What would make for a funner set up? - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
 
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post #1 of 24 Old 10-22-2012, 08:24 PM Thread Starter
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What would make for a funner set up?

Just going off of grin factor which set up would wear your cheeks out more, gen 1 ON3 kit with higher boost or the forward facing kit on lower boost?

I ask because I wonder if the added price is worth it for the forward facing kit. A person could adjust the boost up on the gen1 kit to make the same peak numbers.

It would be going on a stock bottom end PI, ported heads, 75mm t/b and ported plenum, stock valvetrain, Borla catback. TR3650, 3.73, 245/45/17s

Ive also read of guys having less issues running the stock logs as opposed to the fabbed up forward facing shorties.


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post #2 of 24 Old 10-22-2012, 08:56 PM
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the extra cost is more than worth it for the forward facing kit. But with a stock block your going to be limited to about 8psi or 425whp. Ive not heard of anyone having issues with fabricated headers unless they just arent welded properly or use cheap materials. Tubular headers are what you want for maximum performance. You will make the same peak power on less boost. Man get you a custom kit done. It can be done for very cheap.


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post #3 of 24 Old 10-23-2012, 08:07 AM
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I picked up my first gen kit for under 1k with upgraded intercooler and turbo smart 50 mm pro gate wastegate . So I would find one used to play with on stock block then when you go forged pick up a C&g hot side.

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post #4 of 24 Old 10-23-2012, 06:33 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LS1KILR View Post
You will make the same peak power on less boost.
Thats another thing I thought about. It might actually be funner to see a boost gauge sweeping more. Being that the gen1 kit has to make more boost to see the same power.

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post #5 of 24 Old 10-23-2012, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Floordford View Post
Thats another thing I thought about. It might actually be funner to see a boost gauge sweeping more. Being that the gen1 kit has to make more boost to see the same power.
That makes absolutely no sens. Why not just change the speedo gear so it reads 120 when you only going 50MPH.

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post #6 of 24 Old 10-23-2012, 08:15 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Buds91LX View Post
That makes absolutely no sense. Why not just change the speedo gear so it reads 120 when you only going 50MPH.
Funny story when I went 4R70W to TR3650 the speedo read double. It was fun watching the needle sweep really fast. I knew it was off but it was still fun to cruise at 140mph. Its fixed now but it was good for a grin that week. Just like taking a spin around the block with open headers.

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post #7 of 24 Old 10-23-2012, 09:45 PM
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The fun is when your planted back into the seat. More boost only means your system is inefficient. You'll get used to the boost gauge moving. That will become something you pay very little attention to once you start making big power. At that point your just trying to keep the beast from losing control. Your eyes will be on the road and the boost gauge will only be used to diagnose problems and for tuning purposes

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post #8 of 24 Old 10-24-2012, 02:43 AM
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Originally Posted by LS1KILR View Post
The fun is when your planted back into the seat. More boost only means your system is inefficient. You'll get used to the boost gauge moving. That will become something you pay very little attention to once you start making big power. At that point your just trying to keep the beast from losing control. Your eyes will be on the road and the boost gauge will only be used to diagnose problems and for tuning purposes
True story!!
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post #9 of 24 Old 10-24-2012, 08:24 AM
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If you want to have fun with your car, put a Kenne Bell on it. Turbos can be...... complicated, especially to your wallet

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post #10 of 24 Old 10-24-2012, 06:57 PM
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Fun factor .... QUICKER boost!

The 1st Gen kit is fine. Don't let anybody tell you it won't be a blast to drive. But the 2nd Gen simply spools quicker and cleans up the extra piping all over the place. Once installed on the car ... with a smaller turbo ... I bet you won't tell a difference from 1st to 2nd.


