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post #1 of 66 Old 08-16-2011, 01:22 PM Thread Starter
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E85 intercooled vs non-intercooled my findings

Last year I was running 10psi with an intercooler wastegate only, coolant temps 215-220, AITs in 10-20 above ambient.

This year 13 psi no intercooler wastegate only, coolant temps 170 avg 190 max, AITs 215 Max, 173 avg.

The throttle/turbo response is stupid now, the turbo spools faster.



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post #2 of 66 Old 08-16-2011, 05:32 PM
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If I'm reading this correctly your AIT's are much higher than they were with a intercooler on the car..........why the hell would you do that ???


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Yea mine with a a2a and Meth usually stay at ambeint then drop by the end of a pull. Get as low as 80 with 97-100 iats.

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post #4 of 66 Old 08-16-2011, 11:15 PM
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Josh, you misread. Now without the intercooler the AIT's are lower (avg and max) than when he had the intercooler. So the E85 has allowed him to run more boost and lower AIT's without the intercooler.

OP? Meth Inj as well or no?

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post #5 of 66 Old 08-17-2011, 09:12 AM
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Josh, you misread. Now without the intercooler the AIT's are lower (avg and max) than when he had the intercooler. So the E85 has allowed him to run more boost and lower AIT's without the intercooler.

OP? Meth Inj as well or no?


He said IAT's were around 10-20* above ambient with an intercooler.. So if it was 100* outside IAT's would have been around 120*.


Now he's saying without one they average 173* and max at 215 (which is stupid high)

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post #6 of 66 Old 08-17-2011, 09:29 AM
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He said IAT's were around 10-20* above ambient with an intercooler.. So if it was 100* outside IAT's would have been around 120*.


Now he's saying without one they average 173* and max at 215 (which is stupid high)
this....


OP, have you played with the timing curve at all, and watched say egts for both? otherwise your data is almost next to worthless..knowing temps is great, but its next to worthless data unless you know your egts. logged runs with weather data, and so on.

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post #7 of 66 Old 08-17-2011, 10:29 AM
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I dont know what he is saying...but it's one of those things yall mentioned haha.

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post #8 of 66 Old 08-17-2011, 12:37 PM
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this....


OP, have you played with the timing curve at all, and watched say egts for both? otherwise your data is almost next to worthless..knowing temps is great, but its next to worthless data unless you know your egts. logged runs with weather data, and so on.



Agreed, without EGT's it's kinda pointless. Of course the IAT's would be lower with an intercooler vs without since the E85 doesn't get injected till the inlet charge is practically in the combustion chamber.


I would personally run an intercooler anyway. Higher IAT's are never good, E85 or not.

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post #9 of 66 Old 08-17-2011, 01:10 PM
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Agreed, without EGT's it's kinda pointless. Of course the IAT's would be lower with an intercooler vs without since the E85 doesn't get injected till the inlet charge is practically in the combustion chamber.


I would personally run an intercooler anyway. Higher IAT's are never good, E85 or not.
well no intercooler, and more boost... not boost for boost data either. and not stating the true #'s just stating above ambient really tells us nothing at all, other then he took the intercooler off, and is tossing more boost at it. (or was he losing 3psi in boost across the intercooler? i mean....???

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post #10 of 66 Old 08-19-2011, 10:26 AM Thread Starter
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You guys need to go over to the turbo forums and read...read alot...I did. You don't need an intercooler when u run alcohol. Its like running multiport methanol. Hell ethanol and methanol take out damn near the same amount of heat and are real close in octane too. 200 isn't really that high for AITs. I have no intercooler and it was costing me 3psi. Look at the guys making 1,000hp NO IC on e85. E85 IS THE SHIZ! I will add a DIY meth/water setup pre-turbo. No different than SC temps...if not cooler. You guys are so stone age. Read up then holler back.

http://www.theturboforums.com/search...index.php#1021

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post #11 of 66 Old 08-19-2011, 10:35 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhead559 View Post
this....


OP, have you played with the timing curve at all, and watched say egts for both? otherwise your data is almost next to worthless..knowing temps is great, but its next to worthless data unless you know your egts. logged runs with weather data, and so on.
I added 6* across Pope's map (Stock timing map with boost added). I run 26* @13psi NON intercooled with eddy 170s.


