Cylinder cut out - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
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post #1 of 35 Old 04-20-2016, 07:04 PM Thread Starter
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Cylinder cut out

Put my car on the dyno yesterday. Car runs fine at idle and light throttle but as soon as boost comes on it cuts out and bucks.

Combo:

.040 stock short block, f303 cam, edelbrock performer heads with 5845 roller springs. Explorer upper/lower, 65mm throttle body. 42lb injectors, 255lph pump. Msd 6al ignition, blaster coil. Stock distributor w/ msd cap/rotor. Auto lite 3923's gapped to .028. Ford racing plug wires.



So far I have tried swapping plugs, wires, coil. Disconnected 6al and ran off the factory computer. Still cuts out.


1995 Mustang GT 5.0
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post #2 of 35 Old 04-20-2016, 11:22 PM
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How much boost does it start at? I for one would also change out the wires from ford racing to a good quality wire such as MSD or Taylor and switch to an NGK plug. I always ran Autolite but when I went turbo I started having issues with them and have heard many others having recent problems with them. The FR wires have a tendency to have ohm resistance problems. May not be your problem but I would start there. You may have a wiring issue also. Might be something not showing it's there until the demand and resistance levels spike.


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post #3 of 35 Old 04-20-2016, 11:23 PM
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How does the air/fuel ratio look when this happens? My car was going lean and would fall on its face when it went lean.
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post #4 of 35 Old 04-20-2016, 11:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 99gt04 View Post
How does the air/fuel ratio look when this happens? My car was going lean and would fall on its face when it went lean.
+1

Could be fuel, since you have swapped ignitions and wires with no change.

Do you have any way to monitor air-fuel ratio or fuel pressure when doing a pull?? Be real careful, if it is running out of fuel you can damage the engine.


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post #5 of 35 Old 04-20-2016, 11:59 PM
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the gap is too big... you are likely blowing out the spark

try a gap at around .020 for boost

you are also likely going to be pushing the limits of the 255 pump and those 43 lb injectors...
so just be careful and pay attention to the fuel pressure and to the Air fuel ratio


after you gap the plugs tighter...if fuel pressure stays stable, and Injector duty cycle is still below 90%, and you have to throw a bunch of fuel at it to get the Air fuel in line, that shows you are blowing out spark still, and may need to address the plug wires, distributor/coil

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post #6 of 35 Old 04-21-2016, 09:29 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rudder9 View Post
How much boost does it start at? I for one would also change out the wires from ford racing to a good quality wire such as MSD or Taylor and switch to an NGK plug. I always ran Autolite but when I went turbo I started having issues with them and have heard many others having recent problems with them. The FR wires have a tendency to have ohm resistance problems. May not be your problem but I would start there. You may have a wiring issue also. Might be something not showing it's there until the demand and resistance levels spike.

1-2lbs. As soon as boost comes on it cuts out.
I've ran the ford wires for years with never an issue. Same thing goes for the auto lites
This is a whole new motor. Old motor was just a stock '86 long block that took 16psi on a regular basis. Never had an issue like this.

1995 Mustang GT 5.0
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post #7 of 35 Old 04-21-2016, 09:38 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 99gt04 View Post
How does the air/fuel ratio look when this happens? My car was going lean and would fall on its face when it went lean.

Fuel pressure comes right up, tough to read air/fuel since it happens so quick with such little throttle.

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post #8 of 35 Old 04-21-2016, 09:45 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by S2H View Post
the gap is too big... you are likely blowing out the spark



try a gap at around .020 for boost



you are also likely going to be pushing the limits of the 255 pump and those 43 lb injectors...

so just be careful and pay attention to the fuel pressure and to the Air fuel ratio





after you gap the plugs tighter...if fuel pressure stays stable, and Injector duty cycle is still below 90%, and you have to throw a bunch of fuel at it to get the Air fuel in line, that shows you are blowing out spark still, and may need to address the plug wires, distributor/coil

Don't want to question your knowledge because I originally thought spark blow out, however it happens real low in the rpm's with not a lot of throttle so not a ton of air getting in. Also I know with my old engine, I ran the plugs at .030 and pushed it to 16+psi and never had spark blow out. Also know that engine had very restrictive heads and a baby cam but still 16psi is a lot of air being forced in.

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post #9 of 35 Old 04-21-2016, 08:14 PM Thread Starter
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Swapped out distributor today with a band new one. Still acted up. Watched fuel pressure gauge and that climbed nicely to 50psi before I got out of it.
Tough to read wide band cause once it cuts out the reading is all over the place.
Going to try closing the gap some tomorrow and see

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post #10 of 35 Old 04-21-2016, 10:52 PM
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I know you said you've never had an issue with AL plugs and neither did I until I threw the turbo on. I was eating 3923's like tic tac's. Switched to the NGK and no more issues. Same set in there since last summer, bunch of track runs, lots of street miles and 93 and 110 gas. .028 gap and 14 psi and a very safe tune.


