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post #1 of 41 Old 02-21-2016, 04:28 PM Thread Starter
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Problem Spooling

I've got a real problem spooling the new turbo. It is an S480 with 82mm turbine inlet and 80 mm billet compressor and ported housing.

It was way up on power on the dyno over the 7675CEA, but my car is a slug now for the first 100-150 feet. I used to flash into the converter with the 7675CEA from 4300 RPM, and my car would do mid 1.2 sixties and run 5.4's in the 1/8th at 3150lbs.

Leaving at the same RPM and boost the new turbo just dies on boost, and the car doesn't move well until I can hear the turbo whine. I can get 20 psi on the line, but it takes a couple seconds. When it launches it has no power.

The PT7675CEA went to about 15-20 psi in one second off idle, and this new turbo only goes to 6 psi in that time.

The 1.8 sixty foot kills my ET. It slowed my car .6 seconds, almost exactly what the 60 ft lost. The MPH is almost the same. It is like it made the track 100 ft shorter.

I stepped the limiter up to 5500 RPM from 4300 and all it did was hit the tires real hard for a second and them crawled out like a snail.

Could something else have gone wrong, or it is the turbo? It seems to pull harder than before but does nothing for the first 100 FT and isn't feeling fully formed until I hear the turbine whine.

Thanks.



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post #2 of 41 Old 02-22-2016, 04:14 PM
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Some of the more experienced turbo car drag racers would probably provide more insight than me...I'm still new to this turbo game myself, but I'd say that you need to get it to build more boost while you're still on the transbrake before launch. You say it was dumb soft coming out at 4300 but struck the tire at 5500, so I'd try leaving at 5000 RPM and see what it does. Have you touched the tune since moving to the new turbo? If not, then maybe try messing with the tune, add a bit more fuel coming off idle (to about 4000 RPM) and/or pull some timing out to get it to spool up a bit quicker? Your experience thus far has given me insight on my build, and I'm now going with a mid-frame 80ish unit (instead of a compact T4), larger primary hotside, etc because I'm looking to go deep in the 5s on a radial. I hope you get it sorted out, and hopefully someone with more experience with big turbos and radials will chime in....

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post #3 of 41 Old 02-22-2016, 04:26 PM
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Another thing, I would expect you to pick up quite a bit more mph with the larger turbine and compressor on your combo. And it made more on the dyno than the 7675CEA did, correct? And if I recall correctly, you said it was spinning the tire on the dyno so you didn't really get a full 100% load on the dyno but on the track you're getting 100% load, and the turbo is a bit lazy. Maybe you need turn up the tune?

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post #4 of 41 Old 02-22-2016, 05:34 PM
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Nevermind, I just watched your vid over at 8.2 Deck Mafia. Based on the data you listed there, and watching the video I wouldn't touch the tune. The turbo is definitely spooled, and making boost prior to your launch.

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post #5 of 41 Old 02-22-2016, 06:05 PM
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Is it possible that the hotside piping is too large to spool it fast enough? This is what I've concluded with mine and I'm changing it all but I won't be able to test it until next month.

ks


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post #6 of 41 Old 02-22-2016, 08:47 PM
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Is it the t6? How big is your crossover? Sounds like the convertor could be at fault as well. Your motor should have no prob spooling the new turbo. What gear you run?
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post #7 of 41 Old 02-23-2016, 08:24 AM
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what was the AR of the old turbine housing and whats the AR housing of the new turbine?

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post #8 of 41 Old 02-23-2016, 09:16 AM Thread Starter
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Hey Guys, thanks.

Unless I miss something about turbos and it is plugging up the exhaust like a potato, the turbo is OK.

I'm busy looking at data logs, and it appears the turbo is spooled to the wastegate setting. At 5000 RPM limiter on the brake MAP in the elbow is around 25psi. The boost never drops below 23.5 at any point in the run, the lowest point being at or above 23.5psi 0.5 seconds after launch.

From the data I can say this:

1.) The boost is always higher than the PT7675CEA at any point of the run, and at launch is 7 psi more. (That is with RPM limiter set at 5200, which used to smoke the slicks with the PT7675. I had to launch at 15-20 psi before.)

2.) The AFR almost perfectly tracks the old pattern with the new turbo. It's hard to get a good reading there because the turbo is pushing unburned air/fuel through during RPM limit. But when the O2 recovers a fraction of a second after launch, it is at 11.5. The pattern is the same.

