TWIN-TURBO 5.0 - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
 
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post #1 of 24 Old 04-27-2003, 10:55 PM Thread Starter
 
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Thumbs up TWIN-TURBO 5.0

Hey everybody i got a question...
What do you all think about me TWIN-TURBOING my 1988 5.0 LX...i want to rebuild my engine and bore it .030" over..so with twin-turbo and intercooler i think i can pull off 565HP!!! ..can everyone give me some tips and places where i can get the headers for the turbos and an intercooler.? that would be great...Laso if anybody knows of any good engine shops in CT that do good work..that would be great. also if anybody can give me any information on anything dealing with twin-turboing...like how long it should take to build. that would be good. I already have the two Garret T-03 turbos.
Thanks

DaN

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post #2 of 24 Old 04-27-2003, 11:14 PM
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a few ?'s for you first
why '565 horsepower'? and if you are talking about 565rwhp then you are going to need a good aftermarket block b/c the stock block is going to split shortly thereafter no matter what internals it has in it. also, i doubt you'll be able to make 565rwhp on a pair of T3's...going to need a pair of t3/t4's b/c even with the t3's absolutely maxed (assuming they are the bigger .63 a/r's) you won't be able to hit 565rwhp imo.

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post #3 of 24 Old 04-28-2003, 09:33 PM Thread Starter
 
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well i did a horsepower calculator on a website and it said with T-03's at 12 PSI it would have 565hp..so i am going on that. what type of block would you recommend me getting?
DaN
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post #4 of 24 Old 04-29-2003, 03:38 AM
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Dart or A4 block.

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99 Procharged Cobra sold
95 Cobra single turbo. [email protected] stock block.


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post #5 of 24 Old 04-29-2003, 01:15 PM
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Ha Ha Ha, the guys here are smart. They will help you with your project. But the $$$$ flow is gonna be strong for 565 RWHP. I would see how much cash you can throw at the project. If you start looking at A4 block and built bottem ends, its gonna get expensive. Are the T3's junkyard or new? Try

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post #6 of 24 Old 04-29-2003, 03:15 PM
 
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Re: TWIN-TURBO 5.0

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Originally posted by 88FiVe-ohh
....i want to rebuild my engine and bore it .030" over..so with twin-turbo and intercooler i think i can pull off ..... ..can everyone give me some tips and places where i can get the headers for the turbos and an intercooler.? ....... also if anybody can give me any information on anything dealing with twin-turboing...like how long it should take to build. that would be good. I already have the two Garret T-03 turbos.
I'm in CT too......and I don't know of anyone that has a good rep for building motors. That's not to say there isn't any, just I haven't found any that do honest to goodness good work, especially turbo orientated. That being said, I think DSS is the best overall package to just go out and buy. If you can install the motor yourself, you'll save quite abit and you could invest the savings in turbo parts or just a better engine.

I'd use shorty headers for twin turbos, they're relatively cheap and readily available. Mount the turbos as high as possible, as gravity drainback for the lube oil is by far best. Running a scavenge pump to pump the oil back into the engine sump is just too risky IMO. Plus, gravity is free, use it!

Be sure the A/R ratio is the same on the turbos you have......they do come in different sizes if you didn't know. Are they water cooled too?......if so, you'll need to run a coolant line to them as well.

For an intercooler, I'd skip it for now, until you get well aquainted with the power and establish a safe tune. Boost less than 8 psi really doesn't require an I/C anyways......plus they're expensive to buy too.

Be sure you have plenty of fuel capacity, meaning large injectors and a big fuel pump. Run a turbo motor lean (or any power adder for that matter) and it'll go kabooom in no time for sure .

Buy Corky Bell's "Maximum Boost" or some other turbo design book to do it right the first time. No fun doing things over and over ya know.
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post #7 of 24 Old 04-29-2003, 05:43 PM
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Norwalk Machine Shop

There is a shop in Norwalk, CT called specialty automotive supply and machine -- I've had all my engine work done there and I've heard NOTHING but RAVE reviews on his assembly work as well. VERY small shop, VERY small customer base -- basically just people who come back for more because they know the work is quality.

Specialty Automotive Supply and Machine
15 Orchard Street
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post #8 of 24 Old 04-29-2003, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 88FiVe-ohh
well i did a horsepower calculator on a website and it said with T-03's at 12 PSI it would have 565hp..so i am going on that. what type of block would you recommend me getting?
DaN
ok, to make this simple, if that is the power you plan to make in a street car with jy t3's (maybe with some huge custom one from one of the companies but not w/ what you find in your typical salvage yard), it is NOT going to happen. you may as well be told all this before you start the project so you can either change the turbos or hp goals before starting into it good. they don't displace enough air to make 565rwhp and they DEFINITELY do NOT come even close to displacing enough air at 12psi to do it. that being said, if you still want to make that power and have those goals, after looking into a built shortblock, i'd look into some t3/t4 hybrid turbos.

