Best heads for a turbo motor???? - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
 
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post #1 of 33 Old 03-15-2003, 02:49 AM Thread Starter
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Smile Best heads for a turbo motor????

I am going to start buying up some parts to get my setup together and I was curious what heads ya'll would suggest for a single turbo setup running in the range of 20-30psi at the track and alittle less 20 on the street.....Of course its going to be a low compression motor (8-8.5:1), but I am not sure on the cubes yet......Any suggestions or personal experience you might have will be appreciated......Thanks Derek


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post #2 of 33 Old 03-15-2003, 05:39 AM
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Trick Flow or AFR, Victor Jnr's..??
Remember boost is a restriction of flow, 20 Lp would be enough to split block,break transmission, traction.Let alone 30 Lp.
Some are making 500h.p easy with just 7/10 Lp boost..imo..


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post #3 of 33 Old 03-15-2003, 06:17 AM
 
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Re: Best heads for a turbo motor????

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Originally posted by chops44
I am going to start buying up some parts to get my setup together and I was curious what heads ya'll would suggest for a single turbo setup running in the range of 20-30psi at the track and alittle less 20 on the street.....Of course its going to be a low compression motor (8-8.5:1), but I am not sure on the cubes yet......Any suggestions or personal experience you might have will be appreciated......Thanks Derek
What are you building an all out race car if so great and good luck to you, but there is no way your street car is gonna last that long at all if you are gonna want to push that much boost
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post #4 of 33 Old 03-15-2003, 07:09 AM
 
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TEA has some fantastic heads for the money, given their numbers and CNC work.

Forget I said that, you might want to just call Dave Tooley yourself and ask him about his heads, and his CNC experience.

http://www.totalengineairflow.com/

IMO he does some great CNC and head work.
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post #5 of 33 Old 03-15-2003, 09:46 AM
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I'd say any Aluminum head will do. Remember you don't need huge heads and intake like you do with a supercharged motor. I've seen some BIG numbers with box stock Trickflows, Edlebrocks, AFR 165's(185's). The weight savings alone is worth the money.



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post #6 of 33 Old 03-15-2003, 05:12 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the suggestions guys..........I guess I should clairify that I have been around turbo cars my whole life and understand them quite well (mustangs and Buick GN)........I know that it doesn't take a big head on a turbo motor to make power, I was just curious to see what heads would be suggested........I had thought about going the canfield route or either the victor jr's.......As far as the afr's go, I am not up to date on their heads......I'm not ruling them out, I just don't know.......And as far as the amount of boost I am going to run (20-30), there will be no problem keeping the motor together......This is going to be a street/track car that in the end should run somewhere in the low 10's to high 9's........I am going to run the fast system, so as long as I can keep it detonation free, my motor should stay in one piece.......At work, I have acces to a 1020 flow bench, so I can work the heads if I need to......I am just wanting a good starting point if any........Thanks for the info guys and keep it coming........

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post #7 of 33 Old 03-15-2003, 05:17 PM
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I would go with the AFR's. Depending on what size turbo, run either the 185's or 205's, I wouldn't think you would need to run the 225's. I believe the AFR have a thicker deck than all of the rest of the heads, wich helps keep them from lifting under serious (20-30psi) boost.



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post #8 of 33 Old 03-15-2003, 05:46 PM
 
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You could also look into the TFS High Ports
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post #9 of 33 Old 03-15-2003, 05:47 PM Thread Starter
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Cool, thanks for the deck info on the afr's......Learn something new everyday.......I am for sure going turbonetics on the turbo......I am going to run the T series ......Thinking about the 72 but still undecided on exactly which one for sure......Do the eldlebrocks not have that thick of a deck??????? Thanks Derek

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post #10 of 33 Old 03-15-2003, 06:11 PM Thread Starter
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So some of you think I will have a problem "breaking the block in half".....Then explain how a Buick GN can run in excess of 20#'s all day long and last forever.......I have personal experience with these cars and know from experience.......I am not talking ****, I just don't understand why people feel the need to say a comment like that.......Thanks Derek