My problem is with over 200 HP more on tap (we do not know how much because the tires spun on the roller at some point over 1000) and ~24.5 psi boost compared to 15-20 with the PT7675CEA at release, the same AFR, the same timing (20 degrees), the same 120 octane fuel, the car will not spin the tires or lift the front end.

It used to do 1.2's in the 60 with the wheels up a few inches for the first 30-40 ft at 15-20 psi, the PT7675 never reaching peak at 24 psi until high gear. The 8280 is nominally around the wastegate setting through the whole pass.

So, unless something is killing the 200ft distance power significantly while having the same AFR and timing with about 30% more boost, I have another issue. The car does not sound like it is missing. It does not smoke. It just acts like I am leaving in high gear. As a matter of fact if I launched the PT7675CEA in high gear to use street tires, it felt this same way! But I know the trans is in low.

On 8.2 mafia someone suggested my TC has gone south. This is a sprag-less high dollar Hughes. The fluid on the stick looks perfect. I have not dropped the pan.

Unless I am missing something, if the boost is higher the power has to be higher if the mixture and timing are the same, and the dyno said the power was way up.

I'm thinking of going back to the track and turning the RPM limiter off and spooling to 20 psi against the converter, because that will eliminate the O2 going nuts from skipping cylinders. But I probably need to pull the trans pan and look for metal.


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post #9 of 41 Old 02-23-2016, 10:05 AM
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you have any way to monitor converter/ trans slip?

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post #10 of 41 Old 02-23-2016, 11:32 AM Thread Starter
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you have any way to monitor converter/ trans slip?
No. The RPM range is pretty much normal going down track, though.



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post #11 of 41 Old 02-23-2016, 12:18 PM
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Have you checked the fins on the converter? Sounds like they might have been laid flat....

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post #12 of 41 Old 02-23-2016, 12:44 PM Thread Starter
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Have you checked the fins on the converter? Sounds like they might have been laid flat....
I have no way of knowing that.

Is the general consensus of all the brain trust here that it pretty much has to be torque converter?

Based on:

1.) RPM about normal, actually higher than normal prior to brake release
2.) Boost higher at every point from trans brake release
3.) Air/fuel ratio the same
4.) Timing the same
5.) Gears the same
6.) No tire slip
7.) No wheelie
8.) Significant loss in acceleration for the first 100-200 feet, like starting in 2nd gear.

I don't mind spending on another converter just on a gamble if it is the likely shot. After all, it is a race car. It isn't like I am wasting money helping a fellow human being eat, or saving money for my future.

Is there a better converter than the Hughes?
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post #13 of 41 Old 02-23-2016, 02:35 PM
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pro torque is hands down the best converter for a turbo car... but you will need a bypass valve for the trans
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post #14 of 41 Old 02-23-2016, 03:01 PM Thread Starter
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pro torque is hands down the best converter for a turbo car... but you will need a bypass valve for the trans
What does that do, and how is it controlled?


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post #15 of 41 Old 02-23-2016, 03:27 PM
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bunch of different ways to do it... some guys use the ATF speed bypass which is pretty much a ball and spring valve with a bolt to run the pressure down on the ball. when pressure goes higher than the preset amount it blows it off back into the pan. there is the M&M 4 stage dump valves. which you can control the pressure down track. you could make your own with a big orifice teflon sealed nitrous solenoid and a pressure sensor hooked to the holley EFI and pulse the solenoid to control pressure early in the run and tighten it up on the top end to bring the converter tighter. you could also do the same thing with a raspberry pi if you wanted to do it that way

the protorque converters are on the tight side (tight is fast) which makes a bunch of converter drive pressure which can cause issues with thrust bearings.
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post #16 of 41 Old 02-23-2016, 04:25 PM
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At this point, yeah I would say the converter needs to be inspected because I honestly don't know how to diagnose a spragless converter that is failing. I guess it just goes flat like what you witnessed? It doesn't have a diode or sprag to puke parts to the fluid or pan so does it just cause the car to fall on its face when launching? I don't know much about the spragless units other than they were set up that way to reduce breakage in medium to high HP bracket cars so in theory they are supposed to be harder to damage than a sprag unit. I've always stayed away from the spragless aftermarket units because I've been told they weren't as efficient and you dropped ET and MPH, and the big name converters that are going fast use mechanical diodes as far as I know. Also, if it's the stator that has failed then I would think that you'd see more of an RPM drop on the shift due to the loss of torque multiplication as well. I would think that the gripe would follow to the shift recovery RPM as well but this is a turbo car so torque multiplication at the shift isn't as important. As far as I know, the shift recovery RPM shouldn't drop below the stall speed of the converter when WOT shifting but I've always applied this to a sprag unit. I guess the normal flash stall speed check still applies even to the spragless so you could try that before you drop the pan. I've never had to diagnose a bad converter on a turbo car making 1000ish HP...and I've only had to diagnose a few converter failures but they were sprag units so it was cake once we got into it.

