PCV and/or Blowby help - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
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post #1 of 30 Old 04-20-2016, 01:50 PM Thread Starter
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PCV and/or Blowby help

I am running a 306 with forged internals, edelbrock heads and an On3 turbo kit. Though they get bashed quite a bit, I have had no issues with mine. This motor went together a little loose. My piston to wall clearance is anywhere from .050 to .018. I have been told, and from what Im learning in a turbo set up I do not want to run a pcv system? What I don't know is if the smoke Im seeing coming out the breather at this catch can is blowby, or smoke in the engine that has nowhere to go due to a not so adequate pcs/vent situation? What I have is a 5/8 hose and fitting coming off the back of the intake where the pcv would be going into a catch can with a filter on top. I have it mounted behind the strut tower on the passenger side. There are times when the smoke is just pouring out from under the hood on that side. I also notice when it idles for too long it will start to smoke out the exhaust, especially if I hammer down on it, but it will usual clear itself out. I believe that's a problem in the center section of the turbo leaking oil though. I have the passenger valve cover sealed off due to no room to put a breather, or even a cap on it cause the throttle cable bracket is in the way. On the drivers valve cover I am just running a filter type breather. I have been going through the forums and there is a lot of information that contradicts itself. Is it possible this is not blow by I am seeing and pressure build up in the engine? I had a nice set of trickflow valve covers with a bunge welded in for a nice fitting but they would clear the intake. When I put the spacer in it wouldn't clear the hood..I have a cool set of Ford Motorsport Valve Covers but for some reason the angle at the upper corners is cust weird and the rockers hit the cover. Any help on whet to do would be appreciated...a pic to steer me in the right direction would be helpful to.

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post #2 of 30 Old 04-21-2016, 11:35 AM
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What color is the smoke coming out of the catch can and exhaust?

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post #3 of 30 Old 04-21-2016, 07:13 PM Thread Starter
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The smoke out the exhaust turns into a thick, kinda dirty white smoke. As it sits and idles it tends to get worse and worse. Once I take off it seems to clear itself out. Im assuming this is more of
a problem with the center section of the turbo leaking? The catch can is more of a clear white smoke. Its embarrassing due to the fact the can mounted behind the passenger front strut tower and the smoke will billow out between the hood and fender at that side.
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post #4 of 30 Old 04-26-2016, 09:28 AM
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the info on the PCV system is very clear, I don't see where you got confused.

Most don't prepare themselves for the eventuality that pressurizing the long intake tract and increased cylinder pressure will develop MORE than stock blowby with it being difficult to get fresh air into the crankcase.

You need to decide, do you want a PCV system?

or a NON PCV system, and deal with the mess and fumes......

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post #5 of 30 Old 04-26-2016, 10:05 AM
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^
Or do a PROPER evac system.

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post #6 of 30 Old 04-28-2016, 01:52 PM Thread Starter
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Frpm researching this subject am I correct in saying with a turbo I don't want a pcv set up?
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post #7 of 30 Old 04-28-2016, 02:49 PM
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Something that may be interesting for you to read:

https://forums.corral.net/forums/drag...case-evac.html

ks


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post #8 of 30 Old 04-28-2016, 02:57 PM
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yes you want a pcv system, it will reduce windage, reduce emissions, reduce leaks and reduce rotating assembly resistance, its free power

youll need two check valves and two catch cans to properly set it up

heres the details

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post #9 of 30 Old 04-28-2016, 03:27 PM
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From my personal experience:

I originally blocked off the PCV valve had a vented catch can with a line coming off of each valve cover. I never had the blowby issues you are having but I did notice that my oil got dirty petty quick with the catch can. Also, if there is no way to pull the combustion gases out of the crankcase, like a proper PCV system does, these gases settle onto internal engine parts and into the oil. This will cause engine parts to corrode over time. Like this:



I installed a modified PCV system on my draw thru turbo car. I used a Turbo Coupe PCV valve which has a check that is not supposed to allow boost into the crankcase. In testing it worked properly about 50% of the time. I still used it (will probably go back and gut this valve) and ran a 3/8" line off of it to an oil seperator like this one: JEGS Performance Products 52205, JEGS Air Oil Separator | JEGS Performance Products. From the other side of the seperator the line goes to this check valve: McMaster-Carr which is very well built and will not let boost pressure back into the crankcase. From there it splits into two 3/8" lines that run to the intake.

To pull fresh metered air into the crankcase, I used the factory nipple off of the passenger side valve cover and ran a line into the piping after the mass air meter. I installed an inline fuel filter like this one: http://www.autozone.com/filters-and-...er/246927_0_0/ just in case to keep anything out of the intake tract. The filter is hidden under the front fender because it would look terrible if not.

