would 2 stock talon 14b turbos work? - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
 
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post #1 of 24 Old 04-04-2003, 10:17 PM Thread Starter
 
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would 2 stock talon 14b turbos work?

Would 2 stock talon 14b turbos produce enough for a 302 application on a twin turbo setup?

I can get these for next to nothing if not for free.

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post #2 of 24 Old 04-05-2003, 11:58 AM
 
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A 14b at 15psi produces 405 cfm...

http://www.vfaq.net/mods/10faq.html

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post #3 of 24 Old 04-12-2003, 11:28 AM
 
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Thats what Im going to use.
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post #4 of 24 Old 04-12-2003, 02:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by 99GTsc
A 14b at 15psi produces 405 cfm...

http://www.vfaq.net/mods/10faq.html
That's a great f'n site!

How can we easily equate CFM to horsepower?? That should make it a little easier to do research and plan my turbo kit...
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post #5 of 24 Old 04-21-2003, 04:22 AM
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If you use the stock 14b's off a mitsu it will spool waaay too fast, and my bet is that they wont last long before shaft play sets in pretty bad. Im a previous owner of a Talon TSi with a 14b and it spooled fast on it, even 2 of them would be pushed past the limits of flow in no time on a V8. Stay away from the little ricer turbos.

Chris
99 Procharged Cobra sold
95 Cobra single turbo. [email protected] stock block.


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post #6 of 24 Old 04-29-2003, 06:31 PM
 
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what cars/trucks? did the 14G and up turbos come on? Were they just aftermarketed? Thanks, Nick
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post #7 of 24 Old 04-29-2003, 07:34 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by NiceGuyNick
what cars/trucks? did the 14G and up turbos come on? Were they just aftermarketed? Thanks, Nick
14B is a stock 5 speed 90-94 Eclipse/Talon/Laser turbo and flows 405 CFM, has a small exhaust side.

13G is a stock auto 90-94 Eclipse/Talon/Laser turbo and flows 385 CFM, but has a TINY exhaust side.

T25 is a stock 2g Eclipse/Talon turbo, manual and 5 speed. Flows bewteen 275 and 305 CFM depending on who you listen to, ****ing tiny.

Conquest's and Starions had 12A's with bigger exhaust sides to mach a low boost 2.6 liter engine. I don't know how those would work but they don't float MY boat.

Colts and mirages are all TINY.

The number (12/13/14) refers to the size of the compressor wheel.

The Letter (A,B,C,G) refers to the style of the compressor blades. B's are all curved and evenly sized. G's are all curved and splitter blade, meaning on big and one small blade next to each other(like a typical Garret)...C's and A's are all evenly sized blades that are more flattish and aren't very good at hgih boost(above 15 psi) The G is the best style but there are no common G series except the 13g, and the 14B is still better.
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post #8 of 24 Old 04-30-2003, 01:55 AM
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Smallest i'd go with would be a ported and clipped 16g killer. Any smaller and your gonna tear that thing to peices.

Chris
99 Procharged Cobra sold
95 Cobra single turbo. [email protected] stock block.


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post #9 of 24 Old 04-30-2003, 02:00 AM
 
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Originally posted by lightweight
Smallest i'd go with would be a ported and clipped 16g killer. Any smaller and your gonna tear that thing to peices.
16g Killers are crap IHI turbos by XS. I ran 20 psi daily on a 14b for a LONG time. Revving to 7k. 20 psi @ 7k on a dual cam 2 liter is so much more air then half a 302 will ever flow off the 14b at less then 6 psi a side(12 total) at 600 rpm max its not funny.
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post #10 of 24 Old 04-30-2003, 01:49 PM
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Originally posted by ItsStockOfficer
16g Killers are crap IHI turbos by XS. I ran 20 psi daily on a 14b for a LONG time. Revving to 7k. 20 psi @ 7k on a dual cam 2 liter is so much more air then half a 302 will ever flow off the 14b at less then 6 psi a side(12 total) at 600 rpm max its not funny.
6 psi a side is not going to give you 12 total. It will still be 6 psi, just more cfm. Also, half a 302 would be 2.5l and will out flow a dohc 2.0. Trust me, the 14b will not be enough. Not saying they wont work, but you will be pushing them way beyond the limits by putting them on a 5l and they will lose efficiency and eventually shoot the ****.

