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post #1 of 59 Old 10-29-2015, 06:52 PM Thread Starter
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Dyno Day Results

Just finished making dyno pulls on the car today. To be honest the day was a little disappointing but overall there appears to be some left on the table if we can add more timing. Running 91oct and 100% Meth Injection and boost at 25psi the most timing we can have is 8*. Any more than this the knock detector was showing KR and would pull timing. We added 2* and made 30hp but there was knock so we dropped the timing back down.

So here are the Key Factors:
Dyno: Mustang Dyno
Boost: 25psi
Timing: 8* Total
Fuel: 91oct and 100% Meth:
Transmission: 4R70 with converter lockup.
Exhaust: 2.5" full length

=735hp

Before the end of the year we're going to use race fuel and meth then see how much HP we can get with just more timing. With just more timing we think we can get over 800hp @25psi then we can start cranking the boost up and see where the HP goes. So the 735 is a bit depressing even tho that's through the 4r70 but if we can get over 800hp with just more timing then adding boost should make some solid numbers.

ENGINE:
2V stroked to 5.1 liters 03/04 Cobra Block
Ported PI heads (p&p by HPP) The heads are ported and polished by Houston Performance.
Houston Performance Stage III Billet turbo cams.
Ported Victor Junior intake.
Intake has a 6061.com elbow and a 90mm TB.
HPX Slot style MAF

TRANSMISSION:
4R70w W/ 3000 stall Lockup and Baumann Controller.

FUEL SYSTEM:
Dual GT Supercar fuel pumps
Dual fuel delivery modules and KB boost a pump.
All braided fuel line.

TURBO KIT:
Twin 60mm Billet turbos t3/t4 .63ar.
2.5" full length exhaust with Ultra Flow muffs.



ks



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post #2 of 59 Old 10-29-2015, 07:14 PM
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You should be proud of your build and the numbers man. That is some serious power through an auto. Do you happen to have any pictures of the backside of your plenum? Did you relocate the IAC and ports to the rear? Congrats again


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post #3 of 59 Old 10-29-2015, 07:28 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks. I'm trying to be happy about it and just knowing that we can only run 8* of timing shows that there is a lot more power to me made. The car was purchased with a manual trans and a tune that made 720/720 @ 20psi on 93oct and a Dynojet dyno. We used this tune as-is as a baseline to compare results and to see the difference the auto trans made. The car baselined with this tune at [email protected] So we made a lot of progress getting the car back up to 730hp especially with 8* of timing and through the 4r70.

I have more pics on my website below. My plenum has the IAC ports on the front side but I relocated it to the passenger fender and covered the front of the plenum with a custom plate. You can see more of it on the website. If you need any info just let me know.

Project BALROG

ks


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post #4 of 59 Old 10-29-2015, 10:02 PM
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Kevin:

Have you looked at inter-cooler spray kits?
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post #5 of 59 Old 10-29-2015, 10:09 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John at J&S View Post
Kevin:

Have you looked at inter-cooler spray kits?
Naa... I would prefer to spray more meth. It's clear that I need a second nozzle if I want to make more power with pump gas and meth. We just need more octane to add more timing to do that.

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post #6 of 59 Old 10-29-2015, 10:31 PM
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I did a quick search and one place claims 10C drop in temperature is worth 3% power.

Drop it 30C and you would be at 801.

How long was each pull?

What was the IAT at the start and end of the pull?
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post #7 of 59 Old 10-29-2015, 10:53 PM Thread Starter
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I don't know all the details of what was happening but early on logging the IAT's was eventually turned off b/c the air temps pre-meth were 150ish and the computer was pulling fueling off of this reading which was really messing with the tune. Air temps after the meth were never logged.

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post #8 of 59 Old 10-29-2015, 11:12 PM
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Mine made 656rw with 20psi through a C4 on 93 octane and 100%meth at 18*

ENGINE:
2V .030 stock stroke teksid
Ported PI heads by steen racing
232/230 115lsa cams
Ported hardball'r intake
70mm throttle body
Pro-m 95 MAF

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post #9 of 59 Old 10-29-2015, 11:59 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2k02 View Post
Mine made 656rw with 20psi through a C4 on 93 octane and 100%meth at 18*