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post #11 of 33 Old 03-15-2003, 06:15 PM
 
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well you said you are looking at running mid to low 10's right. Then you also said you are gonna be running 20-30#;s of boost, does not make any sense there. To run mid to low 10's you only need like maybe I might be wrong 10-15#'s of boost
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post #12 of 33 Old 03-15-2003, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by chops44
So some of you think I will have a problem "breaking the block in half".....Then explain how a Buick GN can run in excess of 20#'s all day long and last forever.......I have personal experience with these cars and know from experience.......I am not talking ****, I just don't understand why people feel the need to say a comment like that.......Thanks Derek
b/c there is a HUGE difference in strength/design of a car that came turbo/blown vs that which was designed as a n/a 215hp car. A stock block or rotating assembly will usually grenade around 450-475rwhp after a while. Also, there is a HUGE difference in power/airflow on 20psi from a small 6 cylinder vs that of 300+ cubic inch v8. that's like comparing 20 psi in a bicycle tire to 20psi in an 18-wheeler tire - much more volume involved. Anyways, at 20 psi other than needing an aftermarket block such as a dart block, r-block, etc you're going to need a good crank, rods, pistons, etc as well as a complete fuel system. you're dreaming if you expect to bolt on a turbo making 20-30psi on a car with heads, cam, and intake but stock shortblock and stock type fuel system. you may want to do a lot more research before you start this project b/c a gn and mustang are nothing alike shortblock/strength wise. best of luck with whatever you decide though
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post #13 of 33 Old 03-15-2003, 07:08 PM
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It looks like you don't really know what the deal is with ford heads/blocks. As said earlier, you don't need 20-30lbs of boost to go low 10's, high 9's. Of course, boost is just a definition of backpressure, so the bigger the head, the less boost you need. If you want to go low 10's, you can do that with any aluminum head and around 15psi boost, and you might be able to keep it together in a stock 2 bolt thinwall block. Once you get beyond 550-600rwhp (with a turbo) you NEED a 4 bolt block. At 550 though, its still borderline on if it will hold or not, but keeping the rpm down helps a lot.

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post #14 of 33 Old 03-15-2003, 08:35 PM Thread Starter
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Well I figured that someone would would jump in and give an explanation about the differenc between compairing a gn and mustang and I always like to hear what people have to say......About me saying it would run a low 10 to high 9, I was just being on the safe side......Cause I know if I would have said it will run a low9 or high 8, then someone would have jumped in and prolly said "stop dreaming"....I am going to run the fast system like I stated among other things........Yes I am going the whole nine yards here, so I am not trying to cut corners......I know what this project will take and how serious it really is....But as far as the block goes, I am going to run a stock block with a girdle for now, with all the good internals......

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post #15 of 33 Old 03-15-2003, 09:26 PM
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Well, it won't stay together to push you even to low 9's let alone an 8. Mid 9's is as far as I have seen one go, and they usually don't stay together very long around there. Thats about 140 trap speeds, max. You may end up with a cracked block that takes out the rest of your motor though too.....the girdle might help you keep it in one piece after it splits though.

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post #16 of 33 Old 03-16-2003, 07:42 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by chops44
Well I figured that someone would would jump in and give an explanation about the differenc between compairing a gn and mustang and I always like to hear what people have to say......About me saying it would run a low 10 to high 9, I was just being on the safe side......Cause I know if I would have said it will run a low9 or high 8, then someone would have jumped in and prolly said "stop dreaming"....I am going to run the fast system like I stated among other things........Yes I am going the whole nine yards here, so I am not trying to cut corners......I know what this project will take and how serious it really is....But as far as the block goes, I am going to run a stock block with a girdle for now, with all the good internals......

