On 3 Performance 2011 5.0 Single Turbo System / Shop Car Build - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
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post #1 of 76 Old 09-26-2011, 05:59 PM Thread Starter
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On 3 Performance 2011 5.0 Single Turbo System / Shop Car Build

As some have already seen in the S-197 2011+ section, we have been working on a complete single turbo system for the new 2011+ 5.0 cars. Its been a long project and nearing the finish line where we can finally put it into production. So just wanted to get a thread going in the turbo section so we can get more exposure, show more photos and answer questions. Its been a fun project and it really turned out as good or better than expected. If you pull up to any show and pop the hood, the turbo just sticks out and looks mean. It really grabs your attention and turns heads.

This is actually our shop car that we used to do the build and it was bone stock when we picked it up. Over the last 3 months or so, we designed an under-hood mounted single turbo system. Each kit is going to come standard with our On 3 Performance ceramic ball bearing 67mm turbo with an option to go with our 76mm as well. We used the 76mm on our shop car and were slightly worried about the spool up and that size turbo. Yesterday we found out that will not be an issue, it spooled up about as suck as you hit the pedal on the right.

As of right now we are just running the 5psi standard spring that will come in the kit. This kit is going to come standard with our new On 3 Performance 44mm V-banded wastegate which is holding boost perfect at 5psi on the dyno. The car is still at Pick-ups Plus Cars.com which is where we get all of our tuning done on our cars at the shop. So once the car is back from there, we will get the official numbers posted but as of now, we are on the right track and I couldn’t be any happier.

Each kit will come complete and just need your choice of injector that you will run and maf recalibrated. Both of which we will be able to supply and include at the time of the purchase.

Once the car is back in our possession, we will finish up the last bit of testing we need and get it out to the track asap. I need to come up with some wheels and tires before we go to the track. Once I have some sticky tires on the car, we will be sure to get some track times. I cannot wait to see what we are going to be able to do at the track. Also wanted to thank BMR Suspension which took care of us in that department. We ended up doing a set of their springs, rear lower control arms, and adjustable pan-hard. Highly recommend the products, bolted on very easily and quick to answer the one question we had on the install.

Also before we got started on the project, I decided to mock up an off-road X pipe that we will also soon offer. We built a custom designed stainless 3” x-pipe for the guys just going the bolt on route. I need to still finish up the turbo parts but we are going to design a 3” stainless kit to eliminate the resonators and go from x-pipe to the axle back. Stay tuned for those new products as we roll them out and continue to develop more parts for the 2011+ platform

2011 X pipe kit:






Getting started on the car




Couple of the brackets included in the kit:




Custom molded couplers for our intercooler kit:




Custom made in-house oil feed line to our new oil restrictor plate:







Fitment of the kit, how everything sits and looks installed:
















Im going to reserve and hold the next few posts so that I can add to the thread and also post any updates. That way we can keep as much info and photos in the first few posts if the thread starts to get long.

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post #2 of 76 Old 09-26-2011, 06:01 PM Thread Starter
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Reserving for further photos

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post #3 of 76 Old 09-26-2011, 06:01 PM Thread Starter
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Reserving for any text updates and photos
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post #4 of 76 Old 09-26-2011, 07:16 PM
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If you use thread tape on the oil line will it void the warranty?

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post #5 of 76 Old 09-26-2011, 08:00 PM
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thats funny....but how the saying goes "if you have to ask, is it worth knowing"...

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post #6 of 76 Old 09-27-2011, 07:17 PM
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Bad ass man. Keep up the hard work.
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post #7 of 76 Old 09-27-2011, 10:20 PM
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If you use thread tape on the oil line will it void the warranty?
would you use tape on a brake line fiting kinda looks like the same style fiting?
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post #8 of 76 Old 09-28-2011, 02:09 AM
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^^^Those pics are AN fitting and don't need anything. What they attach to is an AN to pipe thread fitting. The pipe thread side needs something.
This thread should be interesting to say the least.
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post #9 of 76 Old 09-28-2011, 08:52 AM
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^^^Those pics are AN fitting and don't need anything. What they attach to is an AN to pipe thread fitting. The pipe thread side needs something.
This thread should be interesting to say the least.
..lol

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post #10 of 76 Old 09-28-2011, 03:02 PM Thread Starter
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Car is on the way back to the shop, everything went great and we are going to start the production of the kits. We kept the boost low, only running around 5psi right now and left the controller off. Going to put some miles on the car now and enjoy it.

