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post #1 of 54 Old 07-03-2012, 02:12 AM Thread Starter
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Boosting issue with on3 kit

I have an on3 kit with a T78. Just had the car tuned/dyno'd and its boosting super weird, almost like really bad lag, but there is no way that turbo is laggin that bad.....

The motor is good to handle what its making easy and ive got a build 4r75w with PI converter and Freddy Brown FMVB.

Pretty much its boosting like a centri blower, Im thinking its a wastegate issue.... Just wanted to get some more input before i go splurge and spend $500 on new wastegates......




Any ideas would be much appreciated....

Pretty much down to a vacuum problem (really doubt it) or wastegate...... But even then the way its building boost seems odd to me.

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post #2 of 54 Old 07-03-2012, 02:24 AM
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t78 = big


most 76mm cars dont start building boost till 4k(im speaking 4v, not 2 v)

so if this is on a 2v car, without knowing what freaking motor your talking about , which kit , gear, etc etc(you left out a ton of details here) id say the turbo is too big for your combo


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post #3 of 54 Old 07-03-2012, 04:16 AM Thread Starter
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Built 4v. 8:5.1 compression with 98 cobra cams and 3.55s.....
Running e85

It may be my turbo is too large, just wanted some input.

Last edited by Reved up; 07-03-2012 at 05:01 AM.
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post #4 of 54 Old 07-03-2012, 07:13 AM
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What intake manifold? C-Heads? Cams degreed?

It is tough to say.....but I don't think it is a WG issue. That is some low compression, with a decent size turbo.

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post #5 of 54 Old 07-03-2012, 10:13 AM
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Are you running off the wastegate springs?

Get a electronic boost controller like the eboost...it makes a huge difference in how the boost comes on.

The wastegate starts opening slowly without a controller which is why your power is coming on like a centri, with a boost controller you can set the boost to say 20 psi and tell it to keep the wastegate completely shut until 18 psi.

Your waste gate is fine.
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post #6 of 54 Old 07-03-2012, 12:58 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ModularSpeed View Post
What intake manifold? C-Heads? Cams degreed?

It is tough to say.....but I don't think it is a WG issue. That is some low compression, with a decent size turbo.
Mach 1 intake and heads. I'm still not sure on cam degree, I'm thinking that might be part of the issue as well.

I only have a manual boost controller, I plan on gettin an ams1000 controller when I have a little more money.
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post #7 of 54 Old 07-03-2012, 02:26 PM
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normal 4v with a big turbo honestly....

only way to get it to spool faster with your combo is running more compression honestly and with e85, a 9.5 to 1 motor would spool it better.

try using a dump pipe off the turbo, it will help spool it about 500 rpm faster or so.

a better sized turbo with different wheels would change all of it honestly tho
your not having a waste gate issue

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post #8 of 54 Old 07-03-2012, 04:21 PM
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So running a open down pipe off the Turbo will make that big of a difference?
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post #9 of 54 Old 07-03-2012, 04:30 PM Thread Starter
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Already running open downpipe and no intake
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post #10 of 54 Old 07-03-2012, 05:06 PM
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Ever think about putting a smaller Turbo on it?


I've got a 67mm with a .96 a.r and I'm not even seeing full boost till 4k or so with a 2v

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post #11 of 54 Old 07-03-2012, 05:15 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by justinschmidt1 View Post
Ever think about putting a smaller Turbo on it?


I've got a 67mm with a .96 a.r and I'm not even seeing full boost till 4k or so with a 2v
I might get another turbo, ill see how this one does at the track first. Just wanted to make sure something wasnt wrong with it before i went to the track and beat on it.
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post #12 of 54 Old 07-03-2012, 05:37 PM
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I might get another turbo, ill see how this one does at the track first. Just wanted to make sure something wasnt wrong with it before i went to the track and beat on it.
I mean there is a few things to check.....obviously boost leaks can cause slow spooling.

Check all the vband connections with the car running for leaks, you should be able to feel air around them if they are leaking.

You said on3? what kit... Front facing kit?

I just had mine tuned and it looked somewhat like that on the dyno, 4-5 psi by 4k, and only 9-10 psi by 4500 rpms and I had boost leaks out of all 3 v bands.

Now that I fixed the leaks, boost pretty much all hits at one time around 4k rpms.
Also, I know you said your running a manual controller, not sure how they work but with my eboost controller like I said earlier, you can set the wastegate to stay 100% closed untill say 19 psi and have it set to 20 psi and boost should come up really fast vs when I was running just springs, my boost looked like yours, almost like a centri blower.

Anyways, what size a/r are you running on that turbo?

