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post #1 of 34 Old 09-28-2018, 09:50 PM Thread Starter
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Gt35R dump pipe size?

I'm about to get ready to fabricate my dump pipes for my 408. I'm using 2 X GT35R's which have a 3" outlet. I'm going to do everything I can to make the dumps out of 3" pipe, but it's so tight near the fire wall so am considering stepping down to 2.5".

How much effect will this have on my combo?

The driver's side will be very close to my brake booster and I'm worried it will give me problems...

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post #2 of 34 Old 09-29-2018, 12:55 AM
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My 331 has twin GT35's.. My Downtubes are 2.5" that expand to 3" pipes to the Mufflers which are 2.5" with Tailpipes.. It's a Dynomax Catback kit I got WAY back.. I didn't want to spend the money for a 3" kit and I wanted a stock look, so I reused what I had.. So yeah, 2.5" to 3" and back down to 2.5" I put V-Bands on everything. I put Flexpipes and some Bullet Mufflers into the Ultraflo's, so yes 4 Mufflers. It positively does not drone, but it's not super quiet either like you might think.

The Driverside is real tight by the Steering Shaft. I had to get a shorter bolt that connects the SS to the Steering Wheel because it would rub on the pipe.. It's a pain to remove that DT because you must take off the Steering Shaft to get it off because it's so tight by the Booster and the Valve Cover. Maybe yours will be different.

But, I think if you went 2.5" to 3" you would be just fine with the bigger motor.. You have an easy 1000hp.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4015/3...730a3ffa_h.jpg
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post #3 of 34 Old 09-29-2018, 01:00 AM Thread Starter
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Cheers mate! Appreciate your input. I was reading your build many many moons ago and plan to refer to it for the plumbing of the turbos.

What size outlets were on your turbos? Are yours 3" as well?

In my mind, if the turbo has a certain outlet size then it needs that size at minimum to prevent any unwanted back pressure..

Then again, it may be marginal and I wouldn't even notice...
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post #4 of 34 Old 09-29-2018, 01:02 AM Thread Starter
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Pic of drivers side near the booster. Some how need to sneek 2.5" or 3" pipe down there. That booster is a plastic one but I will be putting in a steel dual diaphragm one which is a little smaller
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post #5 of 34 Old 09-29-2018, 01:04 AM Thread Starter
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Passenger side has a little more room..
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post #6 of 34 Old 09-29-2018, 01:19 AM
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They are 2.5" out of the Turbos. If you look close at the first pic, they expand to 3" where the pipes connect.
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post #7 of 34 Old 09-29-2018, 01:27 AM Thread Starter
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But what is the outlet size on your turbos?
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post #8 of 34 Old 09-29-2018, 01:28 AM Thread Starter
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Mine are 3". By putting a 2.5" dump I'm creating a restriction immediately
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post #9 of 34 Old 09-29-2018, 10:33 AM
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Your Turbine Housing is a bit different from mine and looks like it expands from 2.5" to 3". Oddly enough, mine came with a bolt on flange that expands to 3" but for a V-Band connector.. Your Turbine Exducer Diameter is 62mm, same as mine so the wheels are the same. I don't have any problems making power with a 2.5" DT Pipe. I don't think there would be a problem for you either, but if you can fit a 3" that would be cool.


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Unless it's going to be a race car I say build it to fit your needs. It's a PITA fighting the little things when building or working on it so design it so it's comfortable to work on. Besides it's a turbo car if you want more power just turn up the boost..

ks



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post #11 of 34 Old 09-29-2018, 07:03 PM Thread Starter
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Your Turbine Housing is a bit different from mine and looks like it expands from 2.5" to 3". Oddly enough, mine came with a bolt on flange that expands to 3" but for a V-Band connector.. Your Turbine Exducer Diameter is 62mm, same as mine so the wheels are the same. I don't have any problems making power with a 2.5" DT Pipe. I don't think there would be a problem for you either, but if you can fit a 3" that would be cool.



Thanks Midnightlaundry, I will change out my booster for the smaller steel type then see how I go for space. At the moment I have 20mm gap from the plastic booster and a 3" pipe. The steel one might get me 30-40mm but even that might still get a little hot... Stepping down to 2.5 gives me an extra 11mm so 40-50mm clearance.