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post #11 of 24 Old 10-26-2012, 02:34 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toxicgt View Post
If you want to have fun with your car, put a Kenne Bell on it. Turbos can be...... complicated, especially to your wallet
Not sure what you mean about complicated but a brand new On3 kit with needed supporting mods I think comes out to about $3,000. Kit, suspension, fuel pump, MAF, injectors. Superchargers can be just as much of a pain to install. And after its in then I dont have to worry about any kind of complications. Just watch and listen for leaks. Id be doing that with a supercharger too.

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post #12 of 24 Old 10-26-2012, 02:49 PM
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You know, I said the same thing too 10 years and $15k ago.....

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post #13 of 24 Old 10-26-2012, 04:08 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by toxicgt View Post
You know, I said the same thing too 10 years and $15k ago.....
10 years ago turbos for Mustangs were a bit more costly. On3 has new kits for $2,000 and another $1,000 is needed for other stuff.

How did you manage to rack up to $15k on a turbo kit? Was that on a built 900hp car? Im just looking to stay under 400hp to the wheels.

Hellion sells an all inclusive kit and its about $5-6k. Thats a bit steep when On3 customers are for the most part fairly happy. Cheap clamps and some header issues is all ive heard bad about On3.

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post #14 of 24 Old 10-26-2012, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Floordford View Post
Not sure what you mean about complicated but a brand new On3 kit with needed supporting mods I think comes out to about $3,000. Kit, suspension, fuel pump, MAF, injectors. Superchargers can be just as much of a pain to install. And after its in then I dont have to worry about any kind of complications. Just watch and listen for leaks. Id be doing that with a supercharger too.
Kenne bell Is a piece of cake to install and very reliable, instant boost and a mountain to torque. Which is fun for the put u bak n the seat factor! IMO I'd say if this is a street car or a daily driver I'd go with the blower.

Plus no oil to leak, no piping to leak, no bov/waste gates to leak or get stuck, less exhaust to get replumbed...etc
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post #15 of 24 Old 10-26-2012, 06:34 PM Thread Starter
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To each his own. Ive driven supercharged cars and the screaming is fun but that wears off. Plus I like the idea of efficiency, which turbos are.

And why are you guys posting in the turbo section trying to get me to go supercharged?

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post #16 of 24 Old 10-26-2012, 07:15 PM
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at this point id also recommend that you go with a supercharger. with a turbo your not going to be able to get it installed right and tuned for $3k, even with an on3 kit. Your going to spend $300 on injectors, $3-400 more on fuel pump, $500 on boost and air/fuel gauges, $1000 on tubular suspension, then youll need an alignment (thats another $100), itll cost you money on supplies installing everything, then you need spark plugs. Youll have to remove the oil pan to get a return fitting welded to it, so add in $50 to change the oil. Youll need to replace all the v band clamps on the entire on3 kit (thats at least $100), Youll need a new MAF meter, HPX slot style is recommended and its around $275 I believe? Then once you finally get eveything on you take it down to get tuned. Hopefully you have a handheld tuner already or thatll be another $400. Get done, pay the guy $400 for tuning. Then fill up $40 in gas and waste it on the way home. Then a little while later your stock bottom end is gonna let go for sure. Thats when you start the rebuild with forged parts ($3K to get it done right). Then you need a bigger fuel system and have to get it tuned again. Theres another $1500. it goes on and on and on. You will easily rack up $15k after awhile. Or you could just put on a kenne bell 9psi kit and be done...

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post #17 of 24 Old 10-26-2012, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Floordford View Post
And why are you guys posting in the turbo section trying to get me to go supercharged?
No offense in any way but probably because they are tired of hearing complaint after complaint about on3 kits and issues. It costs a lot more money to go turbo properly than you think. I doubled my budget then ended up selling the kit at a huge loss. You may get lucky and everything fits and works properly and no issues, but I too took that gamble and lost.

Superchargers as just so much easier to deal with.