Last edited by 92fastlx; 04-29-2003 at 10:35 PM.
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post #9 of 24 Old 04-30-2003, 12:10 AM
 
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if you have a OIL + WATER cooled turbo, you can block off the water lines NO PROBLEM.

I would say for the easiest and most potential system, get 2 turbos off a 740TURBO VOLVO 2.3lts

TB0326 is the OIL COOLED only model and the
TB0368 is the OIL + WATER cooled. <- SAME exact turbos, only one has an inlet/outlet for WATER, which can be just blocked off no problem.

They can be be pushed upwards 18lbs of boost EACH.

I am only shooting for 425RWHP on top of my H/C/I combo.

GOOOOODLUCK!
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post #10 of 24 Old 04-30-2003, 12:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by yellow5.0cobra
They can be be pushed upwards 18lbs of boost EACH.
how much 'boost it can push' doesn't mean anything. saying each can 'push upwards of 18lbs of boost' doesn't mean they can potentially make 36#'s of boost in a twin setup. turbos aren't rated at making x amount of boost. they are rated in the amount of air they displace - lb/per minute, cfm, etc. boost is just a number, it means virtually nothing. saying a turbo can push 18#'s of boost, that may have been when it was on a 2.3 liter volvo which is UNDER HALF the displacement of a v8 mustang. this means you have twice the volume and your 'boost' number just went way down. that's like comparing 18psi in a bicycle tire to 18 psi in a dump truck tire...large difference in the volume involved at that pressure. that being said, you may want to read a few compressor maps on the turbos you're choosing as you'll need that to know how much the turbos really flow and at what pressure, etc. if you get 2 small turbos, you can run '18#'s of boost' and make 425rwhp, then bolt two bigger turbos to that same setup and same set of flanges and make 600rwhp at '18#'s of boost' so your reference that that in relation to your model turbo doesn't mean much. hopefully some of that makes some sense.

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post #11 of 24 Old 04-30-2003, 12:21 PM Thread Starter
 
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92fastlx...all the info you have given me has been very helpful thanks.
Also, everyone else who posted has helped alot too...i actually keep changing my mind about what type of power adder i want for my car...i think i might actually go in the direction of supercharging...with a powerdyne supercharger at 9spi...if i do some modifications i can get real decent horsepower...hopefully around 400-500 i think i can pull that off.
Thanks for everyone's help on this subject
DaN
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post #12 of 24 Old 04-30-2003, 04:28 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by 88FiVe-ohh
...i think i might actually go in the direction of supercharging...with a powerdyne supercharger at 9spi......hopefully around 400-500 i think i can pull that off.
500 HP with a Powerdyne?.......nope, not gonna happen. They self destruct if they get their pulley changed smaller, so don't go that route. Plus, the centri S/C has so little bottom end power you need to rev the bejesus out of the motor to make boost/power. I know, I used to own a S/C......hated it.

That being said, just use the turbos you got, larger ones will just bolt right up if you're not satisfied. Guaranteed though, what you have will definately shred those rear tires with ease......what more could you ask for .
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post #13 of 24 Old 05-01-2003, 10:36 PM Thread Starter
 