It was fun since the shop tuning our car has done a good amount of work with the 2011's and we were able to compare the ford racing blower and mail order calibration dyno numbers to our car. Very cool to see us at around 5psi making the same torque and off by maybe 40-50rwhp but the blower setup was running around 9.x psi. Not to mention we have an auto that should eat up a few extra hp anyhow. So I think we are on the right track with this kit. If this combo was on a 6sp car and dynojet, I bet it would have been closer 500 rwhp.

We will get it back over for more numbers soon and turn the boost up a little more. All the pulls were done on a loaded Mustang Dyno for those that care to know



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post #11 of 76 Old 09-28-2011, 07:25 PM
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Why is it nosing over so early ?
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post #12 of 76 Old 09-28-2011, 08:34 PM
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needs more boost! 76mm and limiting it to 5psi.

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post #13 of 76 Old 09-28-2011, 09:42 PM Thread Starter
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Mainly with this session I wanted to get a tune on it and make sure that everything functioned properly mechanically. Also so that we can get it out on the road and put miles on it to make sure things work out well there as well. Im not a tuner but these cars are intricate and respond to so many things from what Im told. The boost slightly was falling at the end of the pull and if we can slow that down, its going effect it as well. There is still more in the car the way it sits and its early, this is the first test with the car. There are a few things we are going to try in order to see if we can broaden the hp curve but still where its at now isnt bad.

The 76mm on the car will make a ton more power, we just had it on wastegate pressure the whole time. I never installed the controller, its going to make plenty more power.
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post #14 of 76 Old 09-29-2011, 09:58 AM
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Id like to see all the small details ironed out before I give you guys a call to order, but definitely interested in this setup.

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01 COBRA MOTOR w/Aftercooled V2 SQ w/Gt Impeller
521RWHP and 419TQ on a Mustang Dyno
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post #15 of 76 Old 09-29-2011, 02:34 PM Thread Starter
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Im a little unsure of the issues really with the setup, we are going to continue messing with the combo and tune but as far as issues, there really aren't any flaws. Im pretty happy with the setup and cant wait to put as many miles on it up here before the weather turns for the worst
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post #16 of 76 Old 09-29-2011, 04:12 PM
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..... but as far as issues, there really aren't any flaws.
Turn it up to 10-12 psi. You'll find a flaw. Kind of a large one.
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post #17 of 76 Old 09-29-2011, 05:04 PM
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Turn it up to 10-12 psi. You'll find a flaw. Kind of a large one.
Care to elaborate?

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post #18 of 76 Old 09-29-2011, 06:47 PM
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Have you ever seen a coyote make less hp than torque ?
2011 Ford Mustang GT Dyno Results Graphs Hosepower - DragTimes.com
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post #19 of 76 Old 09-29-2011, 09:50 PM Thread Starter
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wonderful, I have always wanted to see a stock 2011 5.0 graph. Glad you could solve this so call "Problem". Thanks saved us a lot of time over here

My 2v turbo car and 4v 99 both make more torque than hp. Do those have problems too?
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post #20 of 76 Old 09-29-2011, 10:50 PM
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Do I really need to answer that last question ?
I wasn't trying to solve your "problem." And I surely haven't saved you any time. You don't apparently know what's wrong yet. But I guarantee it's there. I can already see it, and it will become more prevalent as boost goes up. If you don't already see it in the numbers, you aren't actually testing anything. All you did was dyno tune the car. You won't be able to blame it on the dyno or having an auto either. You think it's normal for a car that peaks at 6500, only be making 20rwhp more at peak that it did at 5300 ? Interesting. Can't wait to see more boost.
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post #21 of 76 Old 09-29-2011, 11:08 PM
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^ waste gate placement
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post #22 of 76 Old 09-30-2011, 06:50 AM
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I think their in the right direction and i dont think they have a "problem". My opinion is the numbers are where they are due to barely tickling the 76. That thing barely started to turn before the gate opened. Id like to see the 67mm or whatever the non upgraded charger would do. I think you would see huge gains with a few more psi and let that think do a little work. Im sold on it personally. Not bashing at all but I just feel like their dyno session was like saying i have a 10" c**k but only use 5" of it. Like i said im sold and i think you guys did a great job with it.

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post #23 of 76 Old 09-30-2011, 10:55 AM
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10secgoal, what do you think is the problem? Too big of a turbo? I'm not a turbo guy so the numbers for 5psi on a mustang dyno thru an auto seem great to me.
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post #24 of 76 Old 09-30-2011, 12:02 PM Thread Starter
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10sec has never been positive nor constructive in any thread I have been involved in since day one. Always questioning what I do, making negative posts, and never helping out in any certain way other than trying to alway put us down. Its always negative and I just get sick of the typical TM guys following me and NEVER saying or doing anything positive towards me or my company. Those that are curious, thats why I generally do no answer any posts from that member(s) and reason for my sarcasm toward them.

