Advance or retard stock cam with Incon TT? - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
 
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post #1 of 27 Old 03-05-2003, 04:12 PM Thread Starter
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Advance or retard stock cam with Incon TT?

I am ready to install my stock cam back into the engine now. I know people have retarded or advanced the stock cam with turbo motors, but I am not familiar, nor know which to do. Here is my combo:

-Incon 800tti
-TFS TW Stage 1 o-ringed heads
-1.6 Rockers with stock cam
-Holley intake
-5-speed
-36lb injectors, for now

Give me some advice on this.


1993 LX hatch
Incon 800TTi, AFR heads, Holley intake, stock cam
11.21 @ 124

480 whp, 520 wtq (10 psi)
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post #2 of 27 Old 03-05-2003, 05:14 PM
 
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Set timing at 6 deg.

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post #3 of 27 Old 03-05-2003, 05:32 PM Thread Starter
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I must clarify cam advance or retard with adjustable timing chain.
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post #4 of 27 Old 03-05-2003, 08:48 PM
 
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if you are degreeing the cam, just set it up regular 0 degree....if you have installed the cam and are ready to run with it, advance it 6 degrees.........hope that helps friend...wyominghotwheels
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post #5 of 27 Old 03-05-2003, 10:58 PM Thread Starter
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Sure about advancing it 6 degrees? I am getting a lot of responses to retard it 4 degrees elsewhere. Anybody else?

1993 LX hatch
Incon 800TTi, AFR heads, Holley intake, stock cam
11.21 @ 124

480 whp, 520 wtq (10 psi)
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post #6 of 27 Old 03-06-2003, 02:42 PM
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im not sure what wyominghotwheels is talking about...

But anyways, yea, retard it 4 degress. It will help turbo spool up, thats the general consensus on turbomustangs.com

Shaun

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post #7 of 27 Old 03-06-2003, 03:26 PM
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Don't advance it! Just retard it 2-4 degrees to move the powerband up just a hair, or just by an f cam.

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post #8 of 27 Old 03-06-2003, 07:27 PM
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Question

When you guy's are saying retard timing 6 degrees. Do you mean base timing to -6 or base timing at 10 degrees and retard it 6 degrees to 4 degrees base timing? Just wondering because I have a PMS and i'm about to yank it off and run it without it. My numbers are really low and I think it is because of the PMS and my tuning abilities with the unit. My car has forged 306, f-cam, rpm heads and intake with the cartech ss kit at 13psi. Look at my numbers in sig and let me know what you think. Thanks for any help. -Jeff

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post #9 of 27 Old 03-06-2003, 08:34 PM
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they are talking about cam timing, not ignition timing!

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post #10 of 27 Old 03-25-2003, 08:21 PM
 
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I have mine installed straight up.

I went back to a stock cam from a crane 2031 because the torque was insane and I could never hook at 3500-4500

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post #11 of 27 Old 03-29-2003, 10:56 AM
 
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Degree your cam i at 0 or straight-up. Retard the cam? Why?

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post #12 of 27 Old 03-30-2003, 01:52 PM
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mitch, retarding the cam effectively moves the power band up. if you were wanting more top end and less bottom end then retarding the cam would have a beneift. in a stock cam incon combo, you already have plenty of bottom end, retarding the cam would move the power peak up and allow more rpm, allowing the stock cam to have a broader power range

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post #13 of 27 Old 03-30-2003, 03:50 PM
 
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You're talking about WOT. What about the other (90%) of the time when you are not at WOT? Retarding the stock cam will not help make for a nice street driver. Unless we're talking about a strip only car? If you want a broader power band or more RPM, then use a different cam.

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post #14 of 27 Old 03-30-2003, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by MitchB
Retarding the stock cam will not help make for a nice street driver.
Really? Why exactly is that?
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post #15 of 27 Old 03-30-2003, 04:36 PM
 
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Quote:
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Really? Why exactly is that?
Exactly why? Because you will have to use more throttle to give the same power at lower engine speeds plus you won't gain enough on the top end to justify this.

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post #16 of 27 Old 03-31-2003, 09:33 PM
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lol .. mitch is makeing a opinion based on what he thinks.

you can retard the stofck cam 6 degrees and the car will easily be just as driveable every single say.

I have seen it doen and done it myself many times. with absolutley NO adverse afects on driveing
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post #17 of 27 Old 04-01-2003, 11:13 AM
 
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lol .. mitch is makeing a opinion based on what he thinks.

Now how do you know that? You know nothing about me: how long I've been involved in motorsports, my experience, the people I speak with and what I've done. Saying this is my opinion based on what I think presumes a lot.

you can retard the stofck cam 6 degrees and the car will easily be just as driveable every single say.

