Can timing retard really be taken care of w/a chip or twEECer? - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
 
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post #1 of 17 Old 02-06-2003, 11:07 PM Thread Starter
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Can timing retard really be taken care of w/a chip or twEECer?

I've been thinking about this lately and want some actual feedback from turbo users...how are you dealing w/timing retard? I've talked to a few shops here in TX where I plan on getting my chip burned (or getting a dyno tune w/a twEECer) and 2 of them have said they can take care of timing retard w/their dyno tune (via the chip or twEECer)...so is an MSD-BTM really necessary? I have one but the last few days it seems like it would be unecessary as long as the timing is addressed in the dyno tune...what do y'all think?


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post #2 of 17 Old 02-07-2003, 11:55 AM
 
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Ye syou can take care of it that way, and in my opinion, thats the only way to go.

You do not want a linear retard ona turbo engine. It just doesn't make sense. You want a new timing/load/rpm map.


Leave the BTM for the supercharger people. (And not the positive displacement ones either)

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post #3 of 17 Old 02-07-2003, 02:35 PM Thread Starter
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Please explain when you say linear...and why would a BTM work differently on a SC then on a turbo, I know you see boost at different times, but it's the boost itself that gives the signal to the BTM on when to retard the timing correct? So whether it's 6#'s at 3500 or 6#'s at 5500, wouldn't you still want to retard it 1* (just throwing out an example) per #, regardless of where you see it? Thanks man.

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post #4 of 17 Old 02-07-2003, 07:02 PM
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A chip can adjust timing based on several parameters like throttle position, load, WOT, part throttle etc. It's much more flexible. A BTM pulls timing based soley on boost. With KB blowers I can make from zero to full boost from 2,000 rpm to redline and it can happen under differing loads, throttle positions etc. I don't need the same timing retard at part throttle as I do under WOT. While a BLM will get the job done IMO it just doesn't have the finess that is needed to make a car pleasant to drive under all conditions. The centrifugal can use a BTM with less penalty because they only need to tune for boost in a 1,500-2,000 rpm range and most of the time it is for WOT conditions.

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post #5 of 17 Old 02-07-2003, 07:33 PM Thread Starter
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Oh ok, right on...thanks for the explanation. I was thinking it had something to do w/load and/or throttle position, but I'm still a little fuzzy on everything concerning boost...my TTI kit is my 1st boost type power adder. Thanks man.

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post #6 of 17 Old 02-10-2003, 01:37 AM
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If your handy with the electronics you can make your own device with a HC11 Mircocontroller!
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post #7 of 17 Old 02-11-2003, 02:13 PM
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Now lets throw a curve in here..

I've got a Lightning with stock SD setup, and an EEC-Tuner..

I guess there's going to be alot of trial and error, and sleeping with the wide-band O2 sensor until I get the load/timing/fuel maps dialed out..

But it should still be possible with a SD EEC-4, and a EEC-Tuner...Just alot of homework I guess...
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post #8 of 17 Old 02-24-2003, 08:19 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by SN95LEEN
Oh ok, right on...thanks for the explanation. I was thinking it had something to do w/load and/or throttle position, but I'm still a little fuzzy on everything concerning boost...my TTI kit is my 1st boost type power adder. Thanks man.
Sorry for not explaining in enough detail, but Michael hit on it good. You just can't use a BTM for anything useful on a car that has full boost from 2500 to redline.

For instance, on my tt car, I pull 8 degrees out at 4K and put it all back in by 6k to prevent detonation at my torque peak.
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post #9 of 17 Old 02-24-2003, 02:23 PM
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I dont understand why you say you can't use a BTM with a turbo car. I use a BTM on my twinturbo set-up and it works great. I see full boost by 3,500 rpm (14psi), and use the BTM when running pump gas, turn it to "0" when the good stuff is in the tank.



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post #10 of 17 Old 02-24-2003, 03:32 PM Thread Starter
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Well I decided to keep it. The turbo project is still on hold, but when it's done I'm going to get a chip to tune it w/and to take care of timing issues...the MSD-6/BTM will be used for ignition purposes as well as a safetly blanket should I ever need it...thanks for the replies though guys.