If it passes the stall speed test then the only thing left go ahead and get a new updated converter for this setup. Maybe you've just outgrown this one...like you said, it is a race car!

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post #17 of 41 Old 02-23-2016, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
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pro torque is hands down the best converter for a turbo car... but you will need a bypass valve for the trans
I'd second this. ProTorque units are in some of the really fast turbo converter cars. It's what I'm going with in my build as well.

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post #18 of 41 Old 02-24-2016, 08:21 AM Thread Starter
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This might have been a combination of errors. When they made a new down pipe they had to disconnect things. The downpipe's O2 was just barely plugged in and #2 plug wire had the boot over the plug but was an inch from being pushed down.

I'm going over everything now.


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post #19 of 41 Old 02-25-2016, 07:55 AM
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Hopefully you solve it then. Your issues led me to believe you were blowing through the converter also. My buddys car ran great with his old converter but he did some tuning and added an extra 100+ hp and just started blowing through the converter so he had Lane at PTC make him a new one. It made the car feel incredible. We were pretty much told that at that level, any time you make a significant change to the car, whether gearing, horsepower, etc., it will require a new converter to be at 100%. At $1200 that can get pricey!
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Hopefully you solve it then. Your issues led me to believe you were blowing through the converter also. My buddys car ran great with his old converter but he did some tuning and added an extra 100+ hp and just started blowing through the converter so he had Lane at PTC make him a new one. It made the car feel incredible. We were pretty much told that at that level, any time you make a significant change to the car, whether gearing, horsepower, etc., it will require a new converter to be at 100%. At $1200 that can get pricey!
I am blowing through the converter, and I was not getting a good start on the data log. The log was starting after I left the line. For some reason the Holley stops logging during spool, even though the Holley is handling functions OK. The spark looks properly timed on a scope when spooling, but the Holley just does not do any data. The boost I thought I had and RPM I thought I had was actually happening almost 1 second after I had started rolling.

I came to that conclusion because I was not flooring it until the stage lights came on, and it takes 2.5 seconds to spool to full boost without using any RPM limiter. So with a protree and the light I cut, I thought the data start was 1.5 -2 seconds later than it was.

I turned the RPM limit off and pulled against the converter. It appears, although the logging is unreliable, at 15 psi I get 5000-5500 stall.

At 24 psi the converter is at 6300 RPM. I shift at 7400. I think that is too close. Is 6300 stall against the transbrake too close for an engine shifted at 7400?

To get an accurate reading at lower boost, I need to turn my wastegate down to 15 psi so the engine sets at stall for a second.

I think my ET would be better with a better converter, but my car was running high 5's in the 1/8th and coasting through (shut down about the 1000 ft mark) at high 8's in the quarter.

Based on some pulls today, and figuring out what the Holley actually does, I was not actually at good boost until about 1.5-2 seconds after launch.

I think I need to bump in under spool with this turbo. The PT7675 would spool from idle to full boost in about 1.1 seconds. This turbo takes 2.5 seconds.


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post #21 of 41 Old 02-26-2016, 08:05 AM
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I understand your response and just wanted to also mention that while you're blowing through the converter, it won't build full boost quickly because the engine can't load well against the converter. Another thing that happened when we swapped converters was my buddies car building more boost overall, and also building boost instantly.

That turbo may inherently take a little longer to spool because of it's hotside size or something but you can definitely get it acting better with the converter and in my opinion, yes it is flashing too close to your shift point. does the RPM drop as much during your runs as it used to with lower power? Our car didn't really drop RPM as much after adding in power. almost sounded as if it wasn't "locking" in to each gear, if that makes any sense.
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post #22 of 41 Old 02-26-2016, 12:06 PM
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If/When you pull off the converter, you will be able to look inside and see if the fins have been flattened. Its a "typical" problem, usually caused in the burn out box by guys holding the brakes and letting the car "catch" instead of rolling out of the burn out.

