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post #1 of 29 Old 07-17-2012, 03:35 PM Thread Starter
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Why you dont run blower cams on a turbo car!


Green line is stock 4.6 2v longblock, stock HCI, on3 FF kit with 67-70mm turbo, wastegate set to 9 psi

Blue line is my car ported heads, eddy victor jr manifold with hp 292s blower cams with 67mm turbo, set to 9 psi.

Looks like a solid 100+ tq from 3500-4k and nearly 100 rwhp.

My car doesnt come close till about 5500 rpms.

Looks like im throwing stock cams back in.


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post #2 of 29 Old 07-17-2012, 11:00 PM
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You should check out the MHS recession buster cams. I am running the stage ones. No numbers yet but I trapped 123mph so something is right LOL


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post #3 of 29 Old 07-18-2012, 11:59 AM Thread Starter
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Yea, only reason I wanna do stock cams is because I can put them in with the anderson tool without pulling this entire car apart..+ they are cheap and people seem to have amazing results with them anyway, why change.

Im actually making good power right now, just have no mid range power or tq.....


But considering these cams probably arent even efficient top end, I would assume I would gain a ton of mid range as well as make more power top end anyways.

I sure hope that it fixes it.
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post #4 of 29 Old 07-18-2012, 12:13 PM
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The recession buster cams are stock regrinds. You can install them straight up the same way. I degreed mine just to be sure I could squeeze every hp out of them. If you haven't already got.the tool let me know. I ordered one before I decided to degree them. Its still sealed in the box it was shipped in.

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post #5 of 29 Old 07-18-2012, 12:30 PM Thread Starter
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Hmm interesting....

ill keep that in mind, but ill probably just go with stockers and hope it wakes the hell up, ive already got a pretty stout head/intake setup so it should still make power up top.
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post #6 of 29 Old 07-18-2012, 03:46 PM
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IT's a combination of all of your components.

You have an RPM happy combo, which pretty much hurts any combo from idle to 4500 on any mod motor.

You have to pick your poison sometimes. If you had a 4K+ converter and revved to 7K+....the tables would be turned.

Keep in mind...your car would probably respond just as well, by changing the intake manifold back to a PI.

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post #7 of 29 Old 07-18-2012, 03:58 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ModularSpeed View Post
IT's a combination of all of your components.

You have an RPM happy combo, which pretty much hurts any combo from idle to 4500 on any mod motor.

You have to pick your poison sometimes. If you had a 4K+ converter and revved to 7K+....the tables would be turned.

Keep in mind...your car would probably respond just as well, by changing the intake manifold back to a PI.
I considered the intake then I saw this.



Guess what your looking at?

Pi vs edelbrock intake, no changes, same 12 psi of turbo boost.

The issue with that is the turbo I have wouldnt make it to 7k lol...its a 67 so its pretty much done making power around 6k, probably rev it to 6500 at the most.

I hear ya though...my setup should be more of a high RPM setup but it still seems weak mid range to me.

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post #8 of 29 Old 07-18-2012, 05:03 PM
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Are you 100% certain you have no exhaust leaks? My car had a very centri-blower-type powerband like yours when I had some big exhaust leaks. When those were fixed it spooled way sooner and also picked up about 8lbs of boost with no changes to the WG springs.

My car made 696rwtq on a Dynojet at about 4800rpm (spools earlier on the street) with the Edelbrock intake. Here's a dyno sheet. Ignore the hole in the powerband just after it comes on...its spark blowout from too much gap. I went from .032 to .026 and it went away.

This is with the On3 76mm BB turbo with .96 a/r exhaust. It spooled about 500rpm sooner when I had a journal bearing Master Power T70 .68 turbo on it.



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post #9 of 29 Old 07-18-2012, 05:07 PM Thread Starter
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Are you 100% certain you have no exhaust leaks? My car had a very centri-blower-type powerband like yours when I had some big exhaust leaks. When those were fixed it spooled way sooner and also picked up about 8lbs of boost with no changes to the WG springs.
You can see my boost curve layered over the other cars boost curve....my car spooled pretty much exactly the same...other car probably had a 67-70mm with a .81 a/r, I have a .96 a/r which explains the slight difference.