What are smoking there is now way a stock block is gonna hold together with a low 9 or high second. You better off sticking with your GN and building that up.
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post #17 of 33 Old 03-16-2003, 08:48 AM
 
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Originally posted by chops44
Then explain how a Buick GN can run in excess of 20#'s all day long and last forever.......I have personal experience with these cars and know from experience.......I am not talking .....Thanks Derek
Then, Derek, you DO know the GN motor was alittle bit different to the N/A 3.8L motor right? GM just didn't slap on a turbo to the regular 'ol V6 and call it a GN.

The GN motor had a special process applied (rolled fillets) to the crankshaft to make sure the tremendous turbo torque didn't snap it in half. The heads are said to be the same as the ones in "mom and pops" Regal V6 though.

The Mustang 5.0L does have forged pistons (pre '93) which is fortunate for blown applications somewhat, but it does have a cast crank to contend with. Assuming no detonation, I bet a stock healthy 5.0L could safely take 600 fwhp........at least for a little bit.
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post #18 of 33 Old 03-16-2003, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mustang
TEA has some fantastic heads for the money, given their numbers and CNC work.

just call Dave Tooley
Dave ??? u mean Brian

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post #19 of 33 Old 03-16-2003, 10:40 AM Thread Starter
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well thanks guys.......I guess I should mention that I an not going to run the stock 5 liter.......I am going with some sort of a stroker............

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post #20 of 33 Old 03-16-2003, 12:19 PM
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Just a thought but if your going to be spending alot of $$$ on the motor why not look into a DART, R302, or even a sportsman bolck. I know the darts will last forever. Don't let people talk you out of acheiving your goals....




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post #21 of 33 Old 03-16-2003, 02:10 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by P.MUSSIN
Just a thought but if your going to be spending alot of $$$ on the motor why not look into a DART, R302, or even a sportsman bolck. I know the darts will last forever. Don't let people talk you out of acheiving your goals....




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post #22 of 33 Old 03-16-2003, 06:37 PM Thread Starter
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Yes I am going to drop some bucks in the car because its time for me to go fast.......I thought I would stay with the stock block (because I had been told that it would last) but after talking with you guys, I am having my doubts...I don't think it would really be worth it to spit out all my internals because I was too cheap not to do it right the first time......So how much would one of the better blocks set me back and what are the main differences between them.......Its amazing how threads always get off their origional title.......lol....Oh well, its all gonna help me in the end.....Thanks again guys

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post #23 of 33 Old 03-16-2003, 06:56 PM
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do a search on the A4, R302, and dart block. they're all pricey, but i think you can pick up a used A4 the cheapest. i THINK. not really sure. anywho.... if this is going to be an all out project, get one of the above mentioned blocks. from what i understand, a sportsman is a little better than a stock block, but if you're gonna buy a different block, you might as well get an r-block. get all forged internals as well. if you stick with a stock block running that much boost, you'll eventually split it in half and possibly break other things. from what i've read, some people have split blocks with less power than that magic '500' level whereas some are still going with more than that. you'll need a good tune and keep the boost down if you stick with the stock block. go to turbomustangs.com and read up over there as well. people have run high 10's with a stock short block.

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post #24 of 33 Old 03-16-2003, 09:34 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the info First5.0.....I'll check out that site and see what I can find.....

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You can either build a stout bottom end now or run a while with a low $$ stock block setup and upgrade later (like I'm doing). As far as boost goes that is just the level of resriction and you should be more concerned with hosepower. One motor with 12 -14psi might make more power than another with 20 psi depending on the heads, cam and intake. I know several guys in my area that ran 10's with about 500 rwhp with a stock shortblock, aluminum heads,(Twisted wedge, vic jr.) and prochargers before upgrading to a better r-block bottom end after a while. However if you have the $$ to do it now along with all the other stuff, go ahead.
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post #26 of 33 Old 03-19-2003, 11:49 AM
 
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If you are not cutting corners then why are you een considering a stock block? For a grand or so you can have a R302 block...slap all of your souped up internals in that thing and enjoy some reliability.

