Turbo drain problems - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
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post #1 of 29 Old 09-16-2016, 05:03 PM Thread Starter
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Turbo drain problems

For the turbo guys, I've got the hp performance twin kit on my 04. They are mounted as high as possible and scavenger pump installed as well, In an attempt to solve my 50 oil leaks due to the drain back system, I put on 5/8 clear reinforced tubing to watch everything going on. Is this size sufficient? Originally they used heater hose tubing, but the oil would heat it up, cause the line to sag, back fill into the turbo and blow out the seals. I thought about using some of the aluminum tubing with an fittings or just using braided line. I still haven't cured this leak problem, and it liked to puke out on the dyno. I have made catch cans, smaller inlet lines, and restrictors and I can still see oil backing up.

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post #2 of 29 Old 09-16-2016, 05:18 PM
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do you have an oil restrictor on the turbo

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post #3 of 29 Old 09-16-2016, 07:37 PM
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You need a scavenger pump.

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post #4 of 29 Old 09-16-2016, 07:43 PM Thread Starter
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it has a scavenger pump and restrictors.
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post #5 of 29 Old 09-16-2016, 10:17 PM Thread Starter
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to further clarify, each turbo is fed with a -3 line with .037 restrictor. Originally the kit drained into 3/4" hoses that tee down by the lower radiator support into a smaller 1/2" pipe that fed the scavenger pump. From there it pumps back into the front of the oil pan. I kept blowing oil past the seals on the turbos and had to get them rebuilt because of the oil that pooled in the intercooler, out the exhaust, and on the inlet snout. I then decided to replace the heater hose with clear pipe to see what was causing the excessive oil. Sure enough oil was not being scavenged fast enough and backing up into the turbos. Not wanting to restrict inlet further, I welded up a drip pan, or reservoir similar to ones found on the low slung turbos on older Porsches to allow more oil capacity. This seems to work a little, but is causing problems of its own with sealing, and there is no way one will fit on the passengers side due to the lack of room. At this point I'm tempted to replace the barb flanges and fittings and worm clamps on the return side to an fittings and hoses that will remain rigid so the gravity is allowing it to feed directly, and will seal better.
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post #6 of 29 Old 09-16-2016, 11:37 PM
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What scavenger pump are you using?

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post #7 of 29 Old 09-17-2016, 04:38 AM Thread Starter
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It's a westech pump, single 1/2 inlet and single outlet. Most of the turbo drains I've found are -10 which is 5/8 outside diameter versus the 3/4" id I'm currently running. Currently I am leaking around the drain flanges which is probably a bad gasket, intercooler outlet (at the bottom) and around most of the fittings and worm clamps. By replacing this harder clear plastic with the heater hose should seal most of that up, but again, I need rigidity to keep a consistent gravity feed to the pump. Some measurements I took shows a 8" drop from turbo outlet flange to the tee, another 1" drop to the pump, and then back up 2" to the front of the pan.
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post #8 of 29 Old 09-17-2016, 09:06 AM
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Did you have the turbo seals fixed? Once they start leaking they really won't stop and you should have them repaired again.


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post #9 of 29 Old 09-17-2016, 11:00 AM Thread Starter
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They are Garretts, they have been rebuilt twice now, both times less than 1000 miles. They are journal bearing and have the 360 thrust bearing. I'm almost positive I've covered all the bases. I pulled the lower intercooler coupling this morning and had almost 3 tablespoons of oil drain out, all after a 4 hour thrashing on the dyno and a 10 mile drive.
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post #10 of 29 Old 09-17-2016, 11:17 AM
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Run the drain lines directly to the scavenger pump. I have -10 fittings and steel braided lines. I have had it this way for about 10 years and haven't had any seal issues. I also have -4 feed lines and ran one .064 restrictor.


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post #11 of 29 Old 09-17-2016, 04:15 PM Thread Starter
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It has a single inlet and outlet, I completely understand the concept not having one back up the other, but would you run it to a Y or would I have to get a dual inlet pump? Thanks for the input on braided lines and -10.
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post #12 of 29 Old 09-17-2016, 10:14 PM
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I run both drain lines to a T that is attached to the pump.

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post #13 of 29 Old 09-17-2016, 10:31 PM
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I'm having issues with my TT setup also and I'm going to try several things at once. Currently my turbos drain into the pan through two different bungs.