I have seen it doen and done it myself many times. with absolutley NO adverse afects on driveing


Everyone has a different opinion on what is tolerable. For those who are going to do mostly street driving, you do not want to run the stock cam retarded four or six degrees. Maybe you do.

you will have to use more throttle to give the same power at lower engine speeds plus you won't gain enough on the top end to justify this

This is absolutely true and is based on more than just opinion.
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post #18 of 27 Old 04-01-2003, 07:47 PM
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umm mitch im not talking tolarable.. it makes ZERO DIFFERANCE retarding the cam actualy makes for a LOWER possible idle and better driveability for a given cam especialy if its a wilder cam

itis NOT TRUE you will have to give more throttle it simply isnt... you will not in anyway need to give your car any more throttle then you usualy do when you are just driveing normaly.

maybe if you wer towing a heavy load you would notice the diferance but you would not notice it just driving normaly. .
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post #19 of 27 Old 04-04-2003, 08:30 PM
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MitchB, tell it like it is!

Do you believe that any of these guys have any proof to substantiate the benefits of advancing or retarding the cam?

I would love to hear from someone who has actually tried this.

Until then I'll poke along with my Crane 2031 straight up.


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89 GT conv., Incon 800 turbo
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post #20 of 27 Old 04-05-2003, 02:50 AM
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Dman344 uses a stock cam retarded 4 degrees, otherwise his car would run out of steam and not keep up with the rest of his setup. He went 6.60 @ 107mph with that and the stock shortblock manually shifting the tremec before the motor finally broke...anyways, it worked out good for him apparently (cool car too)
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post #21 of 27 Old 04-05-2003, 04:43 PM
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um hello i jsut said i have done it many times MANY TIMES..
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post #22 of 27 Old 04-05-2003, 06:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by georgeturbox2
MitchB, tell it like it is!

Do you believe that any of these guys have any proof to substantiate the benefits of advancing or retarding the cam?

I would love to hear from someone who has actually tried this.

Until then I'll poke along with my Crane 2031 straight up.
Wow, your still using a 2031, now I know you have a torque peak problem...
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post #23 of 27 Old 04-05-2003, 09:30 PM
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Bryon,

I have no idea what a "torque peak problem" is.

But, I do have some experience with vehicle dynamics involving a "traction-limit" problem.

So, exactly how much did you advance or retard your cam?

What did you learn from this?

In your opinion, were should I set my cam?


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post #24 of 27 Old 04-06-2003, 10:17 AM
 
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George, what is the primary use of your car?

Mitch
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post #25 of 27 Old 04-10-2003, 04:24 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by georgeturbox2
Bryon,

I have no idea what a "torque peak problem" is.

But, I do have some experience with vehicle dynamics involving a "traction-limit" problem.

So, exactly how much did you advance or retard your cam?

What did you learn from this?

In your opinion, were should I set my cam?

IMHO, although I never dynoed it, I think my car had a torque peak with about 100 ft-lbs of torque more than surrounding areas of my curve right at 3800-4000. This caused me to spin the tires in every gear except fifth right around there. It was due to the 2031 when I had it straight up, so I just called it my torque peak problem. I had my cam retarded 3 or 4 degrees with better results as it wasn't as peaky. I've now gone gone back to a stock cam to just stop worrying about the problem with my torque and a slight timing issue around the same area.
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post #26 of 27 Old 04-10-2003, 05:45 PM
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I'm kind of thinking through the WHY of advancing/retarding a cam here so bear with me. I'm far from an expert in this sort of thing, just throwing out ideas. First of all, comparing an NA and turbo rationale for advancing/retarding a cam are totally different IMO.


Anyway, the way I see it, you'd want to retard the cam as this will open the exhaust valve later. The piston is actually travelling towards BDC when the exhaust valve is opening, so by opening it later you are avoiding the exhaust gases being pulled on a by a vacuum and therefore killing velocity. Now, this also has the effect of leaving the the exhaust valve open longer AFTER top dead center...but this is actually not a problem considering that the intake charge is boosted, so the exhaust gasses will not be sucked into the cylinder due to the boosted intake charge rushing into the cylinder. The charge may actually help the exhaust velocity a little bit as it rushes out the exhaust valve as well, under pressure.

Hopefully that makes sense, would like somebody to either validate or shoot holes in my ideas (guesses ).
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post #27 of 27 Old 04-14-2003, 09:52 AM Thread Starter
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OK, guys. I got the motor running this weekend, finally. I started it up and it ran like crap. Found out 2 wires were loose on the distributor. I set the timing at 6 degrees and the car still ran like crap and would hardly stay running. I am running the stock cam and I retarded it 4 degrees on the timing chain. Now, this is the part I need some help with. I tried turning up the timing to 14-15 degrees and the car ran a lot better. The idle smoothed out to about 800 rpm. So my question is for the people who run a retarded stock cam. Do you have to advance the ignition timing to compensate for the retarded cam timing? Like I said, if I set the timing at 6-10 deg, it runs like crap. I did take out the spout connector. The rockers prob need some adjustment, but I wouldn't think a few loose rockers would make the car run so bad. I have not had the chance to take if for a spin yet. Still have to bleed the brakes.

I have gotten some replies on this issue elsewhere and some say that I am off a tooth on the distributor and that I DO have to compensate for the retarded cam with advancing the ignition.

1993 LX hatch
Incon 800TTi, AFR heads, Holley intake, stock cam
11.21 @ 124

480 whp, 520 wtq (10 psi)
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