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post #18 of 24 Old 10-26-2012, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by LS1KILR View Post
at this point id also recommend that you go with a supercharger. with a turbo your not going to be able to get it installed right and tuned for $3k, even with an on3 kit. Your going to spend $300 on injectors, $3-400 more on fuel pump, $500 on boost and air/fuel gauges, $1000 on tubular suspension, then youll need an alignment (thats another $100), itll cost you money on supplies installing everything, then you need spark plugs. Youll have to remove the oil pan to get a return fitting welded to it, so add in $50 to change the oil. Youll need to replace all the v band clamps on the entire on3 kit (thats at least $100), Youll need a new MAF meter, HPX slot style is recommended and its around $275 I believe? Then once you finally get eveything on you take it down to get tuned. Hopefully you have a handheld tuner already or thatll be another $400. Get done, pay the guy $400 for tuning. Then fill up $40 in gas and waste it on the way home. Then a little while later your stock bottom end is gonna let go for sure. Thats when you start the rebuild with forged parts ($3K to get it done right). Then you need a bigger fuel system and have to get it tuned again. Theres another $1500. it goes on and on and on. You will easily rack up $15k after awhile. Or you could just put on a kenne bell 9psi kit and be done...
You Sir have just summed up my last year haha. That is why I now have a vortech on my car. I do miss the turbo power but every time I took that thing out I had another issue pop up.

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post #19 of 24 Old 10-26-2012, 09:06 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LS1KILR View Post
at this point id also recommend that you go with a supercharger. with a turbo your not going to be able to get it installed right and tuned for $3k, even with an on3 kit. Your going to spend $300 on injectors, $3-400 more on fuel pump, $500 on boost and air/fuel gauges, $1000 on tubular suspension, then youll need an alignment (thats another $100), itll cost you money on supplies installing everything, then you need spark plugs. Youll have to remove the oil pan to get a return fitting welded to it, so add in $50 to change the oil. Youll need to replace all the v band clamps on the entire on3 kit (thats at least $100), Youll need a new MAF meter, HPX slot style is recommended and its around $275 I believe? Then once you finally get eveything on you take it down to get tuned. Hopefully you have a handheld tuner already or thatll be another $400. Get done, pay the guy $400 for tuning. Then fill up $40 in gas and waste it on the way home. Then a little while later your stock bottom end is gonna let go for sure. Thats when you start the rebuild with forged parts ($3K to get it done right). Then you need a bigger fuel system and have to get it tuned again. Theres another $1500. it goes on and on and on. You will easily rack up $15k after awhile. Or you could just put on a kenne bell 9psi kit and be done...
You say-
300: injectors
3-400: fuel pump
500: gauges
1000: suspension
100: alignment
50: oil pan
100: V bands
275?: Slot MAF
400: hand held tuner
400: dyno tune

Less the kit, the extras cost: $3425-3525ish


I think-
300: injectors
100: Aviator fuel pump
100: boost gauge
767: suspension (289 K member, 209 coil over, 269 A arms)
100: alignment
Oil pan was already tapped in prep for a Vortech V2 that never happened
100: V bands
170: PMAS HPX
Already own an Xcal2
400: dyno tune

Less the kit, the extras cost: $2037

So I did undershoot even my own estimate so im glad you brought it all out. But I dont see much after that. There will be some shipping in there to raise it some more.

As for the bottom end letting go. That really could happen just the same with a supercharger and you know it. I planned on not pushing close to the limit of the engine. I really only want to make 400hp to the tire. Which I may be able to do on lower than 9psi due to my Borla cat-back, 75mm t/b, ported and spaced upper plenum and ported heads. And if it lets go ill drop in an 02-05 Explorer PI with an WAP block and drive it till it pops. Explorer PI long blocks are about 1500 at most.

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post #20 of 24 Old 10-26-2012, 11:46 PM
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Just from hearing so many complaints about the on3 setupd
I decided to put together my own parts and have the the piping custom done
Here's my parts list..