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Turbos need high RPM's too to work fully...the turbos take soo much time to put on which is time i don't have..i am going off the college next year..i won't be home all the time with my car. there is so much welding work i need to do and someone stated that i would need to buy a new block to hold up with the turbos...I DON'T ENOUGH MONEY TO BUY A BRAND NEW BLOCK...with a supercahrger i could just get it rebuilt and have it work nicely..i found a supercharger kit for $1865...which if i save up over the summer i can do. i don't have all the time in the world and welding abilities or even enough knowledge yet to pull off a twin-turbo set-up and have it work perfectly..i could sell both turbos and have some money toward my supercharger..well if i don't go the turbo way..which i am actually still changing my mine still..i can go both ways as long as i can find some friends who know lots about cars and welding to turbocharge my car...I'll just do both..LOL...turbocharging would be real fine by me if i had the time to do it all and have it work really well...but the only problem other than time is that 92fastlx..you said i would need to buy a new block...which is a real lot of $$$$$$ that i am missing...plus all the other good parts i would need to buy like heads and cam and stuff like that...please help me all of you...i really need help on this subject...now hearing more info and seeing more stuff online i so badly want turbos...but not at the expense of getting a nerw block...please help me
PLEASE thanks
DaN
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post #14 of 24 Old 05-02-2003, 12:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 88FiVe-ohh
Turbos need high RPM's too to work fully...the turbos take soo much time to put on which is time i don't have..i am going off the college next year..i won't be home all the time with my car. there is so much welding work i need to do and someone stated that i would need to buy a new block to hold up with the turbos...I DON'T ENOUGH MONEY TO BUY A BRAND NEW BLOCK...with a supercahrger i could just get it rebuilt and have it work nicely..i found a supercharger kit for $1865...which if i save up over the summer i can do. i don't have all the time in the world and welding abilities or even enough knowledge yet to pull off a twin-turbo set-up and have it work perfectly..i could sell both turbos and have some money toward my supercharger..well if i don't go the turbo way..which i am actually still changing my mine still..i can go both ways as long as i can find some friends who know lots about cars and welding to turbocharge my car...I'll just do both..LOL...turbocharging would be real fine by me if i had the time to do it all and have it work really well...but the only problem other than time is that 92fastlx..you said i would need to buy a new block...which is a real lot of $$$$$$ that i am missing...plus all the other good parts i would need to buy like heads and cam and stuff like that...please help me all of you...i really need help on this subject...now hearing more info and seeing more stuff online i so badly want turbos...but not at the expense of getting a nerw block...please help me
PLEASE thanks
DaN
you need to do a TON more research. you are absolutely wrong about having to turn a lot of rpm to use a turbo setup. it is the exact opposite. you make FULL boost almost instantly and maintain it until whatever rpm you decide to shift the car at. with a centrifugal supercharger for example, an s-trim, you don't see full boost by redline. in a setup to make 12#'s at redline, you may see 3#'s at 3500rpm whereas I see full boost at 3500rpm. you have to turn a lot of rpm with the supercharger b/c it is hooked directly to the crankshaft so more boost only comes with more rpm...you understand now? the boost curve provided by a turbo setup is virtually full boost the whole time and not just at redline.

also, you'll be able to make more power on a stock shortblock with a turbo setup than you will with a supercharger. the supercharger uses substantially more power since it is driven off the crank. so if a stock shortblock is rated to 500 hp, figure you're using 40hp already b/c you have a blower belt causing a huge parasitic loss dragging on the crank. so now your potential hp limit is 40hp lower than if you where to use a turbo (over simplified but basically true). so now you are down to only being able to make 460hp on the same stock parts where you can still make 500hp on the stock stuff. so you REALLY need to rethink all your points b/c they are ridiculous. if you can't make your goal of 565hp on stock parts with a turbo, you SURE AS HELL CAN'T DO IT WITH A CHARGER b/c you're essentially using more hp even though it shows the same result.
anyways, you still have a lot of research to do b/c apparently you don't understand how turbos make boost and their curve vs that of a supercharger, the extra power used by the supercharger lowering the potential hp on the same stock parts as well as lowering the power at the same boost level as compared to a turbo, etc. hope you get it all figured out. good luck
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post #15 of 24 Old 05-02-2003, 12:04 AM
 
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HEY 88-FIVE-OH...

BOOST is BOOST, regardless of turbo or supercharger...

I dont know who told you this, but if you are either pushing 15lbs of boost out of a supercharger... dont think it will survive very long... same goes for turbochargers... both have one very important thing in common... BOOST. Too much boost is what kills stock shortblocks.

You dont HAVE to do anything... if you arent running TOO many miles, and your compression is fine... you can boost your car to eh lets say 8lbs and be perfectly OK for many miles.

Now of course down the line it would be fun to get a 331 stroker stuffed in a DART block and rip 900hp with no worries, well other than the tranny dyin on ya!(C4 on that one!)

im in the process of finishing up my twin turbos in my 94'...

I thought it was going to be hard as @#^^ to install... my brain was rakin like crazy! In fact, if you have SOME common sense, it wont be hard to do.

I think If I had all the tooling and equipment, it wouldnt take more than 10hours to install.. that is MY system.

well goodluck on either choice of boost!

Pete
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post #16 of 24 Old 05-02-2003, 12:27 PM
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A real good machine shop by me is in Wallingford CT. The name of the place is E&G Machine. They are not the fastest, but it is done once and done right. No BS from these guys. Also, a word of warning....stay AWAY FROM J&M Corvettes in Manchester, CT.

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post #17 of 24 Old 05-02-2003, 01:03 PM
 
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Im in North Haven along with mike

Right now, the best place to go if you want engine work or anything like that done is CodyMac Motorsports in Wallingford CT www.codymac.com Pat Mussi does their engine work.. Granted this will cost you more than a local shop, but u get better quality than anyone else around...


Im currently running a TT setup on an 89 LX... 308ci

No clue on HP, or ET yet.. May 30th @ LVD i will find out... I WILL be maxing the snails tho.. ~22-24psi.. Borderlining their peak efficiency.