Moving on, when you look at compressor maps of similar sized turbos, it made a little more sense even at that boost to run the 76mm. We could have ran the 67mm but I really wanted to see how the 76mm would work out since we leave that as upgrade options to our kits. We were able to keep the iat temps down pretty low, starting around 90 degrees on a pull and ending around 110. I think if we went with the smaller turbo, those would go up. I think there are benefits of running both and we may swap out to the 67mm down the road but right now we will continue on the track we are on.

Im not positive on the boost the other blower cars are coming with but for instance the Roush 525 blower kits generally are putting down around 460rwhp on the same dyno and production cars around 448rwhp(6sp cars). Which since this is all about the graph, that puts us right there in the mix of all that if we are just comparing numbers. I just hope to get it out to the track soon enough to get some passes on it and continue tweaking on things. Thats where my focus is at and hopefully we will have it back over to the dyno again soon for some numbers with a few extra psi.
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post #25 of 76 Old 09-30-2011, 12:03 PM Thread Starter
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^ waste gate placement
The wastegate couldnt really be in any better spot than it is
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post #26 of 76 Old 09-30-2011, 02:01 PM
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10sec has never been positive nor constructive in any thread I have been involved in since day one. Always questioning what I do, making negative posts, and never helping out in any certain way other than trying to alway put us down.
Here goes the "whoa is me" again. I went to bat and told people to leave you alone. To give you your fair shot and you blew it horribly. And even after that I still stuck up for you when people bitched about your parts, and told them to contact you before going to TM and complaining about you. So don't act like any of it wasn't brought on by your own actions.


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Its always negative and I just get sick of the typical TM guys following me and NEVER saying or doing anything positive towards me or my company.
No sweet heart, nobody follows you. I was a member here before you started that company. You know this as I've already told you this before though.


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Those that are curious, thats why I generally do no answer any posts from that member(s) and reason for my sarcasm toward them.
Is that why ? Here I thought it was you just didn't why it was nosing over. You have the same problem as the hellion kit, but yours will be worse. Although your chinese intercooler will have better results than his chinese intercooler. I'm just not 100% if you will be able to see it because of said problem.

I'd hate for you to think I was talking out of my ass just because. I'm willing to put some skin in the game.
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post #27 of 76 Old 09-30-2011, 03:16 PM
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So are you saying its an intercooler problem?
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post #28 of 76 Old 09-30-2011, 04:03 PM
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Hellions 6 psi.
http://image.musclemustangfastfords...._back+.JPG.jpg


Hellion @12

http://image.musclemustangfastfords...._back+.JPG.jpg

Ruh Roh. What happened ? ON3's IC is better than Hellion. Even at the same thickness, Chad's has a longer core with more pressure drop. Hellions is short cored with less pressure drop but the inlets aren't nice at all. But 20 deg gain in temp on the dyno with 6 psi isn't great by any standards.
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post #29 of 76 Old 09-30-2011, 04:30 PM Thread Starter
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So since you know everything about our kit, whats the pressure drop on our kit? I would love to hear from you since it sounds like you were at the shop sitting shotgun as the car was being tuned. Are you aware this is air to air, you can be serious on a 20 degree increase on air temps for a given pull on the dyno. And where are the temp differences that you are comparing me to since you are now making a big deal about the intercooler? Were is the supporting data?

OMG! that car is making higher torque than hp, there is a problem! Better save your time coming at me and call them to let them know there is a problem with their car too. Maybe we can team up and figure out this higher torque than hp issue you have made a big deal about. I needed that laugh today

Last edited by On 3 Performance; 09-30-2011 at 04:32 PM.
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post #30 of 76 Old 09-30-2011, 05:56 PM Thread Starter
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Just wanted to elaborate a little since there has been made a pretty big deal with the dyno numbers and how there is a so called problem. We now have graphs to compare and seem to follow pretty closely and also are slightly skewed as you can see they stop the 2nd pull we are being compared to early for some reason. Not to mention its just numbers with no other graphs to show boost or any other data.