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post #12 of 66 Old 08-19-2011, 11:02 AM
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You guys need to go over to the turbo forums and read...read alot...I did. You don't need an intercooler when u run alcohol. Its like running multiport methanol. Hell ethanol and methanol take out damn near the same amount of heat and are real close in octane too. 200 isn't really that high for AITs. I have no intercooler and it was costing me 3psi. Look at the guys making 1,000hp NO IC on e85. E85 IS THE SHIZ! I will add a DIY meth/water setup pre-turbo. No different than SC temps...if not cooler. You guys are so stone age. Read up then holler back.

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I think 200* IS high for IAT's since....you know.....it is.

My IAT's are around 70* depending on weather.

So what if your intercooler was costing you 3 psi. Turn the boost controller knob 2 clicks.....problem solved.

You don't HAVE to have an intercooler with E85, but it sure helps. You won't find any heads up stock suspension or drag radial guys not running an intercooler. Cooler air makes more horsepower....period.

You say your IAT's aren't high and you don't need an intercooler, they why you are talking about adding a meth injection system to lower the IAT's ??? Now you have to keep an eye on the tank to make sure it's full of meth, plumb the system, wire up the controller, and you now have a link (the pump) that can fail and take your engine out with it. I would have rather turned the boost up 3psi and not had to worry with all of that.

I didn't click your links but I'm willing to bet most of them are carbureted cars. And we all know that carb'ed cars have one advantage over EFI in that the fuel mist cools the inlet charge before it enters the combustion chamber.

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post #13 of 66 Old 08-19-2011, 02:18 PM
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^^^^ Yes, a carb with E85 is much different. I'd still leave an IC on. Just because you can do it, doesn't mean it's better.
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post #14 of 66 Old 08-19-2011, 02:38 PM
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I'm doing the best of both with my new turbo build.....A2W i/c and E85. I don't think you would gain much safely by having 3# more boost..but IATs 100+ more degrees


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post #15 of 66 Old 08-19-2011, 04:33 PM
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Whats the setup and power?

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post #16 of 66 Old 08-19-2011, 07:31 PM
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I am switching my combo to E85 before ever getting it running. I guess I can always fab up an extra cold side and test the difference. I would rather actually sacrifice a few horse power to allow the radiator and fans to run more efficient.
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post #17 of 66 Old 08-19-2011, 07:39 PM
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200 degrees is really high. You can bake a potato at that temperature. E85 is not some magical fuel where you can just throw all safety precautions out the window and forget about engine knock. There have been many people destroy their engines on E85

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post #18 of 66 Old 08-19-2011, 11:00 PM Thread Starter
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My air intake temps probably aren't the most accurate either cause the sensor is in the piping that is right above the turbo. I have a blanket on the turbo, but I bet the sensor is reading some heat soak. I will move it tomorrow and report back. I guarantee my temps are lower, but if not they still safe.

Tell the guys that make big power all this. The only difference between carbs and injection is that the carb introduces the fuel sooner.

Pre-compressor injection offers a host of benefits. In a nutshell, injecting water (and ideally a few other miscible fluids of high specific heat capacity) pushes the compression from adiabatic to near isothermal. This is way more efficient (up to 30%). So you can reach the same boost for considerably less exhaust flow. My tp38 spools just fine, but my TV7701 might need some help.

E85 isn't magical, but alcohol sure does remove a shiz ton of heat.

Superchargers run about 115-200* ABOVE ambient.


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post #19 of 66 Old 08-19-2011, 11:11 PM
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I am confused as to why you removed the intercooler that was already on there? If it was giving you cooler IATs, then why remove it? Sure E85 has a magical cooling capability, but why not use an intercooler to keep IATs down, and be able to run more timing?

Also interested in the EGTs and dyno/track times. All you have shown us is that you have hotter air going into the engine, I am not surprised.
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qoute from Rodney at AIS
At 10-12 psi your air temps will get as high as 180-220 depending on the temperature of the day and where your pulling air from. These temps aren't bad and just fine with no intercooler and E85. How to tell if you need an intercooler or higher octane fuel or water methanol injection. Timing is one way. If your starting to have to pull a lot of timing to avoid detonation. Reduce the air charge temps by adding an intercooler or water methanol injection or switch to a higher octane fuel or add water methanol injection to your E85 to bump that up. The engine will let you know if you need to make some changes once you get it up and running and see where your at with the tune.

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You probably won't find much info over here, but you guys should really start reading on TTF. Corral is awesome and I learned alot here, but TFF is level 2+. Just do a search...knowledge won't hurt.

