turbo v. supercharger help?? - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
 
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post #1 of 22 Old 04-08-2005, 01:49 PM Thread Starter
 
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Lightbulb turbo v. supercharger help??

i have an 02GT w/ SHM comp cams and springs and of course the typical ugraded intake and full exhaust.
-I want to get a turbo kit, but quite frankly i don't know that much about them i need to know what is the recommended kits and what to look for in a turbo...ie-size of turbo, what kit needs, what mods should be done to the car? JUst basically WHAT DO I LOOK FOR??!!
-should i go w/ a twin or single turbo kit? whats the difference
-superchargers i know...everyone has one...r they better or worse than turbos in ur opinion....

guys, help me out w/ this....i sold my last car with a massive S/C on it and now i have the slow car wooooossss

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post #2 of 22 Old 04-08-2005, 02:38 PM
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TURBO

Turbos will always best a supercharger in both horsepower and torque at equal boost levels even if both are tuned correctly. A turbo compressor is much more efficiant at processing air than any available supercharger including centrifugal and roots / srew type blowers.
However, turbo kits tend to be a bit more costly especialy with your model mustang which turbo kits normally require a tubular K member. Labor is much more extensive and as a result much more expensive if your not planning on doing the work your self.

If your power goal is very high, and if your motor is capable of handling high power levels, than the twin kit or a large single setup would be wanted. Remember, with turbo kits come a lot of little luxeries such as an in car variable boost controller. With super chargers boost adjusting comes by way of pulley changing. Of coarse your gonna have to be out of the car and this takes about 20-30 minutes. However with an in car boost controller, you can simply dial in more or less boost, in your car while its running!
So if your setup isnt quite ready for high boost applications, you can run it at 6 psi and when your setup is ready, you can simply dial in more boost.

However larger turbo setups tends to spool up a little later in the RPM's than smaller ones. If your looking for immediate boost, turbos can still best the screw / roots type blower by way of a smaller turbo. With the big loww-end torque of the V8, a smaller turbo will fully spool up just off idle.

As far as mods to your motor for turbo use: it would basicly be the same as supercharger / nitrous apps for the internals, intercooling is highly reccomended with turbo apps and of coarse as with any setup, tuning is the key to long life and performance.

Check out this web site, its a bit out dated but it will generally throw you in the right direction http://www.turbomustangs.com/redirects/kits.htm

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post #3 of 22 Old 04-08-2005, 03:21 PM Thread Starter
 
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Nice, nice, nice...i knew about the turbo lag and that definatly helped to answer that question, but what size is considered a big or small turbo...see, money wise if u r going to invest in something u might as well as do it right, that is why i was thinking about twin or 1 really big one....especially since u can adjust the boost in the car...that i didn't know... all i knew is like u said w/ Superchargers u have to adjust the pulleys, and when u get them tunned u tune the car specifically for the pulley or boost the u want out of it....does that mean that when u get a turbo ur tune will recognize different settings, or will the car be tunned for 1 specific setting and vary in performance according to ur adjustments??
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post #4 of 22 Old 04-08-2005, 03:43 PM
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If your running a MAF it will adjust the fuel accordingly within a certain perameter. The best, most exact way (if your willing to spend money on a new comp system) is to have different program settings for different boost levels. For example, lets say you would have three different programs, 1 for 4 psi, 2 for 8psi and three for 12 psi. Each program would have a different air /fuel / timing map for each seperate boost level set as per your tuning sessions. So if you want to make sure your air / fuel /timing is optimized perfectly for each boost setting, you would adjust both the boost and program accordingly.
This "perfection" can be acheived with the right equipment.

But remember you do not have to have such a detailed program system to run turbos. As stated earlier if your running a MAF, you can change your injectors and fuel supply that can work within a range of boost levels. The MAF will adjust the supply accordingly to the amount of air it registers within its range. Of coarse your fuel system can be pegged if you dial in too much for your fuel setup.
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post #5 of 22 Old 04-08-2005, 03:45 PM
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Ohh, you can also reduce spool up time by using ball bearing turbos. Though this is often an expensive upgrade for the benefit, unless you want to be the best and or dont have a budget.
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post #6 of 22 Old 04-08-2005, 04:47 PM Thread Starter
 
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so would u say an average good size turbo is in the 60's mm range...anything bigger is huge and smaller might be considered small?
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post #7 of 22 Old 04-08-2005, 10:30 PM
 
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no. thats is worng.

Also, spool time is msotly eliminated when using the right sized turbine.
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post #8 of 22 Old 04-09-2005, 02:29 AM Thread Starter
 
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please explain...any and all info helps...thanks alot zmoke...
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post #9 of 22 Old 04-09-2005, 11:54 AM
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Check out "El Guapos" Website, WHAT DA F--K! Messico? Sorry I dont see the humor.
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post #10 of 22 Old 04-09-2005, 06:51 PM Thread Starter
 
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lol....what is the deal w/ "A/R"

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post #11 of 22 Old 04-20-2005, 04:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zmokedawg
WHAT DA F--K! Messico?
You know, where Messicans live.

A/R refers to the "air to radius ratio", also known as 'air ratio'. The bigger the number, the more air a turbine can flow and the slower it will spool.

1968 Mustang notchback-H/C/I/E/etc.
1972 Pinto Runabout-2.3T/T5/MS-II.
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post #12 of 22 Old 04-20-2005, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GT Madness
A/R refers to the "air to radius ratio", also known as 'air ratio'. The bigger the number, the more air a turbine can flow and the slower it will spool.
Sorry, that's not even close - it is the area/radius ratio - as in area of the throat at the intake and radius of the scroll in the housing.