Turbonetics 76mm 96ar
Billet wheel ball bearing.1200
Headers. 800
Injectors 350
Turbosart wastegte 350
Turbosmart blowoff valve 275
K member 350
Eboost2 controller 500
Having the custom piping instalation and tuning
Is another 2500.00

That's $6300.00
And that's without upgrading my curren fuel system that's capable of supporting 600rwhp
If I upgrade my fuel system it's another 15-1700 to support up to 1000rwhp
So if u add in the fuel system even on the cheap side
Ur looking at $7800.00 for everything all said and done

That's not including any coating for the headers and piping
Or including the air to air intercooler setup I already have wich cost me $2000.00
So that puts the total in the $10000.00 range...

I mean the jist of it is that u can put a on3 kit on your car and make decent power for less than the $10000.00 its costing me to do it
But the quality of parts and materials will not be there and quality means a lot when u expect this kit to perform under the stress of driving and the stress of mashing the skinny pedal...
Cheaper is better for your wallet
But cheaper is deff not better for your car or your wallet in the future
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post #21 of 24 Old 10-29-2012, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Floordford View Post
10 years ago turbos for Mustangs were a bit more costly. On3 has new kits for $2,000 and another $1,000 is needed for other stuff.

How did you manage to rack up to $15k on a turbo kit? Was that on a built 900hp car? Im just looking to stay under 400hp to the wheels.

Hellion sells an all inclusive kit and its about $5-6k. Thats a bit steep when On3 customers are for the most part fairly happy. Cheap clamps and some header issues is all ive heard bad about On3.
Its never just ONE turbo kit. ONE set of Injectors. ONE engine. See my point? Lie to yourself all you want, you will put some big time coin in a turbo car. There is NO cheap way to turbo a Mustang (Unless you have a turbo LS Fairmont )

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post #22 of 24 Old 10-30-2012, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by toxicgt View Post
Its never just ONE turbo kit. ONE set of Injectors. ONE engine. See my point? Lie to yourself all you want, you will put some big time coin in a turbo car. There is NO cheap way to turbo a Mustang (Unless you have a turbo LS Fairmont )
The same can be said for a blower car With all the bs from belt slipage to upgrading and rebuiding head units. also with having to change pullies to up boost and 8 rib conversions to limit belt slipage. I have personaly gotten 260,000 hard miles out of a garrett turbo before it neeeded to be rebuilt, and reed at work turbos said it only needed seals. I dont think a blower will give you that kind of durabilty.
Op with some carefull shopping you can put a kit together inexpensively but it will take some time to find deals all found in corral classified. I think the main point everybody is saying is don't go into this with blinders on entry level is just that.

here is my list.
first gen on3 kit with upgraded Ic 700
turbosmart pro gate 50 mm wastegate 300
Rc enginering (lucas) 55lbs injectors 140
hpx slot meter,flange and harness 259
04 cobra pumps and hat 120
qa1 kmember and coil over 425
Kb boost a pump 200
total 2144
I could have saved some money by useing the on3 wastgate and not getting boost a pump. I'm going to try thier blow off valve and turbo for now, but will upgrade in near futurer. The fuel system should support high 500 to 600 RWHP.

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post #23 of 24 Old 10-30-2012, 10:22 PM Thread Starter
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So even if im just looking to get 400hp to the ground and thats it, I still need to look at it like im going to be spending $7,000 for turbo related things?

Because honestly its just a cruiser that sees a little highway on ramp fun now and then. And for that 400 is plenty. I dont need the meanest blow off valve or the latest and greatest gauges. Or even ceramic coated pipes. And really ive been hearing about how the entry level turbo from On3 is on the big side if you are boosting a close to stock engine so I was thinking of getting a smaller diameter turbo for better response. I hear Hellion uses a 60-61mm turbo as opposed to On3s 70mm. People have been making better power with the smaller size from what I an see. Close to stock set ups I mean.

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post #24 of 24 Old 10-30-2012, 11:47 PM
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with the hellion 62-1 i made over 530whp/630wtq at 11psi

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