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post #1 of 36 Old 08-21-2011, 09:13 PM Thread Starter
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turbo guys with auto's footbreak question

been going to the track and can't seem to footbreak more than 2300 rpms before it starts pushing through the tires. is there any secrets to adjusting the breaks to get them to hold more? would like to see somewhere about 2600 rpms so I can set my launch control around 2400 to help make boost.


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post #2 of 36 Old 08-21-2011, 09:49 PM
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Push the brake pedal harder? Short of that, if you're pushing through the brakes, you may need to start looking into a looser stall, or a transbrake, and transbrakes are hell on the driveline.

Personally, I would look into a looser stall converter.


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post #3 of 36 Old 08-21-2011, 10:54 PM
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No secrets, thats your converter

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post #4 of 36 Old 08-22-2011, 10:42 AM
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I was kinda wondering something bout footbrakeing for the turbo car. what are most people able to get to and able to lunch the car? also to the guys with transbrake and the turbo what rpm do you lunch at?

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post #5 of 36 Old 08-22-2011, 10:54 AM
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Not many turbo foot breakers around here, but the ones that are, use aero space dual caliper rear breaks. Not an option for the street, but if its a track only car, they will help.

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post #6 of 36 Old 08-22-2011, 10:54 AM
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On my last converter it was very loose, I was able to see 3000rpm roughly before pushing thru and that was holding the brakes for everything I could. I would see no boost (I assume not enuff load for my combo) but as soon as I would launch it would build the boost fast. I went 1.44-1.46's like this.
On the TB I would see 7-8psi quickly or more depending how long I satyed on the brake, that was on no 2 step all converter around 4000rpm. this converter was to loose and I was blowing thru it, but worked well for footbrake launches.

My new converter is much tighter, I can only footbrake to around the same rpm as you (limited testing this far) but I will be leaving on the brake now. This converter will never 60' in the 1.4's on the footbrake, but should leave well on the transbrake (if suspension works) and will not blow thru in the higher rpms.

Hope that wasn't to long winded, just my exp with footbraking.

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post #7 of 36 Old 08-22-2011, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 88mmNotch View Post
Not many turbo foot breakers around here, but the ones that are, use aero space dual caliper rear breaks. Not an option for the street, but if its a track only car, they will help.
Why do you say not an option for the street? I would say not for a DD but i dont see anything wrong with street use.
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post #8 of 36 Old 08-22-2011, 12:30 PM
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Why do you say not an option for the street? I would say not for a DD but i dont see anything wrong with street use.
Ask anyone who runs aero space race brakes on the street. They warp and it happens alot faster than you think it will. I went through this and ended up switching to streets. There is a reason they offer two styles.

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post #9 of 36 Old 08-22-2011, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by 88mmNotch View Post
Ask anyone who runs aero space race brakes on the street. They warp and it happens alot faster than you think it will. I went through this and ended up switching to streets. There is a reason they offer two styles.

Same here, mine warped quick.

The dual rear calipers work but are usually on turbo cars that have large turbos and need time to build boost and issues pushing thru staging.

I think he has a tight converter.

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post #10 of 36 Old 08-22-2011, 01:02 PM
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Why do you say not an option for the street? I would say not for a DD but i dont see anything wrong with street use.
To much heat. You have twice the friction surface.


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post #11 of 36 Old 08-22-2011, 03:33 PM
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I am actually just going thru this now, aerospace told me if you drive more than 10miles in stop n go traffic the drag rotors can possibly warp that fast.
Mine warped, pads glazed, and my brake pistons actually saw damage from the heat. I was not happy to say the least. After pricing/shopping other brakes, I finally got in contact with the right person at Aerospace and it has been great since. They are taking care of me. My calipers are there now getting rebuilt (no charge) and getting a great deal on an upgrade to the street kit. The weight of my car isnt ideal for the drag brakes and I plan to do alot more street driving in the future, so this is working out good in the long run. The street rotors are larger and have vanes unlike the solid steel drag rotors.

Do not drive the drag brakes on the street or you may have issues.

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post #12 of 36 Old 08-22-2011, 04:04 PM
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I'm surprised they even recommended dual calipers on a vented rotor. I called Mark Williams, Wilwood and Strange when I was thinking about dual calipers. They ALL did not recommend them on a street car. My current Wilwood rear rotors are 12 1/2" dual vane vented and will still get pretty hot after a few hot stops with 1 caliper.

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post #13 of 36 Old 08-22-2011, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by 4Jenna View Post
I am actually just going thru this now, aerospace told me if you drive more than 10miles in stop n go traffic the drag rotors can possibly warp that fast.
Mine warped, pads glazed, and my brake pistons actually saw damage from the heat. I was not happy to say the least. After pricing/shopping other brakes, I finally got in contact with the right person at Aerospace and it has been great since. They are taking care of me. My calipers are there now getting rebuilt (no charge) and getting a great deal on an upgrade to the street kit. The weight of my car isnt ideal for the drag brakes and I plan to do alot more street driving in the future, so this is working out good in the long run. The street rotors are larger and have vanes unlike the solid steel drag rotors.