Most of the 2v tubo kits available are not very good in my opinion. Turbos are not superchargers - the turbo chosen is very critical, you can't just slap a turbo on it and run any boost level you want and make tons of HP. A well chosen, matched turbo is better than a SC. Look at the Incon kits on 5.0s - those kits were well engineered and made TONS of power at relatively low boost levels. When looking at a turbo kit, don't just look at the max HP they advertise, look at the HP/boost level. With a turbo you have to have a well designed intake and exhaust system. You also need a turbo that will run at its efficiency range at whatever boost/power level you want while still maintaining an aceptable pressure ratio (exhaust backpressure vs. boost). It's a real balancing act. A person can probably design a better kit themselves than most of the kits out there, but you better know how to read a compressor map and really understand all the factors involved.

Basically for 2v engines, if it were me, I'd get a SC - much easier to do and make power with.

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post #13 of 22 Old 04-20-2005, 10:50 AM Thread Starter
 
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So, u just don't like 2v kits or there r not actually any out there that run efficently...or they don't yield enough power? i have found some pretty nice (as the company's info claims) turbo kits but they r expensive as hell. Also, the thing i like is as u clime in power w/ a turbo, the tq stays up there...and they seem to have the possiblility to change and adapt a little more easily as ur car/motor/power needs change...
thanks
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post #14 of 22 Old 04-20-2005, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don 95Vert
Basically for 2v engines, if it were me, I'd get a SC - much easier to do and make power with.
I agree with this 100%, if I had a 2V I would get a KB and full exhaust then do a built shortblock down the road and call it a day.

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post #15 of 22 Old 05-02-2005, 11:16 AM
 
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Much of what has been said covers most of it.
Superchargers are generally cheaper and easier to install and tune (Centrifugals have linear boost gain, positive displacement blowers have near instant and constant boost... easier to set up fuel and ignition issues). This is why they're more popular amongst the street crowd. Not everyone can deal with the issues of converting a NA engine to turbo.

As far as turbos, a lot more intricacies are involved concerning everything from setup to performance. "Lag" is somewhat overated in domestic V8s which usually have larger displacements than the smaller engines (that you see have lag problems). A 350 or 351 with a 76GTS turbo can hit full boost by ~3k-3500 rpm with a .96 A/R, and that turbo is capable of over 1000rwhp (i've seen numerous examples with ~20-23psi). Installation is tougher, price is usually higher, and tuning must be set up to mirror boost levels since they can vary widely with rpm and throttle (both injector duty cycles and spark advance/retard), which inherently means more money involved. How much? It depends.

Power levels... this area has been a hot topic of discussion for decades. Take two idential cars at 700rwhp. Both running 15psi of boost with the SC and turbo at the same cfm-rated compressor, and both shift at 6k rpm. In most cases the turbocharged car will be faster and quicker. Why? Take a look at their dyno graphs, not necessarily the peak numbers, but at the AREA UNDER THE TORQUE CURVES. Assuming the turbo is setup "properly" to hit full boost at a respectable 4k, it's torque curve will produce a more broad and thicker range in the rpm window the engine runs in while going down the track (or the streets, for you street racers). This area represents a key and very sought after point in the racing world. Torque is a measure of the "force" the engine produces, horsepower represents the "work" done by that force. In simpler terms, hp is the rate at which the torque is applied. This is why supras can make 900rwhp with only 500rwtq... they can hold that 500rwtq for very high rpms (sometimes over 8000), and so that torque can perform more work on the car's mass than many engines making more torque at far fewer rpm. They generally suck at the track, but supras do have hideous top end. Now take some turbocharged V8s making 900rwhp, at this level most will make 7-800 lb-ft of torque at lower rpm with a much more broad torque curve. It will utterly spank the supra in almost any type of race, even though the car with the V8 may be heavier (remember F=ma , torque is "equal" to F).
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post #16 of 22 Old 05-02-2005, 01:07 PM Thread Starter
 
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thanks
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post #17 of 22 Old 05-04-2005, 06:58 AM
 
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Well technically the torque is the work by the definition of work. Torque is not force but force times a distance. Horsepower is the work done divided by the amount of time taken. That being said, turbos are better. I don't see why anyone would waste time on a cent. blower. Maybe a twin screw but those don't usually perform well racing. No traction.
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post #18 of 22 Old 05-04-2005, 09:35 AM
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That being said, turbos are better. I don't see why anyone would waste time on a cent. blower. Maybe a twin screw but those don't usually perform well racing. No traction.
Because maybe some people do mods to their cars for different reasons than why you would do mods.

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post #19 of 22 Old 05-11-2005, 10:57 PM
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post #20 of 22 Old 05-14-2005, 10:50 AM
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I thought about this very thing months ago. I went supercharged. I could not justify the cost of a turbo kit and at the time HP seemed the way to go. The wait times were unacceptable. I went S-Trim and used the PMS to tune. I have zero experience but several guys on here helped me out. I am impressed to say the least. Car drive like stock and has plenty of power. I am going to a dyno to find out how much power it makes. I even called Hellion two days ago and was seriously thinking of a turbo but every time I get in my car I think to myself I should leave well enough alone. I only know of one guy that had a turbo and the tuning was nightmare. I have not blown a headgasket or really had any problems since I put it on. So long story short I think for a street driven car a supercharger is the way to go. IMHO

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post #21 of 22 Old 05-24-2005, 08:23 PM Thread Starter
 
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See, that is the prob w/ superchargers, Everyone has one, and except for the money issue a turbo system seems to out way a supercharging system, and depending on setup it is a little more original and capable (fun).
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post #22 of 22 Old 05-25-2005, 07:24 PM
 
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Resist the dark side... Do Twins
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