ENGINE:
2V .030 stock stroke teksid
Ported PI heads by steen racing
232/230 115lsa cams
Ported hardball'r intake
70mm throttle body
Pro-m 95 MAF
Thanks for chiming in! We wondered what timing others were running. I've read others ran timing from 16-18* so if this is true then we are way off from what we may be able to run with higher octane. On the pulls at 17.5psi the timing was at 13* and made about 650hp but we didn't have the meth flowing a lot to throw a lot of timing at it. We were just getting a feel for the driveability tune and getting the eboost dialed in for the later pulls. It's very clear that it needs more timing. The question remains: how much power can it make with more timing?
If I had more dyno time ($$) it would be interesting to see if we can flow more meth at the lower boost levels then add more timing to see if we could make good power.

ks


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post #10 of 59 Old 10-30-2015, 12:07 AM
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Kevin:

I've seen posts by tuners that say the SCT tools let you adjust timing in each cylinder.

If this is true, then you could use the Vampire's optional knock-finder gauge to show you which cylinders are knocking, then dial it out using the SCT.

Did you get a reading how much 1 retard across all cylinders costs?

Seems like I remember one test where it was about 16 hp, or 2 hp per cylinder per degree.

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post #11 of 59 Old 10-30-2015, 12:24 AM Thread Starter
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Did you get a reading how much 1 retard across all cylinders costs?

Seems like I remember one test where it was about 16 hp, or 2 hp per cylinder per degree.
I'm not using an SCT to tune it.

I've seen too many bad things happen with knock so if there was any knock showing on the gauge he let out not to mention he didn't want to be responsible for hurting the motor so he was playing it safe. For this reason he never did let the knock continue long enough to get a HP measurement. I also had the SG set to pull max timing out of all cylinders except on the very last run where it was set to pull it out of the offending cylinder but HP didn't make a difference.

The knock was only happening above 5500rpm and the very first LED would light up if we had 10* of timing in this area so the knock wasn't too sever. But with 8* no lights were on.

I actually tried calling you this afternoon but no answer. For some reason the HP would fall off around 6000rpm even tho there were no knock lights lit on the gauge. Our thought was maybe the SG was still pulling timing but not enough to light the gauge. We made a daring pull with the SG disconnected but the power still fell off so we plugged it back in.

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post #12 of 59 Old 10-30-2015, 07:47 AM
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Nice looking motor. Are you running stock fuel lines?
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post #13 of 59 Old 10-30-2015, 08:31 AM Thread Starter
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Nice looking motor. Are you running stock fuel lines?
Thanks. The fuel rails are modified Edlebrock units.

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post #14 of 59 Old 10-30-2015, 11:51 AM
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I wonder if you maxed out the stock fuel lines.
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post #15 of 59 Old 10-30-2015, 06:39 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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I wonder if you maxed out the stock fuel lines.
I have never run it with the stock rails so I don't know.

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post #16 of 59 Old 10-30-2015, 10:03 PM
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He was asking about if your running stock fuel "LINES" not rails.


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post #17 of 59 Old 10-30-2015, 11:35 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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He was asking about if your running stock fuel "LINES" not rails.
Sorry.. Duhhh.. That's what happens when you get old.
The fuel line is not stock either. It is -8 line and no return.

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post #18 of 59 Old 10-30-2015, 11:44 PM
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Do you have graphs or data of boost vs rpm vs timing etc..?

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post #19 of 59 Old 10-31-2015, 01:11 AM Thread Starter
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Do you have graphs or data of boost vs rpm vs timing etc..?
Not yet. I will try to get a graph when I pick the car up but I doubt there will be that much detail in it. I'd also like to see the torque it made. There is an issue with the turbos spooling so late which we suspect is the 2.5" hot side being too large for such a small motor. This was something I have planed to remedy over the winter by going to 2 1/8" from the headers to the turbos.
These twin billet 60mm should be all in around 3300rpm but they don't start making boost until 4200-4300 which makes a pretty doggy car until 70mph from a second gear pull.

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post #20 of 59 Old 10-31-2015, 11:51 AM
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Congrats on the power. I'm slowly working mine up to mid 20psi, although it's been a few years Ive gotten it to 18 psi lol.

What are you using to log knock? It seems like something is off with your knock detection. You gained 30rwhp from adding 2* shows it liked the timing. Every time I've experienced knock it lost power.

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6.67 @ 106mph, still tuning...
Displacement is no replacement for boost
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post #21 of 59 Old 10-31-2015, 02:08 PM
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What are your cam specs?

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post #22 of 59 Old 10-31-2015, 04:41 PM Thread Starter
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Congrats on the power. I'm slowly working mine up to mid 20psi, although it's been a few years Ive gotten it to 18 psi lol.