Do not drive the drag brakes on the street or you may have issues.
I did the same thing your doing. Had my race kit upgraded to street. Rears only. Been very happy ever since. I'm looking to purchase fronts this winter. Glad to see they are taking care of you. I will be happy to give them my business again.

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post #14 of 36 Old 08-22-2011, 05:15 PM
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Stangjumper I am not running the dual rear calipers, no need for them on mine.

88mm, I am going from drag rotors on all 4 corners to the street rotors. I was very unhappy the first couiple phone calls, then I got in touch with the right person and all is well. I hope these make the difference on my car!

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post #15 of 36 Old 08-22-2011, 06:53 PM
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Sorry I miss understood. I run Wilwood dual vane street rotors front/rear on my 3400-3500lb car and they work well. I didn't want to run the drag rotors. It wasn't worth the weight difference to me.

New build in progress: Twin Gen 2 PT6466 352

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post #16 of 36 Old 08-22-2011, 07:06 PM
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Sorry I miss understood. I run Wilwood dual vane street rotors front/rear on my 3400-3500lb car and they work well. I didn't want to run the drag rotors. It wasn't worth the weight difference to me.
I'm with you, and when I found out the weight diff from the drag/street rotors was a total of 16lbs front/rear combined I scratched my head as to why I ever ran the drag stuff.

I'll add a pound of boost to make up for the weight haha!

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post #17 of 36 Old 08-22-2011, 08:26 PM
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I was going to do this to mine, but the new car is a stick so I don't need it. Wilwood back brakes are all mounted to the center with a bracket. The center has holes so they don't have to make a different center for ea option. Looked to me like you could just get another set of calipers and mounts and just bolt them on. then you have a thick rotor, and e-brake for the street. From there I was thinking of a line lock or something of the sorts. I'm sure you could find it at mccmaster carr or something. A line lock normally closed. When you stage, power the solenoid to open working all four calipers. When you jump off the foot brake, let go of the momentary switch and it will close the 2nd set of calipers. Now you have a normal set of back brakes for shut down.
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post #18 of 36 Old 08-22-2011, 09:06 PM
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This is all interesting but sounds like a lot of work when a transbrake solves this issue.

You don't have to launch like an animal just because you have a transbrake, you can adjust launch rpm, timing and boost if your controller is setup right. It will be as hard on the drivetrain as you would like.

When I talked to Baer about the dual caliper setup, too much work for something the car really didn't need. (aftermarket m/c, fouls up street driving etc).

The cars I have seen that "need" the dual caliper setup is when they begin staging on the two step on the first beam, then bump into second beam and set the transbrake and 3-step. if you have that sort of staging practice you likely don't drive the thing on the street. You need 3-step rev limiter to control that setup also which means more money in ignition setup.

I think we are mixing street practices with all out race setups.

This poor guy just needs a transbrake.

10secgoal: I bet if you made a kit for that you would get some takers, and likely a bunch that really don't need it. May be a good way to fund your projects.

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post #19 of 36 Old 08-22-2011, 09:49 PM
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Yeah, many may not need it. I was thinking about it for mine so I could push hard at the track, but still stop normal and drive normal on the street. But it was a 1000hp car I was building. I wasn't sure what the pre beam psi was going to be with two 72-75mm turbines lol.
I thought about putting it together....but man, i only have so much bloody time lol. Hopefully once I slow with R&D on this next kit, I can start tinkering some more.
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post #20 of 36 Old 08-22-2011, 09:55 PM Thread Starter
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well now I know everything about breaks. just thought there was a way of adjusting the back drums alittle tighter to get some more rpm's. got ahold of lenny at ultimate converters to see if he can loosen this one up. this is just a street car that see's the track about twice a month if that. may concider putting a 5spd in it? maybe

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post #21 of 36 Old 08-22-2011, 10:01 PM
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This is all interesting but sounds like a lot of work when a transbrake solves this issue.

You don't have to launch like an animal just because you have a transbrake, you can adjust launch rpm, timing and boost if your controller is setup right. It will be as hard on the drivetrain as you would like.

When I talked to Baer about the dual caliper setup, too much work for something the car really didn't need. (aftermarket m/c, fouls up street driving etc).

The cars I have seen that "need" the dual caliper setup is when they begin staging on the two step on the first beam, then bump into second beam and set the transbrake and 3-step. if you have that sort of staging practice you likely don't drive the thing on the street. You need 3-step rev limiter to control that setup also which means more money in ignition setup.

I think we are mixing street practices with all out race setups.

This poor guy just needs a transbrake.

10secgoal: I bet if you made a kit for that you would get some takers, and likely a bunch that really don't need it. May be a good way to fund your projects.
Only problem with a T brake is some classes do not allow it. Other wise I agree.