Sorry about all the metric figures. It's what we use down under πŸ‡¦πŸ‡ΊπŸ‡ΊπŸ‡Έ
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post #12 of 34 Old 09-29-2018, 07:05 PM Thread Starter
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Unless it's going to be a race car I say build it to fit your needs. It's a PITA fighting the little things when building or working on it so design it so it's comfortable to work on. Besides it's a turbo car if you want more power just turn up the boost..[IMG class=inlineimg]/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif[/IMG]

ks
Cheers Kevin. I agree, it's not hard to get caught up in trying to perfect a design for almost little benefits. Regardle of which way I go. It's going to be a PITA haha. These dump pipes will need to come off for jobs that require the rocker cover coming off, or even plugs and leads related tasks...

Yes, I should have tonnes of boost up my sleeves. Only planning on running low boost. It's a stock F4TE so it's the weakest link..
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post #13 of 34 Old 09-29-2018, 07:06 PM Thread Starter
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Midnightlaundry- Shortly I'll be placing my waste gates. Are yours externally gated? Have you got a pic, if so?
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post #14 of 34 Old 09-29-2018, 08:35 PM
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I have mini domes with 4psi springs.. I use Boost Control on the Computer to go up from there. There are tucked in and hard to see with the Motor in the Car. You can see them in this mockup pic. They have little turndown pipes the aren't installed in the pic but vent to air. The Car is basically open exhaust when they open up and is loud. It's like Jekyll and Hyde.. If you can, plumb the dumps back to the Down Tube so the car is quiet if you desire.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4128/3...84e489fd_o.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4134/3...33f7966d_b.jpg
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Cheers Kevin. I agree, it's not hard to get caught up in trying to perfect a design for almost little benefits. Regardle of which way I go. It's going to be a PITA haha. These dump pipes will need to come off for jobs that require the rocker cover coming off, or even plugs and leads related tasks...

Yes, I should have tonnes of boost up my sleeves. Only planning on running low boost. It's a stock F4TE so it's the weakest link..
I'd definitely go with 2.5" or maybe split the difference and fab up 2 3/4" if you're concerned about power but you will never notice the difference in power. Do yourself a favor and give yourself all the room you can get. I'm running 3" dp's into full length 2.5" exhaust and feeding into three mufflers plus through a 4R70, making over 900hp.

ks


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post #16 of 34 Old 09-30-2018, 04:49 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by midnightlaundry View Post
I have mini domes with 4psi springs.. I use Boost Control on the Computer to go up from there. There are tucked in and hard to see with the Motor in the Car. You can see them in this mockup pic. They have little turndown pipes the aren't installed in the pic but vent to air. The Car is basically open exhaust when they open up and is loud. It's like Jekyll and Hyde.. If you can, plumb the dumps back to the Down Tube so the car is quiet if you desire.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4128/3...84e489fd_o.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4134/3...33f7966d_b.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4153/3...a0d1e50a_o.jpg





Thanks heaps again for the pics mate! Very helpful!

I didn't know you could use a low lb spring and then a controller to fine tune. Might look into it. I may be using turbosmart 60mm gates as o intend to run low boost. Apparently you need a bigger gate for low boost.

Also I think I read you need to place the gate port at 45 from the main stream. Yours look about 90? Did you have any boost issues?
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post #17 of 34 Old 09-30-2018, 04:52 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Cheers Kevin. I agree, it's not hard to get caught up in trying to perfect a design for almost little benefits. Regardle of which way I go. It's going to be a PITA haha. These dump pipes will need to come off for jobs that require the rocker cover coming off, or even plugs and leads related tasks...

Yes, I should have tonnes of boost up my sleeves. Only planning on running low boost. It's a stock F4TE so it's the weakest link..
I'd definitely go with 2.5" or maybe split the difference and fab up 2 3/4" if you're concerned about power but you will never notice the difference in power. Do yourself a favor and give yourself all the room you can get. I'm running 3" dp's into full length 2.5" exhaust and feeding into three mufflers plus through a 4R70, making over 900hp.

ks
Thanks again for your help here!

I think you've won me over and I'm going to go the 2.5". I'll see how much smaller my steel booster is, and make the call!!

Wow your making good power. Ive been told I can make 4 figures too, but I'm worried about my block!

As for material... Should I go carbon steel dumps and get them ceramic coated? Was thinking stainless but I'm not sure if you can coat them, and then they will look just like CS if they are coated ..

Does one hold heat more than the other?
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Thanks again for your help here!

I think you've won me over and I'm going to go the 2.5". I'll see how much smaller my steel booster is, and make the call!!

Wow your making good power. Ive been told I can make 4 figures too, but I'm worried about my block!

As for material... Should I go carbon steel dumps and get them ceramic coated? Was thinking stainless but I'm not sure if you can coat them, and then they will look just like CS if they are coated ..

Does one hold heat more than the other?
My block is also my limitation (iron Cobra block) and I'm pushing it to the limits but it should be fine.