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post #11 of 24 Old 04-30-2003, 02:11 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by lightweight
6 psi a side is not going to give you 12 total. It will still be 6 psi, just more cfm. Also, half a 302 would be 2.5l and will out flow a dohc 2.0. Trust me, the 14b will not be enough. Not saying they wont work, but you will be pushing them way beyond the limits by putting them on a 5l and they will lose efficiency and eventually shoot the ****.
No, if your going to run 12 psi, each side pushed the equivalent airflow of what it would push at 6 PSI. It will have to deal with a 12 psi pressure ratio but it will not be at a high flow rate. You can't ad air withoutincreasing presuure.

And you must be kidding me? 2 4G63's will outflow a stock 302 very very hardcore. And with the 302 running much lower boost and running much lower RPM's? My DSM was flowing over 35 lb/min @ 15 psi and over 55 lbs/min when i had finished buyilding it. You think your 302 will flow 70 lb/smin? RIGHT.

A dual cam huge port 2 liter at 7000 rpm will out flow the **** heads on a 302 at 6000 rpm BAD.

Imagine half a 302 as an inline 2.5 4, running 12 psi, 6000 rpm redline

against a 4G63 2.0 4 running 19 psi, 7000 rpm. The 4g63 flows more air neways, plus redlinig higher significantly increases turbine/compressor speeds.

a 12 psi 2.5 liter SINGLE CAM is well within it reash. My buddy trapped 109 mph on a 14b at 22 psi and the turbo never fell apart. The 14b is as big as most T3's.
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post #12 of 24 Old 04-30-2003, 04:33 PM
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ItsStockOfficer...."you cant add air without increasing pressure"?

lightweight...."It will still be 6 psi, just more cfm."

You both are a little off track, as a mechanical engineer that has take multiple thermodynamics classes, please let me clarify.

first off, 6psi from each turbo will be 6psi total since pressure is not additave. ie, you have 2 air tanks with 6psi and a connecting valve....open the valve, pressure equilizes, 6psi in both tanks, not 12psi.

2nd, since waste gates are part of the closed system of air pressure, they will both crack at the set pressure, 6psi in this case, since they are both measureing from the same source, the manifold.

As for for CFM, that is another story. First off, CFM is a measure of volumetric flow (velocity * area) , not mass flow (kg/hr or lb.min, (volumetric flow* mass)). Volumetric flow is a poor measurement to use for turbo's output. Since "The indicated power or an internal combustion engine at a given speed is proportional to the MASS of air combined in the cylinder"(Ramos, J.I, p384, 1989), mass flow is the paramater that is directly related to torque. Flow is not what makes power, it is mass flow. With 2 turbos with each wastegate set @6psi, pressure will stay at 6psi at the manifold and mass flow will double since:

massflow_in = massflow_out

or

mass flow_1 + massflow_2 = Massflow_3

but ive been wrong before...

Shaun
MET Purdue University

393"/twin T70/full accessory/billet ITB intake/stock hood/alum. 3.5" exhaust

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post #13 of 24 Old 04-30-2003, 04:35 PM
 
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true, I was using boost to measure airflow instead of pressure, semantic error.
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post #14 of 24 Old 05-01-2003, 02:24 AM
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Thats what i was saying, about the 6psi thing. My point was, you cant set one wastegate for 6 psi and another for 6 and have it read 12 inside the car. And with the 109 trap? No offence to your buddys car, but thats not good for a boosted anything. And 22psi running through that turbo is fine. On a 2.l car. You have any idea how much pressure your throwing at that poor little turbo on the exhaust side.

Chris
99 Procharged Cobra sold
95 Cobra single turbo. [email protected] stock block.