I then installed this in place of my sealed factory oil cap: http://www.c-f-m.com/performancepart...idproduct=3206. This oil cap/breather has an internal check ball and is baffled. It seals off under vacuum and does not allow unmetered air into the system. When in boost it opens and vents any crankcase pressure. It is a high quality piece and works well.

I now have a closed PCV system on my boosted car that works like factory. This setup works perfectly on my car since it is draw thru. On a blow thru system the metered fresh air would have to come from a different (non boosted) source like the inlet of the turbo/supercharger.
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post #10 of 30 Old 04-28-2016, 08:36 PM
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PCV removes moisture

and all the bad things associated with what moisture in the crankcase does

A vent does NOT remove moisture.

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post #11 of 30 Old 04-28-2016, 09:25 PM
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If a vent tube relieves blow by pressure, but does not remove contaniments or moisture.
What does a PCV system do under boost where blow-by pressure becomes a problem?

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post #12 of 30 Old 04-29-2016, 12:12 AM
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when out of boost, PCV becomes active

If you are in boost 100% of the time, you will need an evac system, belt or electric powered.

There are a lot of factory turbo cars out there, that run a PCV

think like them

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post #13 of 30 Old 04-29-2016, 02:02 AM
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This is a fact.
I learned this with my rear mount turbo as it has its own set of challenges to keep from boosting the bottom end.
I tried no pcv valve and venting, but the smell was terrible at times and the oil turned black very quickly.

I'm of the opinion venting is a short term solution, and a pcv system is the real solution.
I learned this the hard way.

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post #14 of 30 Old 04-29-2016, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indy2000 View Post
when out of boost, PCV becomes active

If you are in boost 100% of the time, you will need an evac system, belt or electric powered.

There are a lot of factory turbo cars out there, that run a PCV

think like them
Thanks, but whos question were you attempting to answer? Because that was not an answer to the question I asked.

When in boost, where blow by occurred, what does a PCV do? That's the question.

Blow by has caused mine & others cars to blow out seals and leak oil. The vent tube has corrected this issue.

So again under boost what will a PCV do? If it closes and does nothing, how is that doing anything to help vent crank case pressure? And there by helping my non-factory turbo car retain seated seals?

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post #15 of 30 Old 04-29-2016, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meegs View Post
Thanks, but whos question were you attempting to answer? Because that was not an answer to the question I asked.

When in boost, where blow by occurred, what does a PCV do? That's the question.

Blow by has caused mine & others cars to blow out seals and leak oil. The vent tube has corrected this issue.

So again under boost what will a PCV do? If it closes and does nothing, how is that doing anything to help vent crank case pressure? And there by helping my non-factory turbo car retain seated seals?
Its obvious the PCV will be closed, and I was answering your question, when not in boost the PCV will functional

So, you are in boost 100% of the time?

If so, YOU have to come up with a better system, if you would like to retain the PCV system,,,,,,,,,, like I suggested

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post #16 of 30 Old 04-29-2016, 10:51 AM Thread Starter
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Wow..lots of information and I appreciate it. I have always assumed that the excessive smoke I am seeing is blow by only because this motor was put together a tad loose. Is it possible the smoke I am seeing is not necessarily blow by and just the crank case venting poorly? My current set up is no pcv, but a line coming off the lower intake where the pcv would be going to a catch can. I have some aftermarket valve covers and on the passenger side I am just running a cap. The oil fill hole rides right below the throttle cable bracket so no room to put a filter there. The drivers side I am just running a small filter...not a lot of room their either due to the silly intake hovers just above the opening. The original reason I posted was I was curious if the smoke I am seeing is blowby or could it be the crankcase venting.
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post #17 of 30 Old 04-29-2016, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by indy2000 View Post
Its obvious the PCV will be closed, and I was answering your question, when not in boost the PCV will functional

So, you are in boost 100% of the time?

If so, YOU have to come up with a better system, if you would like to retain the PCV system,,,,,,,,,, like I suggested
Oh, guess I didn't know pressure caused by blow-by that pushes out oil seals.
Only happens if someone is in boost 100% of the time.

Thought it only took 1 time.

So the guys that had to resort to vent tubes to combat crank case pressure must be the guys in boost 100% of the time. And a PCV will solve the blowing out of seals. Which is the reason they went to the vent tube in the first place.

At least we know the remedy (PCV) will cure the symptom.

That clears it up!

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post #18 of 30 Old 04-29-2016, 03:02 PM
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The PCV is/has to be closed under boost, therefore inoperable. The system I use works both ways. In vacuum the PCV works normally and removes moisture and combustion gases. When in boost my inline check valve keeps pressure from entering the crankcase through the PCV valve and the check valve opens on the oil filler cap to relieve any pressure in the crankcase and keep it from blowing out seals.

