Swap Chinese head vs Fox Lake motor - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
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post #1 of 9 Old 09-25-2016, 10:47 PM Thread Starter
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Swap Chinese head vs Fox Lake motor

I bent a valve some time ago and slapped a ported Chinese head engine (Pro Comp heads) into my car. From the 205 CNC, the car picked up about .2 seconds and a few MPH at the same boost. LOL

I just swapped a Fox Lake head motor in using the same turbo. I bought it used just to see how it would work and have a spare engine. Callies Magnum Crank, shaft rockers, and all that stuff.

My car lost 10 MPH and .6 seconds in the 1/8th mile with that engine. WTF?

Now in fairness I was running the China head motor at 25-26 lbs instead of 20. I also was running 22-24 degrees timing instead of 19 degrees. But I'm scared to bump the new motor up in timing or boost because it is 10:1 or more and has the wrong alloy pistons.

But seriously, a loss of 10 MPH in the 1/8th?? I gotta get to a dyno now, but I don't see how I am going to pick up 10 MPH and around 1/2 second in the 1/8th from playing with boost and timing.

Maybe they have poor choice of a solid roller cam. I have no clue what the specs are, but it looks like pretty good lift.

Anyway, this was an interesting season. Someone did a good job porting the Chinese heads and they are still good after 100 passes or more. All I have to do is replace the piston oil rings and I can get this Callies crank Fox Lake headed dog back out of my car.

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89 LX. 363, single turbo, Super Vic EFI, TFS high port heads by TEA, solid roller, glide. Holley HP EFI. (exact combo varies)
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post #2 of 9 Old 09-26-2016, 03:05 PM
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You forgot to tell the engine the heads were cast in China.

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post #3 of 9 Old 09-26-2016, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadFox View Post
You forgot to tell the engine the heads were cast in China.
Sounds like the China parts weren't calibrated correctly to the USA parts so they aren't communicating correctly to each other. You can calibrate them easy enough using Tuned on Phonics but you need a special laptop and software which requires 220v to operate the laptop. Check ebay for the tuning software you can usually find it here: eBay????_?????????????????_eBay??

ks
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post #4 of 9 Old 10-04-2016, 10:47 PM
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I just saw this - don't venture into the turbo section often. But bench racing math is always fun. I took some WAGs, but let's see how close we come.

I made the following assumptions - the Chinese motor went 5.9's at 116 mph with a race weight of 3,100lbs. That's 676 rwhp according to Wallace. The Fox Lake motore went 6.5 @ 106 mph, also at 3100 lbs. That's 517 rwhp. Let's say that's 160 rwhp difference or roughly 210 flywheel hp.

The Chinese motor was running 7 lbs more boost. 1 psi on my motor is worth about 17 fwhp. Your turbo motor's bound to be more efficient than my PD setup, but the boost is getting up there. Let's give you an average of 20 hp per psi. That's 7 x 20 or 140 fwhp. The Chinese motor is also running 5 degrees more timing. Let's give you 8 rwhp or 11 fwhp per degree - that's 55 hp, or 195 hp that you're down.

The Fox Lake motor's still down by 15 hp, but...

Now the Fox Lake motor has higher static compression. Let's give the Fox 25 hp for the increased compression.

That means there's 40 fwhp unaccounted for. Shall we call those magical Chinese HP, or Chinese/Ford kung fu?

The acronym for that being obviously, CFKU, or removing hard consonants for no apparent reason, CFU.

There you have it, ricer math PROVING that ricer math is 40 hp better than non ricer math; therefore the ricer motor is 40 hp superior to the non ricer motor. CFU.

I don't know what any of this means. Somehow we took a wrong turn and here we are.

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'84 LTD LX - 9.83 at 140.09. Whippled 365 SBF with a glide and 3.08 gears. Driven to and from the track 60 miles without even changing tire pressure.
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post #5 of 9 Old 10-05-2016, 10:14 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexLTDLX View Post
I just saw this - don't venture into the turbo section often. But bench racing math is always fun. I took some WAGs, but let's see how close we come.

I made the following assumptions - the Chinese motor went 5.9's at 116 mph with a race weight of 3,100lbs. That's 676 rwhp according to Wallace. The Fox Lake motore went 6.5 @ 106 mph, also at 3100 lbs. That's 517 rwhp. Let's say that's 160 rwhp difference or roughly 210 flywheel hp.
The Chinese head motor ran 5.15-5.25 at 133-134 in a 3200 lb car through dual 3" Borola proXS mufflers exit at the back axle. That was with 23 degree timing and 24-26 psi boost. It went 5.05 at 136 one time when I accidentally closed the WG all through the pass, but I don't want to do that again. It left at over 20 psi and pegged my MAP at 30.

At 16 degrees and 18 psi, the Fox lake head motor went 5.80 at 122.

I took it to the dyno and stopped at 23-24 degrees advance. It might have taken more.