If you can afford SS I would go that route. It's a lot more $$ but if you can afford it then it will last longer especially the pipes pre-turbo. They won't ceramic coat the inside of the pipes pre-turbo in case it flakes off. I went mild steel on everything and ceramic coated inside and out. But something odd I noticed one day was that rust was showing on the inside of the pipes - more like rust bubbles that I could wipe off with my finger. Not sure how this can even happen and maybe it was from the pipes pre-turbo rusting, I dunno. SS was waaay out of my budget otherwise I would have gone that route.

Not sure about the heat retention, etc. I hear a lot on the forums but the way I look at it: HOT is HOT. Exhaust can get 900* so unless the pipes can stay several hundred degrees cooler then it doesn't matter to me. If you need insulation then get the wraps and wrap the pipes. You will still want to ceramic coat the outsides before putting on the wraps otherwise the wraps can hold moister and rust the mild steel pipes from the outside.

Call some ceramic coating companies and see if they have an issue with coating SS.

Here's my Bling:



ks


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Thanks heaps again for the pics mate! Very helpful!

I didn't know you could use a low lb spring and then a controller to fine tune. Might look into it. I may be using turbosmart 60mm gates as o intend to run low boost. Apparently you need a bigger gate for low boost.

Also I think I read you need to place the gate port at 45 from the main stream. Yours look about 90? Did you have any boost issues?
No boost issues... I have the car setup for boost by gear. 1st and 2nd are almost useless with street tires on the street. I can blow the tires off in 2nd by just putting the pedal down on spring with 4 psi. So I only run spring pressure in 1st and 2nd because that's as low as I can go without it being a complete burnout fest.. 3rd gear I can bring in more boost.

Check out Nelson for some more ideas.


Check out the Wastegate setup on this one. They have the dumps plumbed to the Down Tube..

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post #20 of 34 Old 10-01-2018, 06:01 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks again for your help here!

I think you've won me over and I'm going to go the 2.5". I'll see how much smaller my steel booster is, and make the call!!

Wow your making good power. Ive been told I can make 4 figures too, but I'm worried about my block!

As for material... Should I go carbon steel dumps and get them ceramic coated? Was thinking stainless but I'm not sure if you can coat them, and then they will look just like CS if they are coated ..

Does one hold heat more than the other?
My block is also my limitation (iron Cobra block) and I'm pushing it to the limits but it should be fine.

If you can afford SS I would go that route. It's a lot more $$ but if you can afford it then it will last longer especially the pipes pre-turbo. They won't ceramic coat the inside of the pipes pre-turbo in case it flakes off. I went mild steel on everything and ceramic coated inside and out. But something odd I noticed one day was that rust was showing on the inside of the pipes - more like rust bubbles that I could wipe off with my finger. Not sure how this can even happen and maybe it was from the pipes pre-turbo rusting, I dunno. SS was waaay out of my budget otherwise I would have gone that route.

Not sure about the heat retention, etc. I hear a lot on the forums but the way I look at it: HOT is HOT. Exhaust can get 900* so unless the pipes can stay several hundred degrees cooler then it doesn't matter to me. If you need insulation then get the wraps and wrap the pipes. You will still want to ceramic coat the outsides before putting on the wraps otherwise the wraps can hold moister and rust the mild steel pipes from the outside.

Call some ceramic coating companies and see if they have an issue with coating SS.

Here's my Bling:



ks
Oh your bling looks on point!

I will definitely be calling up a coating place and asking about SS vs CS.

I'm also not really a fan of the heat wrapping, it can look tacky sometimes. Especially when you've taken so many extra steps to make the engine bay look clean and tidy.

My pre turbo is already fabbed from a mix of SS and CS. I bought a cheap set of mustang turbo manifolds and modified them to suit.
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post #21 of 34 Old 10-01-2018, 06:19 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks heaps again for the pics mate! Very helpful!

I didn't know you could use a low lb spring and then a controller to fine tune. Might look into it. I may be using turbosmart 60mm gates as o intend to run low boost. Apparently you need a bigger gate for low boost.

Also I think I read you need to place the gate port at 45 from the main stream. Yours look about 90? Did you have any boost issues?
No boost issues... I have the car setup for boost by gear. 1st and 2nd are almost useless with street tires on the street. I can blow the tires off in 2nd by just putting the pedal down on spring with 4 psi. So I only run spring pressure in 1st and 2nd because that's as low as I can go without it being a complete burnout fest.. 3rd gear I can bring in more boost.

Check out Nelson for some more ideas.