You have to have an escape route for any crankcase pressure that occurs while under boost. Otherwise oil leaks will happen. On the other hand, you can't have an open breather and a PCV system at the same time without having a huge vacuum leak when unmetered air is pulled through the open breather, through the PCV valve, and into the intake. This is where the check ball in the breather I listed earlier comes into play. It seals under vacuum and vents under boost. Best of both worlds. No oil leaks, no vacuum leaks, and a functioning PCV system.
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post #19 of 30 Old 04-29-2016, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ELDEST928 View Post
Wow..lots of information and I appreciate it. I have always assumed that the excessive smoke I am seeing is blow by only because this motor was put together a tad loose. Is it possible the smoke I am seeing is not necessarily blow by and just the crank case venting poorly? My current set up is no pcv, but a line coming off the lower intake where the pcv would be going to a catch can. I have some aftermarket valve covers and on the passenger side I am just running a cap. The oil fill hole rides right below the throttle cable bracket so no room to put a filter there. The drivers side I am just running a small filter...not a lot of room their either due to the silly intake hovers just above the opening. The original reason I posted was I was curious if the smoke I am seeing is blowby or could it be the crankcase venting.
With as much smoke as you have going, it has a ton of blowby just idling. I don't think anything short of rebuilding or replacing the bottom end is going to help you.
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post #20 of 30 Old 04-29-2016, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indy2000 View Post
PCV removes moisture

and all the bad things associated with what moisture in the crankcase does

A vent does NOT remove moisture.
I can agree with this. As soon as I fire my car up, the air/oil separator starts to fog up with moisture. It's doing its job.
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post #21 of 30 Old 04-29-2016, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meegs View Post
Oh, guess I didn't know pressure caused by blow-by that pushes out oil seals.
Only happens if someone is in boost 100% of the time.

Thought it only took 1 time.

So the guys that had to resort to vent tubes to combat crank case pressure must be the guys in boost 100% of the time. And a PCV will solve the blowing out of seals. Which is the reason they went to the vent tube in the first place.

At least we know the remedy (PCV) will cure the symptom.

That clears it up!
blaming the pcv because of blowby.........good one!!

re-read the part about evac system, slowly.

it will come, trust it.

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post #22 of 30 Old 04-30-2016, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by indy2000 View Post
blaming the pcv because of blowby.........good one!!

re-read the part about evac system, slowly.

it will come, trust it.
Trying to use a PCV for a blow by issue. Good one! At least you understand that the PCV is closed and doing NOTHING at the time of increased blow by on boosted cars.

PCV does nothing for blow by. It does nothing to prevent oil leaks, seal leaks or in any way shape or form to vent off increased crank case pressures. And most certainly does nothing to help ring seal.
The guy has a blow by issues on a boosted car and here comes the Internet talking PCV's again. Lol.

Are you in boost 100% of the time? Haha, solid gold right there.

I do run an evac system. But your comments about PCV's on anything other than an N/A setup are amusing. Ok, maybe up to a whopping 10psi ha!

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post #23 of 30 Old 04-30-2016, 01:10 PM
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removes moisture and normal blow by vapors!!!

still can't understand?

don't worry, it will come with time......

realize that most are not in boost 100% of the time, and once out, the PCV then functions......<<< ie not in boost 100% of the time.

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post #24 of 30 Old 05-02-2016, 12:52 PM
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removes moisture and normal blow by vapors!!!
A PCV will not remove normal or abnormal blow by at the time of occurrence. When in boost it's a sealed system. Which only amplifies the issue of blow by. Because it try's to remove contaminants AFTER the event, it is a reactive system. It try's to remove vapor containments, but the damage of blowing oil out seals has already taken place. The loss in compression has already taken place. The loss in ring seal has already taken place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by indy2000 View Post

realize that most are not in boost 100% of the time, and once out, the PCV then functions......<<< ie not in boost 100% of the time.
Which would be a nice reply if we put on horse blinders and neglected when a vehicle is in boost. for N/A cars a proper PCV system is great. For low boost, and fresh motors a PCV might be adequate.
For cars experiencing blow by at idle, high mileage vehicles that had turbo systems adapted to them. A PCV only solves half an issue, and will create new issues. It creates new issues because of the design of PCV systems seals in crank case pressure when in boost. Trying to state percentages of time in boost, is irrelevant. It happens each time.

If you are having a hard time understanding how positive pressure forces air to sneak past ring seals, I can draw you a free body diagram. I assure you a free body diagram will not reflect percentages of time in boost. It reflects when in boost. Be it a single time, or every time.