What are you using to log knock? It seems like something is off with your knock detection. You gained 30rwhp from adding 2* shows it liked the timing. Every time I've experienced knock it lost power.
Minimum boost on this car is 17.5psi so it only goes up from there. I have it set to make 35psi if needed to make the power I want.

I'm not "logging" the knock and the system is spot on. I use a Safegaurd Vampire system to monitor each cylinder for knock and if it hears it it will pull timing from that cylinder that is knocking. I have the optional gauge that's equipped with LEDs which indicate the severity of the knock. IMO, this system is a Must Have for anyone running pump gas. Yes, 2* of timing is about 30hp on my car.

https://forums.corral.net/forums/gene...rd-system.html


Quote:
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What are your cam specs?
Unfortunately I don't know the cam specs. They are custom stage 2/ stage 3 turbo cams from HPP Racing and naturally they won't divulge the spec's. I don't think they are real big cams but so far I think they match my overall combo pretty good.


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post #23 of 59 Old 10-31-2015, 04:56 PM
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I'd get new cams before changing your turbo hotside.
What rear gears are you running?

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post #24 of 59 Old 10-31-2015, 07:32 PM Thread Starter
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I'd get new cams before changing your turbo hotside.
What rear gears are you running?
I love the cams so those are staying.
Remember this is a pure street car not a race car and IMO (and others) if a 2.5" hot side can support 1200rwhp in a 360ci motor (or larger) there is no reason that it should be needed for an 800hp motor that is only 280ci. I'll gain a lot by going smaller. It comes down to thinking that each turbo is connected to a 140ci 4cyl engine making 400hp-425hp. A 140ci 4cyl motor doesn't require a 2.5" hot side. Naturally the gamble is whether the smaller tubing will choke it off at the top end but with my combo I doubt it will and I believe the torque will start a lot sooner and be a lot flatter.

Edit - Food for thought: Grand Nationals (231ci 6cyl) use a 2.25" crossover and all 6 cylinders feed into this size pipe entering one turbo and are well known to loose power (slow down) if using a 2.5" crossover on 750hp cars and less.

But we'll see next year.

The rear gears are 3.27's with a 325/45-17 (28") tire.

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post #25 of 59 Old 11-02-2015, 11:15 PM Thread Starter
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Here's the second to the last dyno run that shows where knock was happening. This run had 10* of total timing above 5500 which is why it was knocking. Once it was dropped to 8* no knock.



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post #26 of 59 Old 11-03-2015, 12:10 AM
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Have you considered possibility that its valve float?

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post #27 of 59 Old 11-03-2015, 07:28 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Have you considered possibility that its valve float?
The knock gauge lit up on that run. It ran clean when we changed timing to 8*.

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post #28 of 59 Old 11-03-2015, 07:53 AM
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Do you have the graph from a clean run?

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post #29 of 59 Old 11-03-2015, 08:32 AM Thread Starter
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Do you have the graph from a clean run?
Ya know I don't. I'm not into graphs so I never thought about getting the good one since I'll be taking it back to see what it will do with race fuel.
Just imagine w squiggly line going up where that one starts to go down..

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post #30 of 59 Old 11-03-2015, 07:23 PM
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Just imagine w squiggly line going up where that one starts to go down..

ks
Well, if that squiggly line had went up where it went down....You would've posted higher numbers?
https://forums.corral.net/forums/14502809-post29.html

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post #31 of 59 Old 11-03-2015, 08:53 PM Thread Starter
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Well, if that squiggly line had went up where it went down....You would've posted higher numbers?
https://forums.corral.net/forums/14502809-post29.html
Funny!
Currently the hot side is 2.5" but it's going to change this winter to something smaller. I'm thinking 2 1/8" right now but I'm going to do some research to see what some 4cyl cars are using and the HP made. Also going with CG forward facing units.

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post #32 of 59 Old 11-05-2015, 05:59 PM
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Have you considered running E85?
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post #33 of 59 Old 11-05-2015, 08:05 PM Thread Starter
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Have you considered running E85?
Yep, and I won't.

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post #34 of 59 Old 11-06-2015, 11:44 PM
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Very nice, congrats Kevin!

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post #35 of 59 Old 11-07-2015, 08:05 AM Thread Starter
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Very nice, congrats Kevin!

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Hey, look who's back! Thank You!

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Good day for Stangs at dyno! JOHN2000GT GT & SOHC 23 12-11-2001 11:56 PM

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