TO4b/TO4e hybrid - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
 
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post #1 of 24 Old 04-10-2003, 11:57 PM Thread Starter
 
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TO4b/TO4e hybrid

TO4b with TO4e 60 trim compressor with .96 A/R hot side. Is this a big enough turbo for a single? With my mods (on page in sig) and being at about 300 rwhp what would it do with a good tune and around 10 psi?

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post #2 of 24 Old 04-11-2003, 08:45 PM Thread Starter
 
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none knows what i am talking about?

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post #3 of 24 Old 04-12-2003, 11:22 AM
 
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No, too small, on a 2 litter DSM a 60 Trim is considered great for a streetable drag orientated racer....max power is about 380 whp, or maybe 420 with a standalone, maybe 450 with race gas....after that the compressor will not flow enough. Get a 62-1 with the same hot side and you'll be alot happier. And try to get a TO4E housing.
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post #4 of 24 Old 04-12-2003, 11:39 AM
 
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Why a t04e housing? Why not a "s"?
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post #5 of 24 Old 04-12-2003, 11:47 AM
 
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The larger you make yur compressor housing, the higher you shift your compressor map north...IE for high boost. In a E your effcient to 30 PSI and flow alot....would you want a stang turbo where effcieny starts at 15 psi and ends at 35 psi to gain 5% more flow, if that? Nah!. The B housing I think doesnot leave anough diffuser area(where boost is actually created in the compressor housing) when stuffed with a -1 wheel. Otherwise I'd want that.
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post #6 of 24 Old 04-12-2003, 12:40 PM
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You guys are stuck in import land... These V8's are alot bigger and these turbos' efficiency ranges aren't near the boost levels you're talking about.

A 60mm turbo on a 302 is good for about 500 hp maxed out. And, you'll only be able to reach about 13-15 lbs in the upper rpm ranges. The efficiency range for that turbo on a mustang (which is also dependent upon RPM. As 12 lbs @ 3000 rpm is different than 12 lbs @ 6000 rpm) would be in the area of 8-10 lbs.

I had a stock T04E 54 trim. Considerably smaller than a '60' and I was able to reach about 400 hp at only 8 lbs. That turbo was maxed out. Boost would climb to over 12 in lower rpm's, but then as rpms climbed, boost would start falling off. This was with the wastegate closed the entire time. That same turbo on a small displacement motor (Eclipse), could probably hit 25 lbs or higher of boost, but not on a V8.

For an entry level turbo, I would say it's a good choice. I do agree to upgrade it to a 62-1, as these are good for almost 600 hp and about 20 psi max, but for the money you can't beat the 60 trim.

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post #7 of 24 Old 04-12-2003, 12:48 PM
 
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No, unfortuneatley your stuck in i don't know about turbos land, and its hard to get out. A turbos effciency range has abosolutely nothing to do with the size of the engine, its based on pressure ratio's. Put that 54 trim in a TO4s and now it DOES flow a bit more but its more effcient at higher pressure ratios, IE peak effciency is at 25 PSI and a low air volume. Put it into a smaller housing and now you can stay effcient at a higher air volume/lower pressure ratio(boost.) So while your turbo is peak effcient at 25 psi, you can only reach 15, ruh roh, bad turbo engineering.

Saying its effcient at high boost is why I said not to do it, i know what I am talking about.
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post #8 of 24 Old 04-12-2003, 01:26 PM
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Yea... WTF do I know, I only have a turbocharged 500 hp mustang created from experience and know how. Maybe you should sit down and read a compressor map sometime, or is that out of your relm of knowledge?

All I can tell you is, try it. Then when it's not working for you, maybe you could open a book and learn a little about engine displacement, lbs/min and pressure ratios.

LOOK AT THE COMPRESSOR MAP for a 60mm. DO THE MATH, and you'll see that anything over about 10 lbs on a 302 in the upper rpm ranges-IS RUNNING OUT OF EFFICIENCY!

Quote:
A turbos effciency range has abosolutely nothing to do with the size of the engine
ROFLMAO... I feel like posting this everywhere to see what kind of laughs I get. This statement couldn't be any more WRONG. If that were the case, why don't we all just put 12g's on our V8's and turn the boost up to 20 lbs and rocknroll.

Why don't you make a few calls and read a few books before you start spreading bad information here. It's guys like you who lead people down the WRONG ROADS.

If you would stop staring at the T04S compressor map (that imports seem to druel over) and look at the 54 map or the 60 map then you MIGHT see what I'm talking about.

READ THE COMPRESSOR MAPS... The truth is there.