You could try downsizing the a/r way down to try to spool it faster...maybe a .61 backside.

I know thats a big turbo but I would think it would fully spool at some point, that thing seems like it still hasnt stopped climbing at 6k?

How much boost was it set for?

Last edited by justinschmidt1; 07-03-2012 at 05:40 PM.
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post #13 of 54 Old 07-03-2012, 05:40 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinschmidt1 View Post
I mean there is a few things to check.....obviously boost leaks can cause slow spooling.

Check all the vband connections with the car running for leaks, you should be able to feel air around them if they are leaking.

You said on3? what kit... Front facing kit?

I just had mine tuned and it looked somewhat like that on the dyno, 4-5 psi by 4k, and only 9-10 psi by 4500 rpms and I had boost leaks out of all 3 v bands.

Now that I fixed the leaks, boost pretty much all hits at one time around 4k rpms.
Also, I know you said your running a manual controller, not sure how they work but with my eboost controller like I said earlier, you can set the wastegate to stay 100% closed untill say 19 psi and have it set to 20 psi and boost should come up really fast vs when I was running just springs, my boost looked like yours, almost like a centri blower.

Anyways, what size a/r are you running on that turbo?

You could try downsizing the a/r way down to try to spool it faster...maybe a .61 backside.

I thought about downsizing the A/R to see how that worked. Right now its a .96 which is too big, but i thought it would be fine. I might try and pick up a electronic boost controller before i swap turbo's seeing as i want to get one anyway.
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post #14 of 54 Old 07-03-2012, 05:55 PM
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It's a big turbo thing. Good thing you can leave off a t-brake and don't have to shift. Honestly a wet 100 shoot would be the ticket. A lot of 4 cyl guys have to run nitrous on the little end to build boost with a large turbo.

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post #15 of 54 Old 07-03-2012, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Reved up View Post
I thought about downsizing the A/R to see how that worked. Right now its a .96 which is too big, but i thought it would be fine. I might try and pick up a electronic boost controller before i swap turbo's seeing as i want to get one anyway.
Yea, I mean for that turbo that seems pretty damn big, even with a 67mm and a .96 a/r I feel like im not seeing full boost till 4k or so, and thats only 10 psi.

I would suggest getting an electronic boost controller, check for leaks, and if all else fails you could throw a small a/r on it...but thats only gonna help so much.
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post #16 of 54 Old 07-03-2012, 06:29 PM Thread Starter
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I just talked to the place i got my turbo from. They said with that turbo and my setup if i dont see full boost by 4000 rpm then something is wrong..... Whether it be an exhaust leak or bad wastegates.... Also gonna try and run my vacuum lines to the wastegates a little differently, gonna use both ports instead of the bottom. Gonna run them as if im using an electric boost controller.
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post #17 of 54 Old 07-03-2012, 07:03 PM
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Lol that place sounds like they don't know what they are talking about
..and o don't think it's OK to do that with the waste gate plumbing.

My electronic wastegate only uses the bottom port.

I would expect you to see full boost by 4500-5k rpms though which I think should happen if you have no leaks and a good boost controller that keeps the gate 100% closed until you see that boost.

Just seems like boost never really shoots up like it should...once you get that thing spinning I would think it would go from 5 psi to 20 psi very quickly.

Last edited by justinschmidt1; 07-03-2012 at 07:12 PM.
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post #18 of 54 Old 07-03-2012, 07:17 PM
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Im just saying, my 2v auto setup isnt seeing 10 psi till somewhere around 4k rpms with a 67mm turbo and a .96 a/r so keep that in mind.

Your running a 78mm turbo with the same a/r and it looks like you saw 10 psi around 4500 rpms so it really doesnt seem that off to me.
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post #19 of 54 Old 07-03-2012, 07:18 PM Thread Starter
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Lol that place sounds like they don't know what they are talking about
..and o don't think it's OK to do that with the waste gate plumbing.

My electronic wastegate only uses the bottom port.

I would expect you to see full boost by 4500-5k rpms though which I think should happen if you have no leaks and a good boost controller that keeps the gate 100% closed until you see that boost.

Just seems like boost never really shoots up like it should...once you get that thing spinning I would think it would go from 5 psi to 20 psi very quickly.
Yea but its hitting 5psi at 4000 rpm but not making full boost until 5800......? The only other thing i can think of other then wastegates and boost leak is my BOV is getting vacuum from the intake manifold while the wastegates are getting it from the turbo... Could that cause it to not get enough pressure and the BOV to creep? I would think it would stop building boost all together, but just an idea???
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post #20 of 54 Old 07-03-2012, 07:59 PM
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Yea but its hitting 5psi at 4000 rpm but not making full boost until 5800......? The only other thing i can think of other then wastegates and boost leak is my BOV is getting vacuum from the intake manifold while the wastegates are getting it from the turbo... Could that cause it to not get enough pressure and the BOV to creep? I would think it would stop building boost all together, but just an idea???
If the BOV was open you would hear it and damn sure wouldnt be pushing 20+ psi lol.