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post #23 of 41 Old 03-02-2016, 01:06 PM
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Any updates?

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post #24 of 41 Old 03-03-2016, 11:06 PM Thread Starter
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Any updates?
Yes. I had ignition issues, plus when they welded the downpipe a nut that held a ground was removed, and just the bolt was in the hole. It's a day and night difference.

I dynoed it today. It pulled over 1200 RWHP today at 23 psi. Almost flat power from 6000-7500 but the crank trigger sensor hit the wheel at 7500 so the dyno got cut short. It went from like 1210 to 1240 bumping timing 1 degree, but it stopped abruptly when the sensor hit the trigger wheel.

That pull was through full exhaust with dumps at the back axle.

It stalls at 6400 or so now. I shift at 7500. Do you think the converter is too loose? It moves the dyno roller pretty good, but power curve is so flat I could probably tighten up 6K. The dyno said over 900 at 6K RPM and that was while coming up through the converter. It spooled from idle (1200) to 15 psi in one second as it hit 5300 RPM, so that isn't so bad.

How do you pick a converter from a dyno pull when the converter is too loose? Could a converter company look at the dyno, even with a loose converter?


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post #25 of 41 Old 03-04-2016, 10:59 AM
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Yes. I had ignition issues, plus when they welded the downpipe a nut that held a ground was removed, and just the bolt was in the hole. It's a day and night difference.

I dynoed it today. It pulled over 1200 RWHP today at 23 psi. Almost flat power from 6000-7500 but the crank trigger sensor hit the wheel at 7500 so the dyno got cut short. It went from like 1210 to 1240 bumping timing 1 degree, but it stopped abruptly when the sensor hit the trigger wheel.

That pull was through full exhaust with dumps at the back axle.

It stalls at 6400 or so now. I shift at 7500. Do you think the converter is too loose? It moves the dyno roller pretty good, but power curve is so flat I could probably tighten up 6K. The dyno said over 900 at 6K RPM and that was while coming up through the converter. It spooled from idle (1200) to 15 psi in one second as it hit 5300 RPM, so that isn't so bad.

How do you pick a converter from a dyno pull when the converter is too loose? Could a converter company look at the dyno, even with a loose converter?
Man! You got that thing rocking now! 1200 to the tire should get you in the 5 teens for sure if it hooks up! Nice! I'm glad you got it sorted out. 1200 to the tire at 23psi? And sounds like you still have some left in it with it picking up power with a 1 degree timing bump.

As far as the converter goes, yeah the converter builder will ask for your peak torque and hp RPM, and decide the stall from there. The way I understand it is you want your stall RPM to be close to peak torque, and that keeps you in your powerband after the shift.
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post #26 of 41 Old 03-04-2016, 02:00 PM
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That's got to be saucy to drive on the street.

Real life goals for me now. Last we got to play with mine we only squeezed 9 pounds and 600 at the wheels before we lost clutch holding power. Hopefully I can get near a 4 digit pull with 18 ish pounds of boost and above 7k rpms.

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post #27 of 41 Old 03-04-2016, 02:56 PM
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any idea why the crank trigger touched down??

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Man! You got that thing rocking now! 1200 to the tire should get you in the 5 teens for sure if it hooks up! Nice! I'm glad you got it sorted out. 1200 to the tire at 23psi? And sounds like you still have some left in it with it picking up power with a 1 degree timing bump.

As far as the converter goes, yeah the converter builder will ask for your peak torque and hp RPM, and decide the stall from there. The way I understand it is you want your stall RPM to be close to peak torque, and that keeps you in your powerband after the shift.
Thanks. Yes, it really rocks. The dyno guy and person who built the turbo were trying to talk me into trying a 30 pound spring, but I think I am pushing the Eagle crank and rods as it is. I'm thinking of adding a boost controller now. The HP curve was really flat out to where the trigger hit the wheel.

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That's got to be saucy to drive on the street.

Real life goals for me now. Last we got to play with mine we only squeezed 9 pounds and 600 at the wheels before we lost clutch holding power. Hopefully I can get near a 4 digit pull with 18 ish pounds of boost and above 7k rpms.
I'm unsure of how this will act. It was just so smooth with the PT7675CEA it hardly felt fast. It was at 5.4's 1/8th and 1.2's 60 with the PT7675CEA. This is with a 33 spline wavetrac posi and 4 lugs.

