AR size vs power/ 1/4 mile times? - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
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post #1 of 57 Old 07-07-2012, 09:39 PM Thread Starter
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AR size vs power/ 1/4 mile times?

I tried searching around but didnt find much data on the topic.

Obviously a smaller AR is going to spool quicker and make more power tq down low and a bigger AR should make more power up top.

The question is, what will be faster?
When I bought my turbo I was sold the bigger .96 a/r so it wouldnt fall off up top.

I did find one comparison which shows a .68 vs a .96 and honestly it seemed like the .68 made way more power and tq mid range with very little loss up top where the .96 made a bit more power.

Anyone have some HARD data?

1/4 mile times?

Dyno sheets?

My car is a street car so im seriously debating whether or not I should drop down to a .81 a/r or even a .68 a/r and how much they might hurt power up top.

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post #2 of 57 Old 07-08-2012, 10:02 AM
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That all depends on your combo, how much hp you want, ci size, and rpms. If you have an engine that spins to 7k, a 70mm with a .68 ar will have major back pressre issues but if you have two of the same on same engine, will support enough to go in the single digits. Turbo size and a/r depends all on your engine and goals.


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post #3 of 57 Old 07-08-2012, 10:26 AM Thread Starter
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stock 4.6 281 cu in

ported heads, eddy victor manifold, and some blower cams.

On the dyno the car peaked HP at about 6200~ RPMS on low boost 8-9 psi so I would probably get away with revving it to 6700 rpms or so with that setup but most likely 6500 rpm shift points would be the norm for me.

I assume the power curve wouldnt change when I turn the boost up but was just entertaining the idea of a smaller AR and since its a street car I really wouldnt have any problems giving up some power up top for a 400-500 rpm quicker spool and a big jump in mid range power....just not sure how much a .81 vs a .96 would help

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post #4 of 57 Old 07-08-2012, 10:45 AM
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The bigger ar. should be fine at the track as long as your shifting a a little after peak power. Letting the rpms not drop below where you dump the clutch.
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post #5 of 57 Old 07-08-2012, 10:52 AM Thread Starter
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I guess I should have added, its an auto, somewhat built 4r70w with a multi disc converter from dirty dog.
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post #6 of 57 Old 07-08-2012, 10:58 AM
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Street car, i say go with a .68, more track than street then keep the .96
I

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post #7 of 57 Old 07-08-2012, 11:45 AM Thread Starter
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yea, I mean its 100% street car....why not the .81?

Such a minimal difference from .96 to .81?
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post #8 of 57 Old 07-10-2012, 01:39 PM
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I would run the .96

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post #9 of 57 Old 07-10-2012, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinschmidt1 View Post
I tried searching around but didnt find much data on the topic.

Obviously a smaller AR is going to spool quicker and make more power tq down low and a bigger AR should make more power up top.

The question is, what will be faster?
When I bought my turbo I was sold the bigger .96 a/r so it wouldnt fall off up top.

I did find one comparison which shows a .68 vs a .96 and honestly it seemed like the .68 made way more power and tq mid range with very little loss up top where the .96 made a bit more power.

Anyone have some HARD data?

1/4 mile times?

Dyno sheets?

My car is a street car so im seriously debating whether or not I should drop down to a .81 a/r or even a .68 a/r and how much they might hurt power up top.
I think what a lot of it boils down to is weather or not you'll go beyond the turbo's efficiency range.... if your power goals are small enough for a .68 to handle theres no benefit in upgrading, keep it small with a quick spool time.

I'm fighting this dilemma myself, people are recommending a .81 or .96 but my motor is a stockish 302, I think I'm gonna try a .68 personally.

I wouldn't mind finding a little more info myself.

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post #10 of 57 Old 07-10-2012, 02:34 PM Thread Starter
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Yea, I guess it depends on your setup and how much boost you plan on running but I would imagine the smaller a/r would be better as long as the turbo is still in its efficiency range up top.


I can't imagine a 96 ar making more power on 7 psi vs a 68


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post #11 of 57 Old 07-10-2012, 03:59 PM
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Then try to imagine more...

Much more to worry about than this vs that at 7psi (blanket statements). Exhaust port flow, header diameter, turbine, and downpipe have to be dealt with also for the whole package to work. Not to mention the all important cylinder head and camshaft choices.

Also on a street car I dont like smaller a/r's...quicker spool = more spin usually.

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post #12 of 57 Old 07-10-2012, 04:35 PM
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Then try to imagine more...