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post #11 of 35 Old 04-21-2016, 11:03 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rudder9 View Post
I know you said you've never had an issue with AL plugs and neither did I until I threw the turbo on. I was eating 3923's like tic tac's. Switched to the NGK and no more issues. Same set in there since last summer, bunch of track runs, lots of street miles and 93 and 110 gas. .028 gap and 14 psi and a very safe tune.

Tr5's?

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post #12 of 35 Old 04-21-2016, 11:21 PM
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No R5671A-8, stock number 4554

1995 lightning Forged 383 sbf. AFR 195 heads, Silverstate motorsports turbo kit, 76mm T-netics turbo, 50mm wg, Tial 50mm bov, Punisher built E40D, Circle D 258mm 3200 converter, Built 8.8 with welded tubes,DTS girdle, Tru-Trac and LFP 58" Longbars, Tuned by Fast
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post #13 of 35 Old 04-22-2016, 03:42 PM
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Could still be spark blow out. On my 94, when I swapped the engine and went turbo, I did not hook the Mallory 685 back up. My stock ignition would run fine at light and part throttle but give it any more and it would fall on its face. I would think if your MSD was working correctly, it would easily handle .028 of plug gap with that little of boost. Something to think about if switching plugs doesn't help.
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post #14 of 35 Old 04-22-2016, 06:36 PM
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On the other hand, I ran 24 psi with the stock Ford TFI ignition and Motorsport wires with .032 gap, and never had an issue. Only change was a MSD TFI coil.

With a CD ignition box I can run any gap I want (within reason, I have not tried .045 or more LOL) and not have "blow out".

Since you have issues at part throttle and have swapped dizzy's (which I assume means TFI and PIP), I would look at things like the grounding.

I've been doing this off and on for 48 years, and have yet to have an engine critical for plug gap. That aside, since to have a light throttle low speed issue, you are wasting time with gap and plugs (unless they are broken).

You may have to put a scope on it.


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post #15 of 35 Old 04-22-2016, 06:54 PM Thread Starter
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Today I did close them up to .020. That didn't help any. I was able to get a better look at my wide band and was seeing 13's! I turned up my fuel pressure and that seemed to help but still has a stutter.
Going to put the plugs back to .028 and see how that works

Also called edelbrock and asked about my combo. They said those springs should have no problem with my cam/combo.

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post #16 of 35 Old 04-23-2016, 12:02 PM Thread Starter
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Cylinder cut out

Well today regapped my plugs back up and kept the fuel pressure up. Still no change.
Starting to question my old performer heads. Wondering if the valves are worn enough to creat a leak.
Noticed today some intake backfire

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post #17 of 35 Old 04-23-2016, 05:10 PM
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Intake popping sounds like a lean issue, but I still think you have another electrical issue going on. Just touching the throttle lightly and it causes a cut out seems like there's another issue and I don't think it's your heads. Have you checked your tps voltage, maf sensor voltage? Gone over the grounds and making sure the contact is tight and clean.

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post #18 of 35 Old 04-23-2016, 11:38 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rudder9 View Post
Intake popping sounds like a lean issue, but I still think you have another electrical issue going on. Just touching the throttle lightly and it causes a cut out seems like there's another issue and I don't think it's your heads. Have you checked your tps voltage, maf sensor voltage? Gone over the grounds and making sure the contact is tight and clean.

Haven't checked any voltage. I've checked the grounds but I'll check them again.
As for voltage, what should I look for on the tps and maf? Also, how do I check the maf voltage?

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post #19 of 35 Old 04-26-2016, 09:33 AM
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Possible

wrong firing order

lack of fuel

A big pump and big fuel lines, and big injectors really mean nothing, if the ECM commands little pulses.

Do you have access to the stock 02 sensor voltages? they are far better to use for diagnosis.

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post #20 of 35 Old 04-26-2016, 09:39 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by indy2000 View Post
Possible



wrong firing order



lack of fuel



A big pump and big fuel lines, and big injectors really mean nothing, if the ECM commands little pulses.



Do you have access to the stock 02 sensor voltages? they are far better to use for diagnosis.

If it was wrong firing order wouldn't it run like crap all the time? I only have a problem under load.

Have fuel pressure turned way up and have air fuel of 11.7 at wot.

O2's are turned off

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post #21 of 35 Old 04-26-2016, 09:51 AM
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no

Sorry, forgot about fuel pressure.........so add to above, even if you have fuel pressure cranked up, this still does NOT mean you have correct fuel being delivered. If you have access to commanded PW maybe we can do some math

Why are the 02 turned off? is there a reason why you don't want to have fuel corrections?

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post #22 of 35 Old 04-26-2016, 10:38 AM Thread Starter
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no



Sorry, forgot about fuel pressure.........so add to above, even if you have fuel pressure cranked up, this still does NOT mean you have correct fuel being delivered. If you have access to commanded PW maybe we can do some math



Why are the 02 turned off? is there a reason why you don't want to have fuel corrections?