I removed my IC for faster spool and it was a cxracing and thought it was holding some psi back. AND after read...yeah READING. I found all those posts interesting and decided to experiment and it worked. I was gonna be running a TV7701 so I wanted as much spool decrease as possible.


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post #21 of 66 Old 08-20-2011, 12:22 AM
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I read turbo forums all the time too, it's nothing new to me. Plus how do you know that the intercooler cost you 3 psi? Did you check the boost before and after the intercooler when it was on the car? PV=nRT: Pressure x Volume = number of mols of a molecule x R(a constant) x temperature. You increase temperature, you increase pressure, it's not rocket science, I learned that in freshman chemistry. It's possible that's where your other 3 psi is coming from, yet you kept volume (the amount that matters in stoichiometry/combustion/power) a constant.

Have you done any dyno testing of before and after? Track times? EGT? Sure you have proven you can run your car on 13psi and e85, but has it given you a performance gain?

Like I said, all you have shown us is that you have increased your IATs by running no intercooler but are running 3 psi more, and that the car runs on e85 this way, and that you can read (and have the ability to capitalize the word read).

Plus, if you READ the thread, it says that the OP doesn't run an intercooler due to space requirements, yet others recommend a form of cooling the charge temperatures. I see nowhere in the post you quote where somebody says it is actually better to not run an intercooler.

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post #22 of 66 Old 08-20-2011, 01:18 AM Thread Starter
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I did read the thread...I had it bookmarked. Who cares why he doesn't run an intercooler.....the point is he's non-intercooled. Another reason I removed it cause last summer my water temps were in the 220 range now they are way cooler. I thought my intercooler was blocking some flow and it was.

No dynos, no track times. I'm not after max power I'm still on the stock short block. I gave u guys the data I have....I was merely explaining my opinion and my results from my own experiment. You all said my AITs are too high yet SC cars run 250-260, but they are fine? I removed my intercooler and changed nothing else and my psi went from 9.8-10.1 to 12.9-13.1 depending on the time of day. Many ppl have made way more power than me on e85 non-intercooled so I decided to try it and I'm glad I did.

I always saw arguements on here about this subject so I decided to post my experiment and for me.....I like it. Now for u, do what u want and I will do the same.

I have read plenty of places about the pros and cons of an intercooler or meth vs IC. I do have a method of cooling its called E85...multiport alcohol injection.


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post #23 of 66 Old 08-20-2011, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by goatnipples2002 View Post
I did read the thread...I had it bookmarked. Who cares why he doesn't run an intercooler.....the point is he's non-intercooled. Another reason I removed it cause last summer my water temps were in the 220 range now they are way cooler. I thought my intercooler was blocking some flow and it was.

No dynos, no track times. I'm not after max power I'm still on the stock short block. I gave u guys the data I have....I was merely explaining my opinion and my results from my own experiment. You all said my AITs are too high yet SC cars run 250-260, but they are fine? I removed my intercooler and changed nothing else and my psi went from 9.8-10.1 to 12.9-13.1 depending on the time of day. Many ppl have made way more power than me on e85 non-intercooled so I decided to try it and I'm glad I did.

I always saw arguements on here about this subject so I decided to post my experiment and for me.....I like it. Now for u, do what u want and I will do the same.

I have read plenty of places about the pros and cons of an intercooler or meth vs IC. I do have a method cooling its called E85...multiport alcohol injection.
I told you why the PSI went up, it is because you have more heat going into the system, plain and simple. That will cause pressure to go up as well. And just because people HAVE done it without an intercooler, does that mean it is the best setup? Plus from what I have READ about e85 is that it loves timing, so if you could drop your IATs with an intercooler or meth (I prefer intercooler but that just preference) why not do that so you can put more timing into the motor?

I would really like to see a dyno comparison between the two. I would also like to see how the engine responds to repeated pulls on the highway/drag strip. Have you data logged runs with the megasquirt of before and after the intercooler removal? I am interested to see if the megasquirt has any knock counts on a pull.
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post #24 of 66 Old 08-20-2011, 01:16 PM Thread Starter
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I added timing after removing the IC. I run 26* @13psi I took the stock timing map and added 6* across the whole map. My MS isn't setup to pull timing. There are ppl running 30psi with 30* non-IC. I guess all the "crazy" guys are on the other forum.