Much more to worry about than this vs that at 7psi (blanket statements). Exhaust port flow, header diameter, turbine, and downpipe have to be dealt with also for the whole package to work. Not to mention the all important cylinder head and camshaft choices.

Also on a street car I dont like smaller a/r's...quicker spool = more spin usually.
Don't mean to hi-jack, but do you guys think a GT45 76mm with a .96 would spool before like 4k on a stock headed 302?

I have plans to go 351, etc. down the road... buying a turbo once would be cool.

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post #13 of 57 Old 07-10-2012, 04:40 PM
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I like my 1.1 ar for the street lol

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post #14 of 57 Old 07-10-2012, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by MJs89GT View Post
Don't mean to hi-jack, but do you guys think a GT45 76mm with a .96 would spool before like 4k on a stock headed 302?

I have plans to go 351, etc. down the road... buying a turbo once would be cool.
What turbine wheel?

What trans? What converter, who is doing the tune up?

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post #15 of 57 Old 07-10-2012, 04:47 PM
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I like my 1.1 ar for the street lol
If they made something bigger than .96 for mine I'd be all over it

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post #16 of 57 Old 07-10-2012, 05:19 PM Thread Starter
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lol, why not just get a bigger turbo?
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post #17 of 57 Old 07-10-2012, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by 4Jenna View Post
What turbine wheel?

What trans? What converter, who is doing the tune up?
He is watching his daughter but this is the GT45 turbo he was looking at.


Compressor Size: Inlet = 4 3/16", Inducer = 68.7MM, Exducer = 97.8 MM, Trim = 69,A/R = 0.66, Intake (ID / OD) = 2.25" / 3.25"

Turbine: Outlet = 4", Turbo flange = T4, Downpipe flange = 3.5" V-band, Inducer = 87.4 MM, Exducer = 77 MM,Trim = 92, A/R = 1.05



-The 0.68 AR GT45 specs are:
4" Inlet Diameter
3 1/2" V-Band Outlet
Wet Floating Bearing Type
T4 Flange
Oil Cooled
Inlet: M10*1.5, Outlet: 2 M8
Max Power Rating: 650HP

Compressor Wheel
.70 A/R Cold Side
Ind: 51.99mm
Exd: 81.74mm
Trim: 40

Turbine Wheel
3 1/2 V-Band .68 A/R Hot Side
Ind: 73.42mm
Exd: 57.97mm

Current stock t5 but will be swapped to built auto later. Yes we know the t5 will explode with boost but that's coming!

Mainly just concerned about too big of a turbo for a stock e7 headed 302 with an E cam. For intakes he has gt40ps if it matters.

92 GT Hatch - GT40P, F303, Headers, H-Pipe, 3:55s etc.
271 rwhp 299.8 rwtq

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post #18 of 57 Old 07-10-2012, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by 92GT5.0 View Post
He is watching his daughter but this is the GT45 turbo he was looking at.


Compressor Size: Inlet = 4 3/16", Inducer = 68.7MM, Exducer = 97.8 MM, Trim = 69,A/R = 0.66, Intake (ID / OD) = 2.25" / 3.25"

Turbine: Outlet = 4", Turbo flange = T4, Downpipe flange = 3.5" V-band, Inducer = 87.4 MM, Exducer = 77 MM,Trim = 92, A/R = 1.05



-The 0.68 AR GT45 specs are:
4" Inlet Diameter
3 1/2" V-Band Outlet
Wet Floating Bearing Type
T4 Flange
Oil Cooled
Inlet: M10*1.5, Outlet: 2 M8
Max Power Rating: 650HP

Compressor Wheel
.70 A/R Cold Side
Ind: 51.99mm
Exd: 81.74mm
Trim: 40

Turbine Wheel
3 1/2 V-Band .68 A/R Hot Side
Ind: 73.42mm
Exd: 57.97mm

Current stock t5 but will be swapped to built auto later. Yes we know the t5 will explode with boost but that's coming!

Mainly just concerned about too big of a turbo for a stock e7 headed 302 with an E cam. For intakes he has gt40ps if it matters.
what he said!
guys on turbo forums seem to think a .68 will spool super fast which could be good for the t-5 but i want some top end steam, i'd stop short of 500hp with this motor for sure.

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post #19 of 57 Old 07-10-2012, 10:25 PM
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some food for thought... EGTs

for some reason not lot of people run a EGT gauge and there's LOT to learn from having one

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post #20 of 57 Old 07-10-2012, 10:55 PM
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lol, why not just get a bigger turbo?
If it was only that easy (if that comment was to me)

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post #21 of 57 Old 07-10-2012, 11:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 92GT5.0 View Post
He is watching his daughter but this is the GT45 turbo he was looking at.