Ive checked all my exhaust side connections many times, does not appear to be any leaks and it spools just fine.
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post #10 of 29 Old 07-18-2012, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by justinschmidt1 View Post
You can see my boost curve layered over the other cars boost curve....my car spooled pretty much exactly the same...other car probably had a 67-70mm with a .81 a/r, I have a .96 a/r which explains the slight difference.

Ive checked all my exhaust side connections many times, does not appear to be any leaks and it spools just fine.
OK just figured I'd check. I know the catback makes a difference on these also...which catback do you have vs the other car? How much ignition timing in both cars?

Also, I've heard that mistimed cams can have a similar effect...? Just trying to think of whatever I can. Your cams are not THAT much different than mine but maybe a little change here and there can make a big difference.


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post #11 of 29 Old 07-18-2012, 05:27 PM
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75mm throttle body and stock intake vs 90mm throttle body and edelbrock.

Turbo 2V.


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post #12 of 29 Old 07-18-2012, 05:30 PM
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Actually it looks like we both have similar boost and tq at 3600rpm as mine is spooling up. Mine has just begun its journey to high boost though, LOL.
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post #13 of 29 Old 07-18-2012, 05:53 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ModularSpeed View Post


75mm throttle body and stock intake vs 90mm throttle body and edelbrock.

Turbo 2V.

The higher hp is edelbrock intake right?

Can we have the full setup as well.

I wish the Turbo was keeping the boost the same down low...that was probably the only reason we are seeing the loss down low. do you have one with rpm?

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post #14 of 29 Old 07-18-2012, 06:04 PM Thread Starter
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Actually it looks like we both have similar boost and tq at 3600rpm as mine is spooling up. Mine has just begun its journey to high boost though, LOL.


I'm probably only gonna be able to run 15-16 psi on pump gas though....lol
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post #15 of 29 Old 07-18-2012, 10:23 PM Thread Starter
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Are you 100% certain you have no exhaust leaks? My car had a very centri-blower-type powerband like yours when I had some big exhaust leaks. When those were fixed it spooled way sooner and also picked up about 8lbs of boost with no changes to the WG springs.

My car made 696rwtq on a Dynojet at about 4800rpm (spools earlier on the street) with the Edelbrock intake. Here's a dyno sheet. Ignore the hole in the powerband just after it comes on...its spark blowout from too much gap. I went from .032 to .026 and it went away.

This is with the On3 76mm BB turbo with .96 a/r exhaust. It spooled about 500rpm sooner when I had a journal bearing Master Power T70 .68 turbo on it.


Just saw you added the chart and stuff---- do you have any other ones with the smaller turbo and lower boost maybe? It still seems like your torque is better...my torque is lower than power which is weird with a turbo car I think. My turbo wouldn't be spooling at 3500 if I had leaks is all I'm saying. I had leaks the first time and didn't see 8 psi till like 4500 rpms.

Idk maybe I should just crank the boost up and hope for the best. Still seems really weak in power to me.

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post #16 of 29 Old 07-19-2012, 11:21 AM
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It is a 302 stroker turbo 2V. Pretty sure it has n/a cams....but I do not recall.

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post #17 of 29 Old 07-19-2012, 01:03 PM Thread Starter
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It is a 302 stroker turbo 2V. Pretty sure it has n/a cams....but I do not recall.


Hmm yea, I mean comparing that to the stock PI cams, it looks like the stock PI cams outperform that car mid range as well, just he is running so much more boost on that car that it makes up for it wen the boost is 20 psi vs 9 psi.

at 3.5k it looks like the car you posted is making around 240 rwhp and 350 tq,

the pi car I have is making nearly 500 ft lb of tq, and 320 rwhp.

By 4k the PI cams are making 500 ft lbs tq still and about 380 rwhp

the car you posted looks like its making 450 ft lb and closer to 350 rwhp

The comparison isnt really valid after that when the car you posted is spiking to 23 psi and my dyno sheet is based off 9 psi lol.