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post #15 of 24 Old 05-01-2003, 02:35 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by lightweight
Thats what i was saying, about the 6psi thing. My point was, you cant set one wastegate for 6 psi and another for 6 and have it read 12 inside the car. And with the 109 trap? No offence to your buddys car, but thats not good for a boosted anything. And 22psi running through that turbo is fine. On a 2.l car. You have any idea how much pressure your throwing at that poor little turbo on the exhaust side.
You see many SVO's trapping 109 on there T3's that stang guys often use? You say this like I don't have a turbo eclipse trapping in the mid 120's or something.

Remember wastegates? Theres a given amount of pressure nessecary to run a given boost, anything after that pressure goes through the wastegate.

Neways, i still think a 4g63 will out flow half a 302 badly. ever see the exhaust ports on your 302? 1/3 the size, and half the valves. Stock to stock its not going to be able to flow more air

You seem to think 302 flow some Godawful amount of air, and its really just not true. 2.5 liters a side, but stil single valve, small port 2.5 liters

Chris Anderson ran [email protected]? on two eclipse T25's on a stock 302. A 14b is SIGNIFICANTLY bigger....275 cfm vs 405 cfm and a much large exhaust side.

Now overspinning a T25 happens all the time, but a 14b? Not gonna happen.
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post #16 of 24 Old 05-01-2003, 02:47 AM
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One thing, I never said that they flow a huge about of air. You go ahead and run those turbos and be slow. Just makes me look better.

And trapping mid-120's in your dsm.....

Chris
99 Procharged Cobra sold
95 Cobra single turbo. [email protected] stock block.


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post #17 of 24 Old 05-01-2003, 03:05 AM
 
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Ill run them, and I won't be slow. And they won't break. Your foolish. You don't even know how big they are in reality. If they can handle 18 psi on a dual cam 2 liter for 100k miles at 7000 rpm, half a 302 won't bean issue.

Why do you laugh, you have a faster daily driver? Doubtful, If so, cool, but I doubt you have my experiance with turbo cars.
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post #18 of 24 Old 05-01-2003, 03:19 AM
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Dont worry bout my experiance with turbo cars i've got pleanty. And a faster daily driver, well, if mine wont trap 120 in 2 weeks i'll be just a little disappointed.

And if you insist on using mitsu turbos why dont you use twin 20g's or at the least a good twin 16 setup.

Chris
99 Procharged Cobra sold
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post #19 of 24 Old 05-01-2003, 09:50 AM
 
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Twin GARRETT TB03 volvo turbos off a 86ish-89 740..
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post #20 of 24 Old 05-01-2003, 03:38 PM
 
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I like how he capitalized Garret like that means their bomb turbos.

Because it would be incredibly dumb to spend 1000 a pice on mitsu turbos.
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post #21 of 24 Old 05-09-2003, 11:23 PM
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Call up Garret and ask for two "Disco Potato" turbos (seriously).
That will get you headed in the right direction.

-Keith
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post #22 of 24 Old 05-10-2003, 02:04 AM
 
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thats not helpful or meanigful to a techinical discussion in any way What are they.
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post #23 of 24 Old 05-14-2003, 09:13 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by 88black
Call up Garret and ask for two "Disco Potato" turbos (seriously).
That will get you headed in the right direction.

-Keith
LOL I was actually considering going that route but at $1800 apiece I dunno. I really would like to see what other turbo's they've upgraded, though! Wonder what some of the other options are.
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post #24 of 24 Old 05-17-2003, 02:43 PM
 
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Originally posted by ItsStockOfficer
thats not helpful or meanigful to a techinical discussion in any way What are they.

Read this months issue (june 2003) of Sport Compact Car Magazine. They have a decent write up on the Disco Potato Turbo.
Even thought they're applying it to a Nissan 240sx, the article gives some good info about that turbo. But at $1800 just for one turbo, that can get expensive real quick. Also as a bonus that same issue has a large tech article about turbo matching.
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