Compressor Size: Inlet = 4 3/16", Inducer = 68.7MM, Exducer = 97.8 MM, Trim = 69,A/R = 0.66, Intake (ID / OD) = 2.25" / 3.25"

Turbine: Outlet = 4", Turbo flange = T4, Downpipe flange = 3.5" V-band, Inducer = 87.4 MM, Exducer = 77 MM,Trim = 92, A/R = 1.05



-The 0.68 AR GT45 specs are:
4" Inlet Diameter
3 1/2" V-Band Outlet
Wet Floating Bearing Type
T4 Flange
Oil Cooled
Inlet: M10*1.5, Outlet: 2 M8
Max Power Rating: 650HP

Compressor Wheel
.70 A/R Cold Side
Ind: 51.99mm
Exd: 81.74mm
Trim: 40

Turbine Wheel
3 1/2 V-Band .68 A/R Hot Side
Ind: 73.42mm
Exd: 57.97mm

Current stock t5 but will be swapped to built auto later. Yes we know the t5 will explode with boost but that's coming!

Mainly just concerned about too big of a turbo for a stock e7 headed 302 with an E cam. For intakes he has gt40ps if it matters.
If he plans on upgrading engines later on, then the gt45 will work decent until then. I'm running it on a stock 351 and am in full boost(15lbs) by 3500rpms, so he should get in full boost easily under 4000rpms.
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post #22 of 57 Old 07-10-2012, 11:13 PM
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Who makes that GT45?

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post #23 of 57 Old 07-10-2012, 11:41 PM
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Who makes that GT45?
Both are cheap Chinese ones but I've seen people have good success with them, and given his budget you just can't beat it. I'll post a link to both.

1.05 AR

0.68 AR

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post #24 of 57 Old 07-10-2012, 11:45 PM
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Heck give it a whirl!

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post #25 of 57 Old 07-11-2012, 04:14 PM
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Seems to be alot of confusion. A/R size is critical to performance. You want the smallst a/r possible for the level your at. At 500-700 rwhp there is no need for anything over .68-.71 unless you just like to hurt performance bc your not going to loose anything up top at that level on a 4.6-5.0L engine. The larger ar will just waste exhaust energy.

I fell on this bandwagon initialy and got a cast wheel 6765 with a .96 ar (t4/3"vband). And it was a dog on my 4.6L 3v. Switched to a .81 ar housing and peak boost shifted around 100-200rpms to the left. Did my homework and got the same size turbo 6765 with a billet wheel this time and a .68 ar turbine housing. Even at 650rwhp at 16psi which is the max i pushed these turbo the .68 lost no peak power was within a few hp of the others.

Here is shot of some of my pulls testing the 3 different setups I have had.
12psi runs, ebc duty cycle unchanged.
Blue line is cast 67mm with .96 ar
Green line is cast 67mm with .81 ar
Red line is billet 67mm with .68 ar






This is all on a 65mm turbine wheel. You can actually get away even more with smaller ar's the bigger your turbine wheel is with out loosing any flow up top. The .96 at this level would be okay on a smaller turbine wheel ie 60-62. etc

Im switching to an oil-less turbo next and im doing a 7270 (5mm bigger on each wheel) with .68 and going for 700-750rwhp at 20psi.

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post #26 of 57 Old 07-11-2012, 04:28 PM
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Being as close as you can to 1:1 makes the power, each combo is diff. Small a/rs do not help this.

I just noticed you guys only go to 6000rpm on a few of those runs, I fig'd those motors went higher. RPM also plays a big role, more rpm a larger a/r would help also. Tune ups basically the same and weather conditions on those runs?

I'm not trying to be biased, I don't know 2v, 3v, or 4v stuff very well haha. Just talking turbo basics. Not everyone want the type of power I want either. I say try the .68, do back to back testing if possible and report back.

Be a good test!

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post #27 of 57 Old 07-11-2012, 04:35 PM Thread Starter
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Jeez looking at your dyno sheets makes me want to put a .68 a/r on my Turbo. I see no loss of power up top and way more mid range and wayyyy faster spool

Looks like you saw 10 psi @ 3700 rpms with the 68 vs 10 psi at 4500 rpms with the 96.

You could use one of those ebc with the ability to compensate for boost dropping.

You drop to nearly 10 psi by 6k

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post #28 of 57 Old 07-11-2012, 06:53 PM Thread Starter
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My car peaked at about 6200 on the dyno...might see 6500 shift points but it doesn't look like he was nosing over at all on his sheets.