On the dyno the FL motor takes a full second longer to make 20 psi boost off a fast idle (20 MPH roller speed in high gear). Same turbo, same hotside, same everything except the long block stuff.

The Fox Lake head motor then ran around 5.4 at 133 in the same car with the same turbo, but the 60's went from 1.15 to a tad over 1.3. I think this is the same reason it reads low on the dyno, it doesn't spool well. I think it is either something with the cam or maybe because a previous owner milled the heads a lot and used a thick gasket which screws up quench. Maybe a combo of cam and chamber. Could be as simple as the cam retarded too far, or as complex as wrong cam and poor quench from the thick gaskets.

I can try increasing my trans brake RPM. Right now it is at 4900 and the converter gets tight at 6400 when boost is at 24-26 psi. I'm only launching at 15-16 psi and clamping the WG shut will not build more boost with this engine like it did with the other one.

I'm also thinking of going back to the dyno and running the timing up more and see if it shortens the spool time. I can't think of many more ways to speed up spooling without hurting top end. I have a 1.25 AR housing, but the other engine spooled it fine. No leaks at all anywhere. It would probably beat the other one if it would build the same boost at the same spool time.

I'm also installing plumbing to measure manifold pressure at the turbo. I have no idea what it is.


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89 LX. 363, single turbo, Super Vic EFI, TFS high port heads by TEA, solid roller, glide. Holley HP EFI. (exact combo varies)
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post #6 of 9 Old 10-05-2016, 10:52 PM
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Looks like I shorted you about 200 hp with my WAGs. I wonder if the Chinese motor still comes out ahead (long day today, don't feel like doing to math). I do have a hard time believing quench could be that significant; probably mostly cam. But I'm only guessing.

Are you still running that small frozen boost cooler? What kind of IATs are you seeing? How about swapping the cam from the chinese motor into the fox lake one?

AlexLTDLX

'84 LTD LX - 9.83 at 140.09. Whippled 365 SBF with a glide and 3.08 gears. Driven to and from the track 60 miles without even changing tire pressure.
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post #7 of 9 Old 10-05-2016, 11:10 PM
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From my experience with two different cams I think the cams would be the issue I would look at. Send them to Bullet cams and have them measure them then there's no need to guess.

My first set of 2V turbo cams made [email protected] This new set of turbo cams makes [email protected] 18psi, so far.


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post #8 of 9 Old 10-06-2016, 10:32 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexLTDLX View Post
Looks like I shorted you about 200 hp with my WAGs. I wonder if the Chinese motor still comes out ahead (long day today, don't feel like doing to math). I do have a hard time believing quench could be that significant; probably mostly cam. But I'm only guessing.

Are you still running that small frozen boost cooler? What kind of IATs are you seeing? How about swapping the cam from the chinese motor into the fox lake one?
I still run that cooler. With 100 F start I see about 140F at the track end, but that is mostly because my water pump is too small. It actually reasonably tracks calculations by flow rate and BTU.

I'm not sure if quench is that significant. Who knows? But it generally is not a good idea to have a significant amount of fuel/air volume in a long wide line away from the plug. I wouldn't think it helps to have needless wasted fuel and air out there where it lights off so much later.

It probably is the cam. This is the problem buying used stuff with secret parts. I'd have to put a dial indicator on the cam and a degree wheel on the front and see what it is and how it is installed.

Whatever is going on, it sure can't spool a turbo very well.


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89 LX. 363, single turbo, Super Vic EFI, TFS high port heads by TEA, solid roller, glide. Holley HP EFI. (exact combo varies)
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post #9 of 9 Old 10-06-2016, 10:49 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by KEVIN$ View Post
From my experience with two different cams I think the cams would be the issue I would look at. Send them to Bullet cams and have them measure them then there's no need to guess.

My first set of 2V turbo cams made [email protected] This new set of turbo cams makes [email protected] 18psi, so far.


ks
I bought this on a lark as a temporary motor to finish the year out so I could through my original motor and refresh it. Turns out the only things actually wrong with my old engine are the oil rings and one intake seat. I'm having a head service change out all the intake seats to better seats, and I'm replacing the exhaust valves just because they have so much time and stress on them.

Bearings and everything else (even rings) look brand new.

This new motor has the potential to be a good engine. It is a Boss block 363 with Callies Magnum crank. It just probably needs better pistons (the only thing wrong is they used a street alloy piston) and the stupid helicoils removed from the head intake manifold holes and fixed right. Of course I can get brand new ported TFS high ports for less than it would take to fix these milled heads and just move the shaft rockers and stuff over. For about $3000 I could have a really good motor with new pistons, cam, and heads. I'd just like to figure out why it spools so slow.

If I clamp the wastegate shut on the original motor I can leave at 20 psi or more. Clamping the gate on this one at the starting line has no effect at all on boost. That probably is mostly the cam.


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