Check out the Wastegate setup on this one. They have the dumps plumbed to the Down Tube..


Wow that first one didn't even look like a Windsor!!

And that BBC is from Adelaide, Australia! Just down the road.

So you highly recommend plumbing back into the dump? I was going to make it so I can blank and vent to atmosphere for the track... What's it sound like??

Also those mirror turbos are what you want for a twin setup. It never crossed my mind until I was making my manifolds and I got to the other side and said "what do I do here?". I ended up just rotating one so they are not perfectly mirrored.

How does your staged boost work with a 4lb spring? I mean how does that set the lower boost level? What keeps it closed above 4lb?
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post #22 of 34 Old 10-01-2018, 01:43 PM
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It would be way easier to dump to air. It's loud like the car comes alive.

Without any Boost Control, the amount of Boost you can make is determined by the Spring in your Wastegate. With BC, a Soloenoid or other device will apply air pressure to the dome of the WG thereby increasing the pressure inside the Gate to keep the Valve closed as Boost goes up.

Here's a cool link for you.
- Boost solenoids
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post #23 of 34 Old 10-16-2018, 03:26 AM Thread Starter
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It would be way easier to dump to air. It's loud like the car comes alive.

Without any Boost Control, the amount of Boost you can make is determined by the Spring in your Wastegate. With BC, a Soloenoid or other device will apply air pressure to the dome of the WG thereby increasing the pressure inside the Gate to keep the Valve closed as Boost goes up.

Here's a cool link for you.
- Boost solenoids
Ah this is interesting. I'm def going to look into the staged boost.

Is it possible with a manual trans? Somehow you need to tell the ecu what gear you are in..

I also spoke to a ceramic coating place today. He said stainless steel holds heat liver and therefore its more important to have ceramic coated. Carbon steel can also be coated. I will most likely fabricate them from stainless 2.5" pipe.

Thanks everyone for your help.
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I have a 5-speed. The computer knows what gear you're in. You enter details like gear ratios, tire size, rear gear and the computer can figure it out from there. I log Gear and MPH when I do test hits.

On this log I have the cursor at about 77mph where I started t spin the tires in 3rd gear.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1931/4...0bb49f9e_o.png
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post #25 of 34 Old 10-18-2018, 09:32 PM
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I'd be real careful using Turbosmart wastegates or any wastegate with a small ratio of diaphragm to valve ratio. The ratio of diaphragm size to waste valve size has a lot to do with the gate's ability to stay closed as exhaust pressure increases.

I put a Turbosmart 60mm gate on my single turbo system and had very poor control. The hotside pressure would push it right open. It was a real pretty valve but had too little diaphragm size for the valve size. It had almost no size ratio between the dome diaphragm and valve, and that makes control stability poor.

I made an adapter to bolt my old RG-45 Turbonetics gate back on and control immediately was and still remains perfect. This is because the diaphragm to valve diameter ratio is way larger in the 45. The RG-45 will sit right on dialed pressure all down track. If I dial a certain target with dome CO2, boost goes right there and stays.


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post #26 of 34 Old 10-19-2018, 07:29 AM Thread Starter
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I'd be real careful using Turbosmart wastegates or any wastegate with a small ratio of diaphragm to valve ratio. The ratio of diaphragm size to waste valve size has a lot to do with the gate's ability to stay closed as exhaust pressure increases.

I put a Turbosmart 60mm gate on my single turbo system and had very poor control. The hotside pressure would push it right open. It was a real pretty valve but had too little diaphragm size for the valve size. It had almost no size ratio between the dome diaphragm and valve, and that makes control stability poor.

I made an adapter to bolt my old RG-45 Turbonetics gate back on and control immediately was and still remains perfect. This is because the diaphragm to valve diameter ratio is way larger in the 45. The RG-45 will sit right on dialed pressure all down track. If I dial a certain target with dome CO2, boost goes right there and stays.

Tom I've never heard of the diaphragm size being mentioned. Only the gate sizes 45mm, 60mm etc..

And from those sizes I heard it's better to use a bigger gate for low boost and visa versa?

I was planning on using 2* 60mm Turbo smarts bit now you've got me thinking...
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post #27 of 34 Old 10-30-2018, 06:39 PM
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My block is also my limitation (iron Cobra block) and I'm pushing it to the limits but it should be fine.

If you can afford SS I would go that route. It's a lot more $$ but if you can afford it then it will last longer especially the pipes pre-turbo. They won't ceramic coat the inside of the pipes pre-turbo in case it flakes off. I went mild steel on everything and ceramic coated inside and out. But something odd I noticed one day was that rust was showing on the inside of the pipes - more like rust bubbles that I could wipe off with my finger. Not sure how this can even happen and maybe it was from the pipes pre-turbo rusting, I dunno. SS was waaay out of my budget otherwise I would have gone that route.