Thats how mine is set up, IM to bov, wastegate from turbo.

Thats what is confusing me man, I figured it would start making boost and be fully spooled by 4500 rpms or so....I really think you should check for exhaust leaks pre turbo, if its not leaking, but a 300 dollars e boost controller.

Set it to open the gates at 20 psi and see what happens.
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post #21 of 54 Old 07-03-2012, 08:16 PM
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You can't hook up the wg with both lines w/o an electric controller. It just doesn't work. The controller releases pressure on the top port to allow the bottom ports pressure to open the valve. And thus the top ports pressure will kept the valve closed while building boost. Most just use the bottom port because it is easier. I have used a AVCR and a Profec boost controller and they really rock when used correctly.

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post #22 of 54 Old 07-03-2012, 08:28 PM Thread Starter
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You can't hook up the wg with both lines w/o an electric controller. It just doesn't work. The controller releases pressure on the top port to allow the bottom ports pressure to open the valve. And thus the top ports pressure will kept the valve closed while building boost. Most just use the bottom port because it is easier. I have used a AVCR and a Profec boost controller and they really rock when used correctly.

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That's what I thought.... I was given false information, cause without a vent to vent off pressure you can't use both ports
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post #23 of 54 Old 07-04-2012, 02:35 AM
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for reference
4v
hellion kit, turbonetics t76
18psi
c heads, mostly stock every thing
sullivan upper and lower
pump gas
3.55 gear t56 trans
8.5 to 1 compression
dynojet dyno
27 radials(car had slicks on it, but i put a set of street tires on it just for dyno tuning)
this is with the cut out open(i fabbed a cutout right in the down pipe where the piping turned to go under the k member)
turbo starts working right about 4k(10psi or so)

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post #24 of 54 Old 07-05-2012, 07:40 AM
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8.5 CR and Sully.....and stopping it at < 6800? Who specd that horrible combo?

I bet with a stock Mach1 intake manny.....that curve would be completely different, in a good way.

Also, you guys need to realize that degreeing the cams is a MAJOR factor when it comes to spooling. Sometimes people spend all the time and money in the world....but if their cams are not set-up right, they will never have a quick spooling combo with power up top.

If the cams are not degreed, and off by a substantial amount....that can and will affect spool time MUCH MUCH more than adding a point of compression. Much more.

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post #25 of 54 Old 07-05-2012, 03:56 PM Thread Starter
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^ I agree..... Car was build for a vortech t-trim and it spools up like one, so would make sense......
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post #26 of 54 Old 07-06-2012, 01:33 AM
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Quote:
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8.5 CR and Sully.....and stopping it at < 6800? Who specd that horrible combo?

I bet with a stock Mach1 intake manny.....that curve would be completely different, in a good way.

Also, you guys need to realize that degreeing the cams is a MAJOR factor when it comes to spooling. Sometimes people spend all the time and money in the world....but if their cams are not set-up right, they will never have a quick spooling combo with power up top.

If the cams are not degreed, and off by a substantial amount....that can and will affect spool time MUCH MUCH more than adding a point of compression. Much more.
the intake was ####. needed a elbow and cams springs etc etc.. dont get me started..

when it came in, it looked like this, and also a valve seat loose (c heads, go figure)



the cams on this did get degreed when i put it back together. and also went away from the sct3000 draw thru to a slot maf in blow thru. that car was a hot mess when it came to me. 4.10 gears and all...

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post #27 of 54 Old 07-06-2012, 12:57 PM
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heres my 98 gt (2v). Im running the First gen on 3 kit with all the piping lol I have a MP t76 with a .96 ar. I have 3.55 gears 28" tire and a built 4R70W.
Quick pull starting from 3-3500 dont remember in 2nd gear.

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I just sent the conv off to be tightened up some cuz its a little lose so we will see what that changes. But once i fixed a couple boost leaks i spool about 1000rpm less then i did to start with. I see boost starting around 2500 and full boost around 4500 ish,

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post #28 of 54 Old 07-06-2012, 01:31 PM
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I feel bad for you guys running these large inefficient turbo's. I made the switch to the billet wheel turbo and it was a night and day differnce. I never saw more than 7-8 lbs of boost in 1st gear before, now it spools off idle at part throttle and isntantly registers boost. I hit full boost (16psi) in first gear now, and I full spool by 2200 rpms in 3rd and 4th gear on the street. CT4-6765 billet wheel .81 ar. 650rwhp at 16psi. Made the car so much more reposnsive and fun to drive No more waiting til 3k rpms at wot to start making boost.