Looks like it went to 6400 or so with the. 81 and no signs of falling
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post #29 of 57 Old 07-11-2012, 09:43 PM
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More to consider than ar. I'd go with a smaller ar with a big ex wheel, and big ar on smaller ex wheel. I run a .63 t3 and it hits hard and pulls hard to redline. Made 504 on 16psi and power did not drop off any before the cam was done at 6100rpm.

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post #30 of 57 Old 07-11-2012, 09:50 PM Thread Starter
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More to consider than ar. I'd go with a smaller ar with a big ex wheel, and big ar on smaller ex wheel. I run a .63 t3 and it hits hard and pulls hard to redline. Made 504 on 16psi and power did not drop off any before the cam was done at 6100rpm.
Motor specs would be helpful....lol

Is that on the 3.9?

Just out of curiosity, do you have power numbers on lower boost?
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post #31 of 57 Old 07-11-2012, 10:34 PM
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My car peaked at about 6200 on the dyno...might see 6500 shift points but it doesn't look like he was nosing over at all on his sheets.


Looks like it went to 6400 or so with the. 81 and no signs of falling
Yeah I seen the graph, and never mentioned falling off. Just said he wasnt turning much rpm. Woulda been nice to see all to same rpm also since the graphs overlay.

I thought mod motors turned more rpm also.

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post #32 of 57 Old 07-11-2012, 10:57 PM Thread Starter
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Depends. 4v mod.motors do typically turn closer to 7k. 2vs not so much. Even with ported heads Cams and edelbrock manifold looks like my car started to nose over at 6200

Really no point in taking them much higher than 6500 or so...most people probably shift around 6k though
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post #33 of 57 Old 07-12-2012, 12:39 AM
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Quote:
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Depends. 4v mod.motors do typically turn closer to 7k. 2vs not so much. Even with ported heads Cams and edelbrock manifold looks like my car started to nose over at 6200

Really no point in taking them much higher than 6500 or so...most people probably shift around 6k though
Hopefully my car will pull to 7,500rpms without falling out, i am going with a .96AR knowing it might spool a little late but hoping it will pull to 7,500rpms.
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post #34 of 57 Old 07-12-2012, 12:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinschmidt1 View Post
Obviously a smaller AR is going to spool quicker and make more power tq down low and a bigger AR should make more power up top.
Your not going to make MORE power...it's just going to shift your power band left or right....respectively

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinschmidt1 View Post
The question is, what will be faster?
Technically speaking....rear end gears, trans. gearing, and suspesion work will make you faster than you think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinschmidt1 View Post
My car is a street car so im seriously debating whether or not I should drop down to a .81 a/r or even a .68 a/r and how much they might hurt power up top.
From my understand .81 is for the street....96 a/r is more suited for track duty. (2v motors)

Post #2 is 100% correct

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Originally Posted by MJs89GT View Post
I think what a lot of it boils down to is weather or not you'll go beyond the turbo's efficiency range.... if your power goals are small enough for a .68 to handle theres no benefit in upgrading, keep it small with a quick spool time.
This also is correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Jenna View Post
Then try to imagine more...

Much more to worry about than this vs that at 7psi (blanket statements). Exhaust port flow, header diameter, turbine, and downpipe have to be dealt with also for the whole package to work. Not to mention the all important cylinder head and camshaft choices.

Also on a street car I dont like smaller a/r's...quicker spool = more spin usually.
this also is correct ( I'm focusing more on the heads and cam choices)
Your turbo should be matched accordingly in order....
1. Heads
2. Cams
3. Intercooler

Post # 25
FOR LIGHTBLADE: The dyno sheet you have posted...Is it for 2v,3v, or 4v motor?

2v,3v and 4v motors wouldn't re-act the same to the same changes would they? I'm not sure. I'm a little loss when comparing the three

Lastly to the OP: I thought I read somewhere that you have blower cams. Is that true? If so, I would think the cams would need to be change 1st...in order to optimize your set-up, before switching to a smaller a/r.

If I wrong on any of this...please correct me
sorry if this sounds like gibberish....trying to put the kid to sleep

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Originally Posted by Baznasty Dave View Post
Hopefully my car will pull to 7,500rpms without falling out, i am going with a .96AR knowing it might spool a little late but hoping it will pull to 7,500rpms.
MMR motor
TF heads
Eddie intake, 6061 elbow, 90mm TB
76mm, BB, Billet wheel turbo W/.96AR

Eh I don't think your pulling to 7500 with a 2v....maybe with some.crazy ass Cams?


Probably not necessary to.make.good power thougj
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