Not sure about the heat retention, etc. I hear a lot on the forums but the way I look at it: HOT is HOT. Exhaust can get 900* so unless the pipes can stay several hundred degrees cooler then it doesn't matter to me. If you need insulation then get the wraps and wrap the pipes. You will still want to ceramic coat the outsides before putting on the wraps otherwise the wraps can hold moister and rust the mild steel pipes from the outside.

Call some ceramic coating companies and see if they have an issue with coating SS.

Here's my Bling:



ks
hey guys, Im doing a twin turbo set up for my 68 currently and am really liking seeing these pics. Kevin do you have any of your headers on the car? i have been planning on putting my turbos in a similar location as you guys but maybe a little farther forward due to my cage. mine are oiless and i would like to put them low rear but thats probably too tight.

2.5 dumb seems to be the ideal size here for a few reasons. ease of fit, sufficient power, cost savings..

what are your guys primary tubing size for the headers?
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post #28 of 34 Old 10-30-2018, 09:45 PM
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hey guys, Im doing a twin turbo set up for my 68 currently and am really liking seeing these pics. Kevin do you have any of your headers on the car? i have been planning on putting my turbos in a similar location as you guys but maybe a little farther forward due to my cage. mine are oiless and i would like to put them low rear but thats probably too tight.

2.5 dumb seems to be the ideal size here for a few reasons. ease of fit, sufficient power, cost savings..

what are your guys primary tubing size for the headers?
Yea, the cars been running for a while now.
Our cars are very different but you can see some build pics here:

Project BALROG

or do a search in the turbo section where I have some threads.

My primaries are 1.5".

ks


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post #29 of 34 Old 10-30-2018, 10:52 PM
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interesting build, very cool stuff there! any reason you chose to face them the way you did? 1.5 is enough for 900hp huh?... that would be nice for the extra room to get at bolts as well
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post #30 of 34 Old 10-31-2018, 12:22 AM
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interesting build, very cool stuff there! any reason you chose to face them the way you did? 1.5 is enough for 900hp huh?... that would be nice for the extra room to get at bolts as well
I wanted to keep all the hot side as short as possible for quick spool, to keep the turbos up high for oil drainage plus I like the look when the hood is opened.

Yea, 1.5" is plenty for 1000+ if the RPM's are low. Mine made over 900hp at 6200 (through 2.5" exhaust, 3 mufflers and through the auto) and if I rev'ed it higher it would make more. I'm guessing it would be around 930-940 at 6500RPM but this is a guess. If I ran open exhaust it'd be well over 1000hp.

It uses custom turbos and custom cams all spec'd to work with mufflers and low rpm.

ks


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Kevin Slaby
2002 GT 2V 902hp/820tq through the muffs.
http://baselinesuspensions.com/Projects/balrog.htm
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post #31 of 34 Old 10-31-2018, 03:16 PM
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I wanted to keep all the hot side as short as possible for quick spool, to keep the turbos up high for oil drainage plus I like the look when the hood is opened.

Yea, 1.5" is plenty for 1000+ if the RPM's are low. Mine made over 900hp at 6200 (through 2.5" exhaust, 3 mufflers and through the auto) and if I rev'ed it higher it would make more. I'm guessing it would be around 930-940 at 6500RPM but this is a guess. If I ran open exhaust it'd be well over 1000hp.

It uses custom turbos and custom cams all spec'd to work with mufflers and low rpm.

ks
thanks for the info, obviously our engines will be different but some of this still applies to what i am doing. a 363 push rod engine wont be revving super high either (woody is dealing with the cam knowing my goals). i have options open as i dont have oil drains to worry about, but i like the symmetrical look as well.
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post #32 of 34 Old 01-01-2019, 02:35 AM Thread Starter
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I managed to go 3" guys. Want the thing to spool quick as it's a stock block... Fingers crossed
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post #33 of 34 Old 01-01-2019, 02:36 AM Thread Starter
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####ty app won't let me upload correctly
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post #34 of 34 Old 01-26-2019, 02:11 PM
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I run 3” downpipes on my S366’s didn’t bother to read everything before this reply but I ended going with a hydroboost, very easy to install and plumb, if you want additional clearance for piece of mind you may want to look into it, guy on eBay sells them setup for foxbody and if you re-weld the pedal adaptor from the fox booster to the new hydroboost it works perfect.
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