1. I'll be running a scavenge pump with a Y and returning the oil from the pump through one bung in the pan.

2. Mod motors feed too much oil pressure to the turbos, they don't need 100psi of pressure so I'll be running a bypass valve and feed the turbos 60psi at high rpm.

http://www.petersonfluidsys.com/Imag...c_rempress.jpg

This valve requires the excess oil to be returned to the pan and will be connected to one of the bungs in the pan. The issue I need to work out is this valve uses -10 lines so I need to see if I can get a large threaded adapter that goes down to a -4 feed then I'll use a -8 for the return line to the pan.

If I can get the oil pressure dialed back down with the bypass valve I may completely remove the scavenge pump if I don't care for the routing of the drain lines.

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post #14 of 29 Old 09-17-2016, 11:31 PM Thread Starter
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I agree with you, entirely too much much pressure, but would hate to restrict. A Y would be better than a T, but I thought increasing the volume in the line versus cavitation the pump was a fine line. Honestly not sure where to go from here. Maybe the blow by is not a result of excessive pressure and little drainage, but I had a turbo 4banger at one time and it was never coated in this much oil...
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post #15 of 29 Old 09-18-2016, 10:24 AM Thread Starter
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Just a thought on the application of the restrictors: just like a garden hose if you put your thumb over the end is makes a high pressure spray, but if you restrict further back it slows the velocity. Would restricting it off the the spot where the lines come off the block be better than right on top the turbo?
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post #16 of 29 Old 09-18-2016, 11:08 AM
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My .064 restrictor was placed at the oil sending bung. Then the T was attached to the restrictor. Then the two -4 feed lines.

The pump sucks the oil from the lines. I dont see a Y making a difference, but they do sell them. So it's only a little extra money.

I dont see the bypass valve being needed. There are 1000's of guys running setups without issue.

Two much oil pressure pushes oil into the compressor side. A drainage backup pushes oil into the exhaust.

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post #17 of 29 Old 09-18-2016, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2k02 View Post
I dont see the bypass valve being needed. There are 1000's of guys running setups without issue.
There are also thousands of guys having issues. Depending on how you look at it the restrictor is a bandaid to deal with too much oil pressure. I spoke to many LS guys over the last few years and the ones I spoke with don't run any type of restictor or scavenge pump with no drain issues and they told me that they don't run any where near the oil pressure we run.

The only cars that really have this issue are cars that produce a lot of oil pressure and this is not limited to just Mustangs.

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post #18 of 29 Old 09-18-2016, 12:15 PM Thread Starter
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The dry sump oiling system I assume would be the best idea, only then can you dial in a seperate lower oil pressure. Im going to attempt to move the restrictor, but it would be interesting to have a manual gauge plumbed inline somehow to see what kinds of pressures the turbo journals are seeing. Does anyone see issue with running the scavenger pump after the engine is shut off to further draw away oil? And also, anyone see any excessive crankcase pressure or problems with leaking due to either the topside or bottom sides being pressurized due to the whole set up?
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post #19 of 29 Old 09-18-2016, 12:17 PM Thread Starter
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Y2k02, what does your restrictor look like? Got any links to where I can get it? I like the idea of a single one in that location rather than my 2 that are at the turbo inlet.
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post #20 of 29 Old 09-18-2016, 12:44 PM
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Your bypass valve will be acting as the restrictor but costing a lot more.
Even Garrett states a restrictor may be needed if you system has too much pressure.
https://turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/faq

You are not telling me anything that I didnt find out 10 years ago when I added the turbos and had the issues you are having now.

Some guys with high mounted turbo even had drain back issues when their return bung was placed at the front of the pan. Under hard braking the oil would slosh to the front of the pan and cause a blockage. Then their car would smoke. A scavenge pump eliminates that issue also.

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post #21 of 29 Old 09-18-2016, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2k02 View Post
Your bypass valve will be acting as the restrictor but costing a lot more.
Even Garrett states a restrictor may be needed if you system has too much pressure.
https://turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/faq
They want the customer to correct any issue that could be causing the seals to leak before using restrictors and they gave a few examples and although it wasn't stated, IMO, this includes too high of oil pressure. Naturally only a phone call to them directly to explain a given circumstance would give us what they really want us to do. Turbos are engineered to specifications and I doubt 100psi of oil pressure was in the design specs otherwise people wouldn't be having these issues. They even have recommended oil pressure that their turbos are designed to work with.