Now I'm going to a Comp Billet wheel tripple ceramic bb oil-less turbo here soon.

IMHO the turbo is the heart of your setup, dont skimp on cheaper cast wheel turbos. Do your self a favor and make the switch, you will not be disappointed!

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post #29 of 54 Old 07-06-2012, 03:39 PM
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My bet is an exhaust leak. Probably the v-bands. My on3 v-bands were junk. Replaced them with new ones from racepartsolutions.com and it was a remarkable difference.

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post #30 of 54 Old 07-06-2012, 04:24 PM
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I feel bad for you guys running these large inefficient turbo's. I made the switch to the billet wheel turbo and it was a night and day differnce. I never saw more than 7-8 lbs of boost in 1st gear before, now it spools off idle at part throttle and isntantly registers boost. I hit full boost (16psi) in first gear now, and I full spool by 2200 rpms in 3rd and 4th gear on the street. CT4-6765 billet wheel .81 ar. 650rwhp at 16psi. Made the car so much more reposnsive and fun to drive No more waiting til 3k rpms at wot to start making boost.

Now I'm going to a Comp Billet wheel tripple ceramic bb oil-less turbo here soon.

IMHO the turbo is the heart of your setup, dont skimp on cheaper cast wheel turbos. Do your self a favor and make the switch, you will not be disappointed!

lol wtf...anyone else wanna call BS on 16 psi at 2200 rpms? haha

I have a Comp billet wheel 67mm with a .96 a/r.....I still dont think I would see full boost until- 3500-4k rpms, I will find out for sure when it hits the dyno next week with the 3.27s in her.

Its hard to gauge on the street with an auto, obviously I cant hold 3rd gear at low rpms cause it will just downshift to 2nd.
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post #31 of 54 Old 07-06-2012, 05:44 PM
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I see full boost in 1st 2nd and 3rd. At 2500 when i mash the gas it jumps right to 3lbs once the exhaust leaks were fix it was night and day dif. I have an auto in my car so that def helps with the load/spool. At the Track with the trans brake i can launch at whatever boost i want so it really doesnt matter to me. And as for the turbo i went with that i could aford at the time. I will be upgrading it soon but for now its doing a good job.

i would double check your exhaust leaks and make sure you are sealed up.

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Think it will build boost faster with the converter un-locked? Cause the dyno run was obviously with the it locked up....
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post #33 of 54 Old 07-06-2012, 07:35 PM
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I see boost in all gears just seems like it doesn't really come on hard till 3500-4k but maybe that has a lot to do with my setup...blower Cams ported heads and eddy manifold all make power up top, not so much down low


I think with all my boost leaks fixed ill be able to see full boost by 4k at the latest on the dyno in third..

Gonna be interesting to see

I know in third gear I can see boost at like 2500 but it doesn't go anywhere haha

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post #34 of 54 Old 07-07-2012, 01:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lightblade View Post
I feel bad for you guys running these large inefficient turbo's. I made the switch to the billet wheel turbo and it was a night and day differnce. I never saw more than 7-8 lbs of boost in 1st gear before, now it spools off idle at part throttle and isntantly registers boost. I hit full boost (16psi) in first gear now, and I full spool by 2200 rpms in 3rd and 4th gear on the street. CT4-6765 billet wheel .81 ar. 650rwhp at 16psi. Made the car so much more reposnsive and fun to drive No more waiting til 3k rpms at wot to start making boost.

Now I'm going to a Comp Billet wheel tripple ceramic bb oil-less turbo here soon.

IMHO the turbo is the heart of your setup, dont skimp on cheaper cast wheel turbos. Do your self a favor and make the switch, you will not be disappointed!
the pt6768 i put on a 5.0 car was night and day. i wanted to try it on a 4v car. people think bigger is always better, and its not.
buy big ####ing turbo, then bitch about not spooling till 5k

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post #35 of 54 Old 07-07-2012, 05:02 PM
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hmm, do you think the .96 a/r is too big?

Ive got a 67mm billet wheel ...was gonna do a .81 but was told to go with .96 for more top end power.

Top end power doesnt seem to be the issues but I would prefer it came on faster/ earlier of course since its a street car and Im used to the instant power from a blower.
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