Idk, I just think the pi cams will shift my power band to the left more and give me a big jump in mid range power/ tq hopefully.

I dont want to have to shift my car at 7k to use the power, especially with the 4r70w, these transmissions dont really like going much above 6500 from what ive read.
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post #18 of 29 Old 07-19-2012, 01:27 PM
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I understand that, but look at the boost curve from 0 to 9 PSI.....

That is my point, regardless of fuel, power, boost level, driver name, and build date. Same intakes that we are conversing about.

I just wanted to show you how much better a longer runner intake works with a turbo, especially a larg(er) turbo.

If you want to nit pick....well my view of your comparisons.... Check out that silly (bad) TQ curve:



From 4 to 6K RPM....it loses 170 ft lbs.

So, I think a PI intake and cams is a better choice than stock cams and a short runner. This is going to hold true on any modular turbo combo, for street/strip use, is you want a good performing mid range.

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post #19 of 29 Old 07-19-2012, 01:43 PM
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Also, it appears to me that the red power curve that you posted, may have had some timing issues.

Can you get A/F read out for the red curve?

On my combo, I made 460 rwhp on 8psi....11 degrees peak timing. (11.2 A/F)

I made 497 on the same 8 PSI...with about 3 degrees more timing. (11.2 A/F)

When we leaned it to 11.5ish....it made the same 497 one-thousand RPM sooner, before it ran out of fuel.... so it was well on its way to 520+

That is....going from 11.2 to 11.5.....and from 11 degrees to 14....on 8 PSI....

My point being, I have a hard time believing comparisons when everything is not laid out on the table.

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post #20 of 29 Old 07-19-2012, 02:32 PM Thread Starter
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I understand that, but look at the boost curve from 0 to 9 PSI.....

That is my point, regardless of fuel, power, boost level, driver name, and build date. Same intakes that we are conversing about.

I just wanted to show you how much better a longer runner intake works with a turbo, especially a larg(er) turbo.

If you want to nit pick....well my view of your comparisons.... Check out that silly (bad) TQ curve:



From 4 to 6K RPM....it loses 170 ft lbs.

So, I think a PI intake and cams is a better choice than stock cams and a short runner. This is going to hold true on any modular turbo combo, for street/strip use, is you want a good performing mid range.
That is true, but at the same time he has stock heads and a 62 MM compressor that is most likely the biggest reason for it falling off at high rpms.

When I had stock Cams and heads and a eddy manifold with a vortech my car was still making more power at 6500 rpms for example but that was still very much in the compressors efficiency range as it peaked around 14-15 psi.

What im hoping is that the manifold, bigger turbo, and ported heads will carry the power to 6k or more.

Also, I think your looking at it wrong, yes, the torque fell big time from 4-6k, but its also making 520 ft lb at 4k.....yes, it may have dipped down below 400 by 6k but lets take a look at my dyno with similar power.

On my 9 psi dyno with 470 rwhp peak:
Im making all of 370 ft lb of tq at 4k and eventually peak at only 435 tq, falling back to around 370 by 6k as well.

So let me put it this way, would you rather have your power peake at 435 tq and hit 370 tq by 6k, or would you rather have your tq peake at 520 and fall back to 370 tq at 6k?

You see my point?

Im making no more tq than that car at 6k yet he has 100 tq advantage on me in the mid range.
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post #21 of 29 Old 07-19-2012, 02:33 PM Thread Starter
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Also, it appears to me that the red power curve that you posted, may have had some timing issues.

Can you get A/F read out for the red curve?

On my combo, I made 460 rwhp on 8psi....11 degrees peak timing. (11.2 A/F)

I made 497 on the same 8 PSI...with about 3 degrees more timing. (11.2 A/F)

When we leaned it to 11.5ish....it made the same 497 one-thousand RPM sooner, before it ran out of fuel.... so it was well on its way to 520+

That is....going from 11.2 to 11.5.....and from 11 degrees to 14....on 8 PSI....

My point being, I have a hard time believing comparisons when everything is not laid out on the table.

From what he told me there was NO changes made to the car.