Please forgive my ignorance, but what is command PW?
Tuner turned them off years ago, don't really know why.

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post #23 of 35 Old 04-26-2016, 01:13 PM
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I didn't see the timing curve mentioned anywhere. Is it pulling timing for boost or is it still advancing like a naturally aspirated engine?
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post #24 of 35 Old 04-26-2016, 01:32 PM Thread Starter
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I didn't see the timing curve mentioned anywhere. Is it pulling timing for boost or is it still advancing like a naturally aspirated engine?

When I left the dyno, tuner said he adjusted the timing to a safe level for testing.

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post #25 of 35 Old 04-26-2016, 07:09 PM
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Please forgive my ignorance, but what is command PW?
Tuner turned them off years ago, don't really know why.
the amount of time an injector is energized is the width of the pulse

therefore, called pulse width PW.

If you don't know why, and I don't know why, suggest you have it turned back on.

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post #26 of 35 Old 04-27-2016, 11:46 AM
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Did you look into your mass air meter?

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post #27 of 35 Old 04-27-2016, 06:42 PM Thread Starter
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Did you look into your mass air meter?

No not yet. What exactly should I be looking for?

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post #28 of 35 Old 04-27-2016, 07:57 PM
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look into it, and describe what you see.
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post #29 of 35 Old 04-28-2016, 03:02 AM
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look into it, and describe what you see.
Dick!
OP, look into what are you using to tune? Forgive me if I missed it. Anyhow, there are MANY parameters that could lead to this. If you're the curious type, like myself, do some research on self tuning, MSEFI.org is a wealth of knowledge. Some people will badmouth Megasquirt, others will praise them. Regardless, you learn a lot about how EFI works and how your engine works with it.
Indy knows some stuff, but is also very difficult to deal with, so take it with a grain of salt. Not everyone here is so full of themselves.
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post #30 of 35 Old 04-28-2016, 08:10 AM Thread Starter
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Dick!

OP, look into what are you using to tune? Forgive me if I missed it. Anyhow, there are MANY parameters that could lead to this. If you're the curious type, like myself, do some research on self tuning, MSEFI.org is a wealth of knowledge. Some people will badmouth Megasquirt, others will praise them. Regardless, you learn a lot about how EFI works and how your engine works with it.

Indy knows some stuff, but is also very difficult to deal with, so take it with a grain of salt. Not everyone here is so full of themselves.

Using a sct chip. I bought a tweecer a couple years ago but never really looked into using it. Shortly after I bought it I was able to get my car to my tuner and car ran great from that point till now.

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post #31 of 35 Old 04-28-2016, 09:22 AM
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Using a sct chip. I bought a tweecer a couple years ago but never really looked into using it. Shortly after I bought it I was able to get my car to my tuner and car ran great from that point till now.

you have a tweecer on the shelf, and not using it?

if so, you have a powerful diagnostic tool, not being used.

Also, do you know how the 2 hot wire maf system works?

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post #32 of 35 Old 04-28-2016, 10:01 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by indy2000 View Post
you have a tweecer on the shelf, and not using it?



if so, you have a powerful diagnostic tool, not being used.



Also, do you know how the 2 hot wire maf system works?

No honestly, tuning is not my expertise. It's all Chinese to me.

I think I have an idea but not 100% sure.

So on other news. Just did a compression test. Here are the results.
#1 = 135psi
#2 = 145psi
#3 = 127psi
#4 = 140psi
#5 = 135psi
#6 = 145psi
#7 = 140psi
#8 = 145psi

Did leak down on cylinder 3. Got 27% leak down. Could put my finger over dipstick and could hear some air. Also could hear air in the exhaust. What does this mean?

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post #33 of 35 Old 04-28-2016, 01:08 PM Thread Starter
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Ok now this is strange...
After finishing up the compression/leak down test. I tried starting the car and had a crank no start.
Had a friend over and we checked for spark. Said it was sparking but very little.
Swapped out my coil for my old blaster I had on the shelf. It started. Plugged it back into the one on the car and no start. Back into the old coil and it started.
Picking up a new coil today. Let you know the results tomorrow

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post #34 of 35 Old 04-29-2016, 02:40 PM Thread Starter
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Put new coil in and car started right up, still had breaking up issue. Swapped out cap and rotor and still acted up.
Pulled valve cover and pulled rockers off cylinder 3 and 1. Did leak down on both. 3 still had 27% leak down. 1 only had 11%.
Now obviously there is something wrong with cylinder 3, but would it cause my issues? I don't want to drop the $$ on new heads if that won't fix my current problems. However I know there is a problem that needs to fixed so I'm at a crossroad...

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post #35 of 35 Old 04-29-2016, 06:24 PM
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you can go no where until you address the compression problem

heads have to off
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