From Garret: "With that as background, an oil restrictor is generally not needed for a journal-bearing turbocharger except for those applications with oil-pressure-induced seal leakage. Remember to address all other potential causes of leakage first (e.g., inadequate/improper oil drain out of the turbocharger, excessive crankcase pressure, turbocharger past its useful service life, etc.) and use a restrictor as a last resort. Garrett distributors can tell you the recommended range of acceptable oil pressures for your particular turbo. Restrictor size will always depend on how much oil pressure your engine is generating-there is no single restrictor size suited for all engines."

Naturally everyone has their own acceptable ways to deal with the blown seals. For me: If reducing the oil pressure solves my issues this would be sooo much easier on my car than trying to figure out how to mount a scavenge pump and route the lines but most people aren't as picky as I am.

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post #22 of 29 Old 09-18-2016, 02:31 PM
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Turbo Oil Regulator - Freelance Motorsports LLC
http://vonberg.com/catalog.html?id=1
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post #23 of 29 Old 09-19-2016, 01:39 PM Thread Starter
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Last time I talked to Garrett, they said the 037 restrictor was as small as the recommend on the journal bearings, I'll try that single supply line restrictor before it T's off to each turbo. I can safely assume the seals in the turbo need replaced again. What flanges are you guys using? I'm going to go the braided line route, I'll try using a Y instead of a T to prevent backup, and try to find larger fittings for the westech pump.
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post #24 of 29 Old 09-19-2016, 10:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KEVIN$ View Post

Naturally everyone has their own acceptable ways to deal with the blown seals. For me: If reducing the oil pressure solves my issues this would be sooo much easier on my car than trying to figure out how to mount a scavenge pump and route the lines but most people aren't as picky as I am.

ks
As you say to do it right. That would be lower the oil pressure. If you run a cobra oil pump you can swap out the pressure spring for a gt pump pressure spring.
That's what I did in this video.
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post #25 of 29 Old 09-19-2016, 10:26 PM Thread Starter
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I restricted it and scavenged it. I'm using the melving cobra he oil pump, not sure of cold psi or hot. When I have it on a lift I can see the oil in the lines, that is the purpose of me putting on temporary clear tubing. Pretty much all the time it is solid full of oil. I had to hard wire the pump and I have a switch to allow it to run after the engine is shut off because if the engine is fired up for 10 seconds without the pump on, it would immediately pour oil out the exhaust pipes. Granted the pipes are 18" dumps, that's still a lot of oil being pumped and scavenged.
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post #26 of 29 Old 09-19-2016, 10:37 PM
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I think you really have a drain back issue. Maybe your pump is shot.
You can tell in this video my pump has no issue getting rid of the oil.

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post #27 of 29 Old 09-19-2016, 11:27 PM
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I agree about the pump possibly not working properly or the drain into the pan being clogged or partially clogged.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrucialProspect View Post
I had to hard wire the pump and I have a switch to allow it to run after the engine is shut off because if the engine is fired up for 10 seconds without the pump on, it would immediately pour oil out the exhaust pipes.
Also, if the pump is not turned on when the car is running then that is a clog in the drain lines. Oil will not drain past the gears in the pump so it just backs up in the bearing housing.

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post #28 of 29 Old 09-20-2016, 04:52 AM Thread Starter
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the pump is scavenging, maybe not so efficiently 8 years later. I can see if there's a rebuild kit just in case. I can also check voltage to make sure it's running full volume. I was just unimpressed with the fact that I have 2 3/4" lines that get necked down to a single 1/2" line into the pump and back into the pan, I just wanted to use the an fittings to eliminate all these leaks I'm getting using barbed fittings, rubber lines, and worm clamps, but if there's this much oil in the system at shut down, going to a -10 line would back up in the head unit. As for blockages, everything is clean and clear, had to replace oil pan gasket last month. The hardwiring pump problem occurred when the shop installed the pump on a fusible link requiring a switch to turn on. Before hardwiring it to keyed switch, I'm guilty of forgetting a time or two.
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post #29 of 29 Old 09-20-2016, 04:21 PM Thread Starter
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Apologies, the oil pump is a Melling m176, standard volume, standard pressure. So I shouldn't be running too high a pressure...
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