He threw the edelbrock manifold on it, same tune, same timing, and that was the result.
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post #22 of 29 Old 07-19-2012, 04:34 PM
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I see your point, but think you are looking at it wrong, simply because you are using theory.

Unfortunately, you cannot base your point on two completely different combos.

To answer you, I would rather settle in the middle of the "peak" and have a little less peak and have more at 6K. This will be the result of a cammed combo with PI intake.

You made 370rwtq at 6K? My eyes are showing it to be in the 410 range....

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post #23 of 29 Old 07-19-2012, 04:46 PM
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All I am saying, is my opinion, which is a pretty good one.

Any modular engine on this planet, will be a better street performer with the following:

Ported Heads
Stock Intake
Cams

Than:

Ported Heads
Stock Cams
Short Runner Intake

....assuming it has the appropriate rear gear, and supporting modifications.

Also, assuming the cams are not ungodly large in duration.

This will hold true for N/A, SC, Nitrous, or Turbo.

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post #24 of 29 Old 07-19-2012, 05:04 PM Thread Starter
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I see your point, but think you are looking at it wrong, simply because you are using theory.

Unfortunately, you cannot base your point on two completely different combos.

To answer you, I would rather settle in the middle of the "peak" and have a little less peak and have more at 6K. This will be the result of a cammed combo with PI intake.

You made 370rwtq at 6K? My eyes are showing it to be in the 410 range....
Your right, I was looking at the wrong graph.

I understand but I think its a good comparison...same tuner, dyno, motors, same turbo kit, same size turbo, same boost.

And you may be right about the intake, but at this point im not going back to a PI intake, can you even use aftermarket rails on a PI intake?

I think cams are more of a factor on a turbo car than an intake manifold and I can pretty much spend no money putting stock PI cams on the car after selling my blower cams so I think its my best option for me at this point.

My cams have a duration of 292/292 so they are a pretty ungodly large duration in my eyes lol.

If it doesnt work out so be it....
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post #25 of 29 Old 07-19-2012, 07:55 PM
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the cams arent really that bad of a cam.
Are they ideal for a turbo car? no! but will they work? Yes! All personal Preference .


The specs per Houston Performance: 228/[email protected] 531/531lift 114lsa.

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post #26 of 29 Old 07-19-2012, 08:09 PM Thread Starter
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the cams arent really that bad of a cam.
Are they ideal for a turbo car? no! but will they work? Yes! All personal Preference .


The specs per Houston Performance: 228/[email protected] 531/531lift 114lsa.

Yea i don't know but my ca seems to.make crappy.power lol

Just seems like the best place to start

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post #27 of 29 Old 07-19-2012, 09:33 PM
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No way they are [email protected]

I like the Eddy intake....but I prefer it with decent compression of course, if using with a poweradder. For N/A....it is awesome, assuming gear and RPM are there.

What is your compression?

FWIW, low(er) compression and short runners in combination, are one of the biggest "no no's" for a street friendly turbo modular engine.

Your situation is a very common one in the 4V world too. People take a stock Cobra (03-04) and put a Sullivan intake on it....and it is HORRIBLE for spooling and average power. It will peak high, but thats about it. A stock n/a 4V intake (Cobra/Mach).....will kick the piss out of a Sullivan intake throughout the entire curve, except 6000+

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post #28 of 29 Old 07-19-2012, 11:13 PM
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No way they are [email protected]

I like the Eddy intake....but I prefer it with decent compression of course, if using with a poweradder. For N/A....it is awesome, assuming gear and RPM are there.

What is your compression?

FWIW, low(er) compression and short runners in combination, are one of the biggest "no no's" for a street friendly turbo modular engine.

Your situation is a very common one in the 4V world too. People take a stock Cobra (03-04) and put a Sullivan intake on it....and it is HORRIBLE for spooling and average power. It will peak high, but thats about it. A stock n/a 4V intake (Cobra/Mach).....will kick the piss out of a Sullivan intake throughout the entire curve, except 6000+
How low of compression are you referring to on the 2V with the eddie intake? Is 9.5 CR too low to you?

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post #29 of 29 Old 07-19-2012, 11:20 PM Thread Starter
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my compression is around 10.2:1
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