddy Steve's website about his 12 second 84 SVO. Your car already has all the good stuff on it that he upgraded to. See what he's done and and you'll be fast in no time. You may want to upgrade to a T3 turbo (which was stock on his car), you have an IHI....and I am looking to buy two decent mileaged ones for my TT kit.
Also, if you aren't a member join www.turboford.org

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Last edited by Scones; 11-10-2005 at 03:28 AM.
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post #13 of 13 Old 11-10-2005, 10:35 PM Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Scones
Well turbocoupes aren't speed density, that are VAM - Vain Air Metered (predesessor of MAF...made in 84 for the 4 banger ford turbos)]
I know ive blown a bunch apart But the car in question is a 1988 5.0L t-bird


Quote:
Originally Posted by Scones
Unfortunately you SHOULD go with a MAF if your gonna go turbo or TT)]
The car will recive maf eventually


Quote:
Originally Posted by Scones
I'm SD with my 86 and I'd love to remain that way. If I figure out a without going Stand Alone I'll let you know.)]






Quote:
Originally Posted by Scones
Click on my link - then go to my buddy Steve's website about his 12 second 84 SVO. Your car already has all the good stuff on it that he upgraded to. See what he's done and and you'll be fast in no time. You may want to upgrade to a T3 turbo (which was stock on his car), you have an IHI....and I am looking to buy two decent mileaged ones for my TT kit.
Also, if you aren't a member join www.turboford.org
Yeah i'm over there as SLEEPERT-BIRD87 I had the h1c holset 2.3 t-bird.
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