So back to our car, its a 2011 MUSTANG GT BONE STOCK AUTOMATIC CAR. All the tuning was done using a Loaded Mustang Dyno which all know will read lower than a standard Dynojet. You can research and find data anywhere from 7% to 14% lower and physically watch youtube videos of cars going from one to another and do the math. My numbers Ill use will be 7%/8% on our comparison data. Here is a good article to explain further as well:

the following is taken straight from the C&L Performance website

"We have received a report from a "concerned customer" who informed us that some people believe that the dyno chart at the bottom of this page has incorrect information. Apparently, people on internet web forums somehow believe that we "do not know what we are talking about" due to the fact that we state that a stock 2003-2004 Cobra made "only" 316 rear wheel horsepower on a MUSTANG dyno. Since "everyone knows that these cars make at least 360 rear wheel horsepower stock" and these people must be ignoring the first three charts on the page, we felt it necessary to explain. The first three charts on this page were tested using DYNOJET dynos, which is an inertia style dyno. The SAE corrected numbers that it delivers are what most people use when trying to compare horsepower numbers "on the internet", because it is the most commonly used type of dyno. The chart at the bottom of the page was generated from testing on a MUSTANG dynamometer, which is a load bearing dyno, and these dynos will typically read about 14% lower than the Dynojet numbers that most people are used to seeing.

If you take the baseline value that is mentioned (316) and multiply it by 1.14, you will 'amazingly' come up with a value of 360.24 HP as the "stock" adjusted value. In addition to this, if you take the peak "after" horsepower reading of 372.9 (which was measured with an exhaust upgrade and our air intake assembly) and multiply it by 1.14, you will achieve a value of 425.1 HP. If you look at the second dyno chart on this page, you will find that another vehicle with the similar modifications (exhaust upgrade and our air intake) just so happened to make 426.44 HP on a Dynojet, which is only 1.3 HP off from this adjusted value. Even though the base values are lower when using a Mustang brand dyno, you will notice that the improvement of 22 rear wheel horsepower that was measured when testing our intake assembly was not substantially different than the gains shown in the first two dyno tests on this page. If this doesn't make sense to you, then we strongly suggest that you do not "contribute" to the education of people in your community on the internet message boards. The caption under the last dyno chart explicitly states that this vehicle was tested on a Mustang dyno. We hope that this information will clear any confusion that might have existed in the mind of any internet "experts" who were unaware that different types of dynos exist and that they can actually deliver different horsepower readings."

With that being said, you can do the math on our numbers and then take into consideration around a 30hp/tq drop on the auto cars from what Im seeing. Most seem to be in the 340-350 from what I can find to this point. Then we are running in the mid 5psi area of boost and the "other" car we are being compared to is at a supposed 6.x psi. So add 20/25 to our numbers to try and make it as close of a comparison as we can for the time being. I will take the car to a dynojet for a few pulls when time allows but Im more concerned with street and track than dyno numbers.

If you take all those variables into consideration and do the math, a very fair estimate for a 2011 stock 5.0 6sp car on a dynojet should make around 551/568 to the tires. We will see soon enough though, phone is ringing with customers wanting kits
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post #31 of 76 Old 09-30-2011, 06:02 PM
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So since you know everything about our kit, whats the pressure drop on our kit? I would love to hear from you since it sounds like you were at the shop sitting shotgun as the car was being tuned.
If I told you you wouldn't know because I doubt you have that data. (But I would wager to say aprox .5-.75 psi at 6 psi @7k.) I don't need to know anything about your kit other than that intercooler to make a judgment on it's capabilities. It's turbocharging 101. The LONGER the core, the HIGHER the pressure drop. With that comes better cooling from longer contact with the cores. SHORTER cores offer less pressure drop and cooling because of LESS contact. Mmmkay ? You might be close to him in pressure drop since your core is over all larger. Your inlets will definetly be better. But you probably won't have much drop either way because the chinese aren't known for packing the core very tight with fins to extract heat. (That would make them cost more) Which is why they advertise them with pressure drop rather than cooling capabilities. Everything the same, the design you have will offer more cooling with more pressure drop.

Quote:
Are you aware this is air to air, you can be serious on a 20 degree increase on air temps for a given pull on the dyno. And where are the temp differences that you are comparing me to since you are now making a big deal about the intercooler? Were is the supporting data?
Again turbo charging 101. General rule of thumb for IC's is 2 psi pressure drop or more than 20 deg gain in temp the IC is not working as well as it "should" be. And your only on the dyno with 6 psi. It's going to get worse with more load at the track and higher psi. But I wasn't really making a big deal about it. I answered procharged question. Since this is a tech forum. But generally speaking you fit what you can and hope for the best. But my specific data would look something like 11 deg rise with less than 1 psi drop at 6k, 14 psi and 700rwhp+. Was supposed to be a great tube and fin design. Not so much. Waste of 500 for the core. Went back to tried and true.