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any idea why the crank trigger touched down??
I think the instruction that came with the kit were wrong. The kit instructions said to adjust the sensor to 0.015 to 0.030 from the wheel, the closer the better. Researching this, Holley says 0.040 to 0.080 from the wheel.

If I had listened to Holley and set the sensor at .040, it probably never would have kissed the wheel. I'm thinking the external balance at 7500, along with vibration and crank flexing at ~1350-1400 with that cheap crank, plus maybe the alternator belt and crank pulley vibrating, was enough to wiggle the outside of the balancer .030 or so.

Since everything is still tight and back to .030 clearance (.028 at the closest run out like it was), I'd say the outside of the dampener is just moving that much. This has to be a lot of stress bending and shaking on the crank.


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89 LX. 363, single turbo, Super Vic EFI, TFS high port heads by TEA, solid roller, glide. Holley HP EFI. (exact combo varies)
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post #29 of 41 Old 03-04-2016, 09:40 PM
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I think the instruction that came with the kit were wrong. The kit instructions said to adjust the sensor to 0.015 to 0.030 from the wheel, the closer the better. Researching this, Holley says 0.040 to 0.080 from the wheel.

If I had listened to Holley and set the sensor at .040, it probably never would have kissed the wheel. I'm thinking the external balance at 7500, along with vibration and crank flexing at ~1350-1400 with that cheap crank, plus maybe the alternator belt and crank pulley vibrating, was enough to wiggle the outside of the balancer .030 or so.

Since everything is still tight and back to .030 clearance (.028 at the closest run out like it was), I'd say the outside of the dampener is just moving that much. This has to be a lot of stress bending and shaking on the crank.
I need to check mine now. I set it per the kit's instructions.

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Little 750rwhp at 6,000rpms and only 10lbs of boost before we just got tired of playing with clutches. New 4R70W and we are turning it up. Expecting 1,000rwhp.
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I need to check mine now. I set it per the kit's instructions.
Keep in mind mine was set at .030, and only touched at 6000 or more. My Eagle crank is being hammered pretty hard, so I imagine there is a bit of flexing and shaking going on. I can't say when it first touched, but it ruined the sensor at 7500.

Still, if Holley says their sensor should be at .040 to .080, it would be wiser to follow their advice. They made the sensor, know how it works, and probably have more field experience with things like this. Had I been at .040 it never would have touched, so I'm likely going to use MID suggested range and set it at .060.


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post #31 of 41 Old 03-05-2016, 01:57 PM
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Keep in mind mine was set at .030, and only touched at 6000 or more. My Eagle crank is being hammered pretty hard, so I imagine there is a bit of flexing and shaking going on. I can't say when it first touched, but it ruined the sensor at 7500.

Still, if Holley says their sensor should be at .040 to .080, it would be wiser to follow their advice. They made the sensor, know how it works, and probably have more field experience with things like this. Had I been at .040 it never would have touched, so I'm likely going to use mod suggested range and set it at .060.
I think mine is .026" and I checked it at 360, 90, 180, 270.

Dart 348ci, Ed Curtis cam/valvetrain, Precision 76mm, Holley Dominator EFI, CNP ignition, tons of Holler EFI small parts, 4"dp, 4R70W w/T-brake, new suspension coming soon.

Little 750rwhp at 6,000rpms and only 10lbs of boost before we just got tired of playing with clutches. New 4R70W and we are turning it up. Expecting 1,000rwhp.
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I think mine is .026" and I checked it at 360, 90, 180, 270.
My wheel would smack the crap out of the sensor at 0.026

I'm pretty sure it would miss at .040, but I'm going to try .060 If the trigger is reliable, since that is the middle of Holley's suggested range, I'm staying with that figure.


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post #33 of 41 Old 03-07-2016, 08:18 AM
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we run it at .060 and its stable all the way to 9800
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I dynoed it today. It pulled over 1200 RWHP today at 23 psi. Almost flat power from 6000-7500 but the crank trigger sensor hit the wheel at 7500 so the dyno got cut short. It went from like 1210 to 1240 bumping timing 1 degree, but it stopped abruptly when the sensor hit the trigger wheel.

That pull was through full exhaust with dumps at the back axle.
Bud, that's a LOT of sugar cubes for those ponies!

ks
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Sounds like it's working out. The converter companies can look at the dyno graph and will want to know your shift RPM, Launch RPM, weight, and maybe some other info in order to send you a winner. Lane @ PTC is wicked and Protorque is supposedly doing really well in the turbo game too. Glad things are looking good!
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