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post #11 of 17 Old 02-27-2003, 11:35 AM
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I find that the "linear" boost retard doesn't solve the problem of detonation on my Incon at lower rpm (3000). Any retard I dial-in reduces the timing across the entire range, rather than selectively when needed at peak torque. In effect, it's a power reducer and a compromise to what is really needed -- an altered mid-range timing map. The stock EEC does not know how to compensate for boost.

Whether or not this is unique to my combination is debatable. I agree with Brian Renegar that the best way to prevent detonation, regardless of boost pressure or fuel quality, is to reduce midrange timing. I've attached a link to a map that works for him that he created using the Tweecer.

You CAN use a retard with a turbo, but in my case it is not the best solution.

http://www.twinturbostang.com/misc/sparkcurve.jpg


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post #12 of 17 Old 02-27-2003, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by georgeturbox2
I find that the "linear" boost retard doesn't solve the problem of detonation on my Incon at lower rpm (3000). Any retard I dial-in reduces the timing across the entire range, rather than selectively when needed at peak torque. In effect, it's a power reducer and a compromise to what is really needed -- an altered mid-range timing map. The stock EEC does not know how to compensate for boost.

Whether or not this is unique to my combination is debatable. I agree with Brian Renegar that the best way to prevent detonation, regardless of boost pressure or fuel quality, is to reduce midrange timing. I've attached a link to a map that works for him that he created using the Tweecer.

You CAN use a retard with a turbo, but in my case it is not the best solution.

http://www.twinturbostang.com/misc/sparkcurve.jpg

I agree with this theory 100%, but one thing...Ok, is it just me or does the modified timing curve have more timing in it? Please explain that to me, maby my brain is fried from that exam i just took...

Also, what combo does Brian suggest this for? Incons? aluminm heads? how much boost?

Thanks George,
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post #13 of 17 Old 02-27-2003, 02:28 PM
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ok, looked at it again, this time with my eyes open, it pulls lots of timing between 4500 and 5500. I was thinking that it should be pulled at about 3500-3800, since i was under the impression that was when most incon guys see peak torque.

please fill me in

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post #14 of 17 Old 02-27-2003, 04:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by P.MUSSIN
I dont understand why you say you can't use a BTM with a turbo car. I use a BTM on my twinturbo set-up and it works great. I see full boost by 3,500 rpm (14psi), and use the BTM when running pump gas, turn it to "0" when the good stuff is in the tank.



Jeremy
Can you use it? Yes.

But as stated above, your not extracting every bit of power you likely could. You could be tossing a easy 20-30 hp.
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post #15 of 17 Old 02-27-2003, 05:02 PM
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O.K. but when I turn it to "0" I shouldn't be losing any power right? When I take it to the track I always put some race gas in so I don't use the BTM, I do use it on the street though. I have a custom chip burned that gives me 16deg. total on pump gas and 23deg on race gas (flip chip). I usually only have the BTM set at 1/2 or 3/4 on the street.



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post #16 of 17 Old 02-28-2003, 03:05 PM
 
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Well, if your tuned so that turning it to zero causes no detonation, thats good, but your still losing power. With a stock EEC, and a turbo setup, you need to pull more timing at the torque peak than anywhere else. So if your set for the worst possible timing situation (wot at your torque peak) to not ping, then your not optimized elsewhere. Thats my only point. And it holds if your on race gas, then the threshold of pinging is just higher across the whole range.

If you have a custom chip, you may not have a problem since maybe they messed with your timing curves. If you got a chip with some dyno tune time to optimize your curve, you wouldn't need the BTM at all. Tell them to turn down the timing on your street setting and you would always leave the BTM to 0.

I wouldn't bother changing your setup that you have now, but if I were starting from scratch, I wouldn't go with a BTM, thats all.
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post #17 of 17 Old 02-28-2003, 06:26 PM
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Makes sense Byron, I just like to use it as a seftey feature. My chip pulls timming around 3,000 and puts some back in around 4,200. I'm not sure I really need the BTM really depends on the quality of gas I get, It seems to always change from fill up to fill up. But when I go to the track I put some race gas in turn it to"0" flip the switch on my chip.



Jeremy

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