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post #22 of 36 Old 08-23-2011, 12:53 AM
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a better converter will help a ton hate to say it but my ucc is rated for 3k but flashes 3800 when i hit boost off the line wich is working realy well for my set up havnt used the 2step yet nor my tbrake foot brake at the line 2500 half throttle then go full just before leaving the line
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a better converter will help a ton hate to say it but my ucc is rated for 3k but flashes 3800 when i hit boost off the line wich is working realy well for my set up havnt used the 2step yet nor my tbrake foot brake at the line 2500 half throttle then go full just before leaving the line
talked to lenny today and he is going to loosen it up for me. he told me i should be able to see about 3000 on the footbreak. Then i can set the launch control about 2500 to see boost of the line

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post #24 of 36 Old 08-25-2011, 09:16 PM
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Heres a little trick I do. I'm running a 3400 stall and can only brake to 2600rpm myself. I need 3000rpm to fully spool my turbo off the line.

I put the selector in 2nd and give it part throttle to 3000rpm and let the boost gague get up to around 7psi, Drop the selector into 1st and it takes about .5 to shift. soon as I feel it start to break traction and know it's in 1st I go wot and leave on full boost.

I just got this turbo kit going the other week and only have 2 runs on this setup, but it cut a 1.7 60' on low boost set t 10psi and run 7.7 @ 94 mph with a v6 engine. Going back on the 2nd launching on more boost and full boost at 15psi shooting for 1.6 60's and bottom 7's.

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post #25 of 36 Old 08-26-2011, 10:48 AM
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I didn't see anyone mention an adjustable proportion valve. I switched to a PV when I had 13" brakes with skinny's. I adjusted for more rear braking but was also able to hold more boost at the line as another benefit. I had a PTC 3500 converter so I set the 2 step for 3000 and was able to see 5-6 lbs before launch.

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post #26 of 36 Old 08-26-2011, 12:22 PM
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^^ Because the valve it to keep the backs from locking up first. If you get caught in bad weather, your ass end can come swinging around pretty easily. Most don't know they have too much rear bias until it rains. When it does rain, I get calls asking if I have adjustable valves lol.
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post #27 of 36 Old 08-26-2011, 12:28 PM
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Who drives their turbo mustang in the rain? Lol

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post #28 of 36 Old 08-26-2011, 04:50 PM
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There were a number of fast turbo cars in the Atco NMRA race driving 32 miles in pouring rain.

It happens.

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post #29 of 36 Old 08-26-2011, 06:23 PM Thread Starter
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^^ Because the valve it to keep the backs from locking up first. If you get caught in bad weather, your ass end can come swinging around pretty easily. Most don't know they have too much rear bias until it rains. When it does rain, I get calls asking if I have adjustable valves lol.

would the valve help any in your opinion? my car never see's the rain ( no wipers and on slicks ). just some track and some street use

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post #30 of 36 Old 08-26-2011, 09:46 PM
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you need to specify the FLASH stall of your next converter. actual stall speed depends on torque applied. if you need a converter to stall to 3k, then get one that flashes to 3k, not one you have to hold the brake for IMO.

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post #31 of 36 Old 08-27-2011, 12:07 AM Thread Starter
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you need to specify the FLASH stall of your next converter. actual stall speed depends on torque applied. if you need a converter to stall to 3k, then get one that flashes to 3k, not one you have to hold the brake for IMO.
it is a 3200 flash stal. 9.5" unit built by lenny at ultimate converters. he told me its to tight, thats why i cant see any good rpm's on the footbreak. he knows i dont have a transbreak so he is going to loosen it up for my setup

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post #32 of 36 Old 08-27-2011, 12:10 PM
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I would give an APV a try but you will need the plug for the proportion valve. They have been sold out all summer.

Fms part number M-2450-A

I always recommended it when your running front runners. Just make sure you do plenty of testing so the rear doesn't come around at 130mph.

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post #33 of 36 Old 08-27-2011, 02:00 PM
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I would give an APV a try but you will need the plug for the proportion valve. They have been sold out all summer.

Fms part number M-2450-A

I always recommended it when your running front runners. Just make sure you do plenty of testing so the rear doesn't come around at 130mph.

I've been wanting one but havent found much info on them. Do they really allow you to brake the car to higher rpm?

Also the part number I found through fms was fmc-m-2328-c

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post #34 of 36 Old 08-29-2011, 04:25 PM
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I've been wanting one but havent found much info on them. Do they really allow you to brake the car to higher rpm?

Also the part number I found through fms was fmc-m-2328-c
The part you listed is the Ford version of the valve, it's $10 more then most but has a Ford sticker on it.

Here's a regular one:

Summit Racing SUM-G3905 - Summit Racing® Brake Proportioning Valves - Overview - SummitRacing.com


The part number I list was for the proportioning block, you have to remove the spring and check ball to get the biased in the rear. Once you remove the spring and ball you have to use the plug Ford Motorsport sells.

To answer your question, yes it works. Turbo buick guys have been doing this for years included changing to larger wheel cylinders for drum brakes. Just don't expect to stall higher then your flash.

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post #35 of 36 Old 01-02-2012, 04:15 PM
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SN95 dual rear caliper set-up; cooked this up some time ago for a friend of mine:

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