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post #25 of 30 Old 05-02-2016, 06:21 PM
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When it boost, it should not be a sealed system. It should be a vented system or a vacuumed system with a pump.

When out of boost it should be a vacuum pulled on the crank with a vent letting clean air in OPPOSITE the engine from the vacuum draw point or points. This way it sucks clean air through the crankcase system to pull fumes and moisture out.

This can be accomplished with check valves.

I don't do any of that now that my car is mostly a race car. When I drove on the street a PCV was necessary.

I see a little moisture in the valve covers after running a race and letting the car sit. Since it is a race motor, I don't care so much. I just change the oil.

My old system is here:

PCV System


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post #26 of 30 Old 05-02-2016, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meegs View Post
A PCV will not remove normal or abnormal blow by at the time of occurrence. When in boost it's a sealed system. Which only amplifies the issue of blow by. Because it try's to remove contaminants AFTER the event, it is a reactive system. It try's to remove vapor containments, but the damage of blowing oil out seals has already taken place. The loss in compression has already taken place. The loss in ring seal has already taken place.



Which would be a nice reply if we put on horse blinders and neglected when a vehicle is in boost. for N/A cars a proper PCV system is great. For low boost, and fresh motors a PCV might be adequate.
For cars experiencing blow by at idle, high mileage vehicles that had turbo systems adapted to them. A PCV only solves half an issue, and will create new issues. It creates new issues because of the design of PCV systems seals in crank case pressure when in boost. Trying to state percentages of time in boost, is irrelevant. It happens each time.

If you are having a hard time understanding how positive pressure forces air to sneak past ring seals, I can draw you a free body diagram. I assure you a free body diagram will not reflect percentages of time in boost. It reflects when in boost. Be it a single time, or every time.

Yes, you have ABNORMAL amount of blowby................


oh yes, don't repair the problem.......put a vent on,,,YEEEUUP..


I'm lovin every attempt you make, please show me your pics.

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post #27 of 30 Old 05-03-2016, 07:56 AM Thread Starter
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For the record, I never asked or thought that a pcv system would solve my blow by issue.Im pretty certain I have a blow by issue only because I know wha the piston to wall clearance was putting this thing together. My main question was should I be using a pcv system or not. it sounds like indy and tomr have the idea of a pcv and evac system all in one...a hybrid pcv system if you will. I was also wondering if the smoke I am seeing coming out the filter at my catch can was blow by, or crankcase fumes or a combo of both. As mention, my set up is a hose coming from back of intake where the pcv was going directly to a catch can. The passenger side valve cover is capped off and the drivers side just has a filtered breather on it. so from what I have learned, I have no vacuum source pulling any pressure/fumes from the crankcase at all. Is that coreect n saying? so what I have running on mine is just completely screwed up then eh? Some great advice and writes ups from Indy, Tomr and draggin90...I appreciate the help.
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post #28 of 30 Old 05-03-2016, 08:02 AM Thread Starter
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For the record, I never asked or thought that a pcv system would solve my blow by issue.Im pretty certain I have a blow by issue only because I know wha the piston to wall clearance was putting this thing together. My main question was should I be using a pcv system or not. it sounds like indy and tomr have the idea of a pcv and evac system all in one...a hybrid pcv system if you will. I was also wondering if the smoke I am seeing coming out the filter at my catch can was blow by, or crankcase fumes or a combo of both. As mention, my set up is a hose coming from back of intake where the pcv was going directly to a catch can. The passenger side valve cover is capped off and the drivers side just has a filtered breather on it. so from what I have learned, I have no vacuum source pulling any pressure/fumes from the crankcase at all. Is that coreect n saying? so what I have running on mine is just completely screwed up then eh? Some great advice and writes ups from Indy, Tomr and draggin90...I appreciate the help.
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post #29 of 30 Old 05-07-2016, 07:19 PM
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PCV setup explained

btw, you can use the suction of the blower/turbo to draw during boost, I do, been doing it for years and never and issues

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post #30 of 30 Old 05-08-2016, 12:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomR View Post
When it boost, it should not be a sealed system. It should be a vented system or a vacuumed system with a pump.

When out of boost it should be a vacuum pulled on the crank with a vent letting clean air in OPPOSITE the engine from the vacuum draw point or points. This way it sucks clean air through the crankcase system to pull fumes and moisture out.

This can be accomplished with check valves.

I don't do any of that now that my car is mostly a race car. When I drove on the street a PCV was necessary.

I see a little moisture in the valve covers after running a race and letting the car sit. Since it is a race motor, I don't care so much. I just change the oil.

My old system is here:

PCV System
Where did you get that oil separator?
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