If you want to come down and take a look at the setup IM me on AIM... BoostangLX
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post #18 of 24 Old 05-06-2003, 09:45 PM
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ok, my $0.02

you are young and don't know much. you don't have the time to put into your car, nor the money. I have been researching turbo kits for my car for well over a year, and am just about to order a kit now. Going to college, you will need a reliable car and dont have money, turbo is a bad idea. especially when you will be pushing the limits of your block, or so you predict.

save yourself headaches a few months down the road, and save your money, and research what you want first.

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post #19 of 24 Old 05-08-2003, 12:48 PM
 
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Quote:
BOOST is BOOST, regardless of turbo or supercharger...
You could not be more wrong. Boost pressure has little to do with output on a turbo system. Flow does. Boost completely ignores two very critical components- the temperature and the amount of oxygen available to mix with increased fuel flows.

Boost pressure is a measure of two things- mostly the inability of an engine to use the compressed air that is available to it and the differiential capacity of the compressor and motor at a given rpm. The only component that makes any sense to measure is the weight of the air that flows through the system- that measures the air being used. On a compressor map- it is measured in lbs/minute.

To illustrate the concept: consider a system designed compress air to flow 100 lbs/minute at ambient. If you heat the air, it becomes less dense and will flow say 50 lbs/min- engine output drops 50% as well. If you apply restricter plate into the initial ambient flow, you will also reduce flow to say 50 lbs/minute and the engine output drops 50%. If you increase the size of the pipe or cool the charge, the system flow will increase or become more dense, say 200 lbs/min, and the engine output doubles. The other scenario is to double the pressure through the restrictor plate, but still measure 100 lbs/min flow. Output is the same as before.

Power is a function of air flow. If excess air is available even at high pressure, the power (and block durability) is not affected and engine systems actually lose energy compressing air that is not used.

It took me a long time to understand the simple concept becuse I thought just as you do- when new, the Incon turbo system could generate as much power as the best superchargers at 1/2 the pressure- how could that be?.

The answer was entirely in the air flow rates through an intercooler, especially during the mid range, or torque peak, when the engine needs air the most, and a lesser extent to the parasitic power losses inherent with superchargers. That issue is conveniently ignored by supercharger manufacturer sales data.

Last edited by 2turboz; 05-08-2003 at 12:55 PM.
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post #20 of 24 Old 05-12-2003, 09:21 PM
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boost=pressure, v=volume, t=temp, r=constant
pv=nrt
p=nrt/v
therefore if temp goes up pressure increases.
if volume increase pressure decreases
18 pounds of boost can mean high temp and low volume it depends on several variables. Smaller turbo's heat up as they try to make more boost. When this happens the desity of the incoming air charge is decreased which means less power

1986 stang with TF TW heads and a Street intake, 36 pound injectors and pro-m calibrated MAF, 89 computer, Borla exhaust, Stock TB and CAM, roller rockers 1.6 ratio, stock shortblock with studded mains, and a T-5, twin T-3 .60/.63 turbo's ITS heafers and downpipes, Huge 24X16X4 intercooler, Autometer gauges idles like a kitten with stock computer!!!!
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post #21 of 24 Old 05-12-2003, 10:45 PM
 
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Quote:
Smaller turbo's heat up as they try to make more boost
You almost got it right even though you used the abbreviated formula (it ignores the atmospheric pressure differiential)- any turbo or supercharger heats up when they make boost, because the compressing of air creates heat. The size of the turbo has little effect within the physics of your formula- the "r" constant might change a little due to efficiency differences, but that only affects the rate of heat increase.
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post #22 of 24 Old 05-17-2003, 01:01 PM
 
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no man, I was just trying to say BOOST will come from both TURBOS and S/C no matter what.

I was not trying to say antying else but that... sorry for the wrong wording.
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post #23 of 24 Old 06-01-2003, 05:01 PM
 
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Hmmm.... I am having trouble understanding this. I was planning on doing a Turbo Setup on my next stang, but am kind of stupified in the fact of turbo setups and all the math is involved. So it is good reading stuff like this so I can educate myself. But one thing I don't understand, it is that expensive to creat a turbo setup say around 3,000 and only make 565 rwhp? On my 306 setup I built a nice bottom end threw some dart pro 1 200 cc heads on there. Trick Flow upper and lower. All the other little goodies and tuned out 432 rwhp. All Motor. Then I threw a 200 shot and pulled off 554 rwhp. Now I am not trying to battle against turbos here or disrupt the turbo forum. I am just trying to realize why they are so expensive and they don't make as much power as the price says. I mean when you get done just paying for the turbo you obviously have to have a built motor to get the job done safely. You will be dropping some SERIOUS cash with all parts. I have a 91 GT I always wanna keep it 302/306 based. So what turbo kit can I get? Can I get the one time piping and headers and just interchange turbos whenever I want? Someone help me out here with out all the equations. Thanks in advance.
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post #24 of 24 Old 06-01-2003, 10:49 PM
 
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TTT...... just bumping this, didn't want to type my question for nothing.
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