Quote:
OMG! that car is making higher torque than hp, there is a problem! Better save your time coming at me and call them to let them know there is a problem with their car too. Maybe we can team up and figure out this higher torque than hp issue you have made a big deal about. I needed that laugh today
Keep laughing, I'm enjoying it. Your graph shows 3 potential warning signs of a problem. Kinda like I told you the forward facing kits boost creep problem wasn't going to be solved by using your suggested larger tube with the same sized wastegate. You were so happy I was so interested then also. Don't those kits come with 2 38mm's now instead of that 46mm ? There is certainly no reason for us to team up and figure it out. I already know exactly what it is, and what it's causing. I've seen that data. Hell, seeing what I did I knew you were going to have a problem months ago. I got you're getting as big of a laugh out of it as I am. Maybe you can call Hellion. They already know why as well.



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Originally Posted by On 3 Performance View Post
If you take all those variables into consideration and do the math, a very fair estimate for a 2011 stock 5.0 6sp car on a dynojet should make around 551/568 to the tires. We will see soon enough though, phone is ringing with customers wanting kits
Yes, please hurry. Can't wait. Notice.... I didn't say a word about the actual numbers, or peaks did I ? I didn't need those numbers. Interesting.

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post #32 of 76 Old 09-30-2011, 07:56 PM
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The wastegate couldnt really be in any better spot than it is
whoops! sorry I had been awake for over 24 hours when Iposted that, brain fart! i thought you had the wastegate after the turbo not recirculated into the exhaust like it actually is, sorry didn't mean to stir anything up, looks good to go then!
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post #33 of 76 Old 10-03-2011, 11:26 AM Thread Starter
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Its cool, the wastegate sits right in the flow directly under the turbo and dumps right back into the downpipe
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post #34 of 76 Old 10-04-2011, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by 10secgoal View Post
If I told you you wouldn't know because I doubt you have that data. (But I would wager to say aprox .5-.75 psi at 6 psi @7k.) I don't need to know anything about your kit other than that intercooler to make a judgment on it's capabilities. It's turbocharging 101. The LONGER the core, the HIGHER the pressure drop. With that comes better cooling from longer contact with the cores. SHORTER cores offer less pressure drop and cooling because of LESS contact. Mmmkay ? You might be close to him in pressure drop since your core is over all larger. Your inlets will definetly be better. But you probably won't have much drop either way because the chinese aren't known for packing the core very tight with fins to extract heat. (That would make them cost more) Which is why they advertise them with pressure drop rather than cooling capabilities. Everything the same, the design you have will offer more cooling with more pressure drop.

Again turbo charging 101. General rule of thumb for IC's is 2 psi pressure drop or more than 20 deg gain in temp the IC is not working as well as it "should" be. And your only on the dyno with 6 psi. It's going to get worse with more load at the track and higher psi. But I wasn't really making a big deal about it. I answered procharged question. Since this is a tech forum. But generally speaking you fit what you can and hope for the best. But my specific data would look something like 11 deg rise with less than 1 psi drop at 6k, 14 psi and 700rwhp+. Was supposed to be a great tube and fin design. Not so much. Waste of 500 for the core. Went back to tried and true.

Keep laughing, I'm enjoying it. Your graph shows 3 potential warning signs of a problem. Kinda like I told you the forward facing kits boost creep problem wasn't going to be solved by using your suggested larger tube with the same sized wastegate. You were so happy I was so interested then also. Don't those kits come with 2 38mm's now instead of that 46mm ? There is certainly no reason for us to team up and figure it out. I already know exactly what it is, and what it's causing. I've seen that data. Hell, seeing what I did I knew you were going to have a problem months ago. I got you're getting as big of a laugh out of it as I am. Maybe you can call Hellion. They already know why as well.



Yes, please hurry. Can't wait. Notice.... I didn't say a word about the actual numbers, or peaks did I ? I didn't need those numbers. Interesting.
Haters gonna hate.

Probably upset by all the taxes he pays in san Diego and when he voted for O and nothing changed now he's real pist. Like how I said stuff about you with no facts. If you can do better start your own business and put on3 out. It's called capitalism. You know so much how come your not a world renowned tuner. I don't own an on3 just think its funny how people become know it Alls and talk bad to you behind the computer screen.
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post #35 of 76 Old 10-04-2011, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by XDFOX View Post
Haters gonna hate.

Probably upset by all the taxes he pays in san Diego and when he voted for O and nothing changed now he's real pist. Like how I said stuff about you with no facts. If you can do better start your own business and put on3 out. It's called capitalism. You know so much how come your not a world renowned tuner. I don't own an on3 just think its funny how people become know it Alls and talk bad to you behind the computer screen.
Just so you know he has his own company.

89 coupe- some parts

best time-11.67
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