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post #9 of 24 Old 04-12-2003, 01:29 PM
 
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OK, your right, i know that moving left or right on the map moves your effciency, I wasn't think about that...I was refering to how changing a compressor housing moves the entire island system up or down.
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post #10 of 24 Old 04-12-2003, 02:31 PM Thread Starter
 
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I am lost now guys. i have had people tell me a 60-1 stage 3 turbine .82 a/r was too small and that it would work. Now i have people tell me the TO4b/TO4e hybrid will be too small.

I admit i dont have alot of knowledge when it comes to turbos. that is why i am asking questions. Seems the more i ask the more i get confused.

I see a cartek kit comes with a t44. How would that perform compared to the 2 turbos above?


Last edited by wrathchild; 04-12-2003 at 02:41 PM.
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post #11 of 24 Old 04-12-2003, 02:52 PM
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The 60-1 stage III turbine you're talking about I think we determined was too small for what you're looking for.

The T04B/T04E hybrid all depends on what size (in mm) compressor it is. A T04E housing is larger overall than a "B" and is supposed to flow more air. The T04E has the 4" inlet and a 2.5" outlet on the compressor compared the the 3" inlet and 2" outlet for the T04B. Aside from the compressor, there isn't much difference between the "E" and "B" if they're both "P" trim turbines. Pretty much everthing interchanges between the two (compressor housings, backplates, wheels, turbine housings).

IMO, if you have a 60 trim T04E compressor on a T04B turbo, you have enough turbo to reach 500-550 hp without overworking it. You could later upgrade that to a 62-1 for about 15% more flow, or just sell it and buy a T66 or larger when you're ready to upgrade.

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post #12 of 24 Old 04-12-2003, 03:51 PM
 
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I say start with a 60-1, its not much worse spool and quite a bit more flow....There are about 8 b housings and a few E housings. My 60-1 E has a 2.75 inch inlet. And No, its not a 60-1 Hifi. A 60 Trim in any housing I dont see ever making 550 hp, thats pushing it very very hard. I have a 60-1 stage 3 on my eclipse =) Good enough compressor for my stang, but if I can spool it on my street car, I think a stang should go bigger...Straight T4 to say the least.
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post #13 of 24 Old 04-12-2003, 07:32 PM Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by 99GTsc
Why a t04e housing? Why not a "s"?
Because i am buying it off a private seller. I can get the TO4b/TO4e hybrid for 400 + shipping or the 60 - 1 for 650 from a friend that builds DSMs.
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post #14 of 24 Old 04-12-2003, 08:05 PM
 
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That 60-1 will be far far far to restrictive to your exhaust.
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post #15 of 24 Old 04-15-2003, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
That 60-1 will be far far far to restrictive to your exhaust.
I agree with that. That 60-1 is based off a T3 turbo. Way too small for a single turbo.

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post #16 of 24 Old 04-17-2003, 12:37 PM Thread Starter
 
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no need to worry anymore. This weekend i am buying 2 low milage GN t3's.
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post #17 of 24 Old 04-18-2003, 03:33 PM
 
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what about the power level for two t4's? i know off your topic but just curious what you guys think
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post #18 of 24 Old 04-18-2003, 03:37 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by mustang50
what about the power level for two t4's? i know off your topic but just curious what you guys think
A stright T4 wont spool off of 2.5 litters well enough to be useable on anything but the most fully race trailer queens.
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post #19 of 24 Old 04-19-2003, 03:46 PM
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A buddy of mine was set on running two t4's on a stock mustang. He finished the project and now realizes what I told him all along. T4's on a mostly stock 302 are better suited for singles. They're just too big to spool up as twins on a stock motor, or mostly stock.

My buddy's car hits: 1 lb in 1st, 2 lbs in 2nd, 5 lbs in 3rd, and 10 lbs in the top of fourth with twin T04b's on an all stock motor.

There are other people running twin t4's on 302's who are making great power, but I think they have a more aggressive engine combination producing more exhaust energy, and maybe smaller a/r's.

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post #20 of 24 Old 04-19-2003, 09:15 PM
 
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i ordered a 331 r block from dss trick flow stage 3 ported heads, big dawg cam, low compression. Will two t4 spool with this motor ok?
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post #21 of 24 Old 04-20-2003, 11:30 PM
 
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so...... what do you guys think?
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post #22 of 24 Old 04-21-2003, 01:29 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by mustang50
so...... what do you guys think?
NO. There is not point. Itsonly 2.5 liters. you can make a T3 exhaust side big enought to make spool suck, you don't need a straight T4.
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post #23 of 24 Old 04-21-2003, 01:54 PM
 
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so t3/t4 or t3?
thanks for the advice
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post #24 of 24 Old 04-21-2003, 02:09 PM
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mustang50,

If you want to use that block, go with two t3/to4e's. Should be able to get a pair for under $1k that will allow you to crest 1000hp very easily and make full boost by 3k-3500.

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