How stupid would you feel after spending 10+ grand on your car to have half of the f-ing thing explode the 2nd time you hit 6500rpm???? Whats the point in even spending anything on the stock block when you plan on making that much power???? girdle or not...it will blow up.

What do you have planned for the rest of the car? Cage, frame, transmission, rear end, suspension, cooling, ignition? I dont think a pair of subframe connectors and a T5Z is gonna do it either...
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post #27 of 33 Old 03-19-2003, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by chops44
Do the eldlebrocks not have that thick of a deck???????
afr's= 3/4" deck
edelbrock= 5/8" deck

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post #28 of 33 Old 03-19-2003, 10:00 PM
 
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Originally posted by chops44
well thanks guys.......I guess I should mention that I an not going to run the stock 5 liter.......I am going with some sort of a stroker............
That does not make it any stronger at all. It actually is taking some meat out of the block. Also boost does not equal HP. I had a buddy with a procharge dynoes at 515 RWHP could have lasted a long time on the street and every now and them at the strip.
But......
He loved to see he gauge hit 12 psi so it split pretty quick.
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post #29 of 33 Old 03-22-2003, 10:15 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by chops44
Yes I am going to drop some bucks in the car because its time for me to go fast.......I thought I would stay with the stock block (because I had been told that it would last) but after talking with you guys, I am having my doubts...I don't think it would really be worth it to spit out all my internals because I was too cheap not to do it right the first time......So how much would one of the better blocks set me back and what are the main differences between them.......Its amazing how threads always get off their origional title.......lol....Oh well, its all gonna help me in the end.....Thanks again guys
Just like everyone else said you need to loose that stock block. It will not last. A girdle will not help either, these blocks from the lifter valley down. Here is a picture of my friends motor (he was making around 500-550 rwhp):



PM me if you need any help, I can get you a good deal on a Dart block.

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post #30 of 33 Old 03-27-2003, 02:12 PM
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Originally posted by TireSmoke
If you are not cutting corners then why are you een considering a stock block? For a grand or so you can have a R302 block...slap all of your souped up internals in that thing and enjoy some reliability.
A Dart block will run $1950 (best I have seen) and then you will still need machine work (or at the least have everything checked out). A R302 block, last I checked was running about $1800 and needs more machine work than the darts. You may be able to find an old Boss block or a used A4 for $1000-1200. My experience is that machine work on a new A4/R302 block will run anywhere from 700-1000.....a far cry from a grand.

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post #31 of 33 Old 03-27-2003, 02:45 PM
 
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Originally posted by forced347
A Dart block will run $1950 (best I have seen) and then you will still need machine work (or at the least have everything checked out). A R302 block, last I checked was running about $1800 and needs more machine work than the darts. You may be able to find an old Boss block or a used A4 for $1000-1200. My experience is that machine work on a new A4/R302 block will run anywhere from 700-1000.....s fsr cry from a grand
I paid $1950 shipped for my Dart block, its fully machined just needs a final bore.

Patrick
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post #32 of 33 Old 03-27-2003, 02:52 PM
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Originally posted by pattymelt1285
I paid $1950 shipped for my Dart block, its fully machined just needs a final bore.

Patrick
That's what I said......isn't it???

Quote:
A Dart block will run $1950 (best I have seen) and then you will still need machine work (or at the least have everything checked out).

I would have EVERYTHING checked...just becasue they SAY it is fully machined and ready for assembly I wouldn't trust my internals to that. Get everything checked before assembly.
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post #33 of 33 Old 03-27-2003, 03:24 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by forced347
That's what I said......isn't it???




I would have EVERYTHING checked...just becasue they SAY it is fully machined and ready for assembly I wouldn't trust my internals to that. Get everything checked before assembly.
I know, I was just saying...geez. And I did have the block checked and everything was fine and dandy.

Patrick
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