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post #25 of 66 Old 08-20-2011, 01:50 PM
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I read turbo forums all the time too, it's nothing new to me. Plus how do you know that the intercooler cost you 3 psi? Did you check the boost before and after the intercooler when it was on the car? PV=nRT: Pressure x Volume = number of mols of a molecule x R(a constant) x temperature. You increase temperature, you increase pressure, it's not rocket science, I learned that in freshman chemistry. It's possible that's where your other 3 psi is coming from, yet you kept volume (the amount that matters in stoichiometry/combustion/power) a constant.
It's not quite that simple with turbos. A blower maybe, where impellar speed is constant. But removing the cooler if it was a restriction could effect back pressure and how fast the impeller spins.


No, you don't need an IC for E85 or C16. If you want "X" amount of HP and can reach it without an IC go for it. But the fuel is not impervious to detonation. This was E85
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post #26 of 66 Old 08-20-2011, 02:00 PM
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I added timing after removing the IC. I run 26* @13psi I took the stock timing map and added 6* across the whole map. My MS isn't setup to pull timing. There are ppl running 30psi with 30* non-IC. I guess all the "crazy" guys are on the other forum.
Are they running meth injection? Carburetor? The carb can make a difference by cooler the charge temperatures sooner, as opposed to an injected setup. I know others have done it and others have made it work, but why not post up more data then telling us just that? Get us some EGTs, datalogs, dynos etc. I want to know more about YOUR setup and what other things changed when you went from IC to non-IC. Not trying to call you out, but the more data you share, the more knowledge we all gain. Just sitting here and saying "the other guys did it, they are smarter than you" does nothing for us over here (FYI I am on both boards and many others). People just want to see more data than the fact your IATs went up, we all know that would happen.
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post #27 of 66 Old 08-20-2011, 02:08 PM
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It's not quite that simple with turbos. A blower maybe, where impellar speed is constant. But removing the cooler if it was a restriction could effect back pressure and how fast the impeller spins.


No, you don't need an IC for E85 or C16. If you want "X" amount of HP and can reach it without an IC go for it. But the fuel is not impervious to detonation. This was E85
Damn, that piston got straight jacked. I know that you don't NEED an IC for e85 (didn't know about the C16), but if you have the space/funds/ability to do so, why not? Is there something that says that you actually gain power by not having one?

Also with the boost increase, isn't that dependent on the vacuum source that leads to the wastegate? If the vacuum source was hooked up pre-IC, and he had 13 psi before the IC, and only 10.9 after it (and MAP), then the wastegate would open at the 13 psi. But if his gauge was hooked up to MAP, then it would have showed the 10.9 PSI. I hope I worded that correctly and you see what I am saying.
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post #28 of 66 Old 08-20-2011, 04:10 PM
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Damn, that piston got straight jacked. I know that you don't NEED an IC for e85 (didn't know about the C16), but if you have the space/funds/ability to do so, why not? Is there something that says that you actually gain power by not having one?/
Hell I'd run one too, especially with EFI. Each fuel has an AIT it likes to burn best. Colder is not always better. E85 is pretty resistant to heat because of it's latent heat capabilities. But I wouldn't want my inlets at 200+ on E85 anymore than I would want them at 160 on pump gas. Methanol is one that can make more power with higher inlets. It does not like to be cold.


Quote:
Also with the boost increase, isn't that dependent on the vacuum source that leads to the wastegate? If the vacuum source was hooked up pre-IC, and he had 13 psi before the IC, and only 10.9 after it (and MAP), then the wastegate would open at the 13 psi. But if his gauge was hooked up to MAP, then it would have showed the 10.9 PSI. I hope I worded that correctly and you see what I am saying.
Well, that depends also. If the IC doesn't have any pressure drop, that difference may be nil. Not enough to make the wg act differently. him removing it if it has a huge restriction, could play a role. WG setting are approximations based on vacuum source AND back pressure. That why a spring my say it's good for 10 psi, but you can see different. The back pressure can be high enough it actually bleeds out faster with lower boost levels showing. Sometimes guys put on a bigger AR or a better flowing turbo and the back pressure drops. Then they see high boost because it didn't have the back pressure to force it out the gate.
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post #29 of 66 Old 08-22-2011, 03:28 PM Thread Starter
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If u want more data experiment for urself. I shared what data I have and what I did. Anymore than that I can't help u. I read and talked to many ppl about e85 and not one has issues. If a supercharger puts out AITs around 250* and they are safe why is it so hard to understand that a turbo can do the same? I always take my vac/boost readings from the manifold. Introducing the fuel at a carb level or EFI doesn't make that much difference. I would NEVER do this on a gas car. I'm sure if u ran lean ur piston would look like that.

Ethanol and Methanol aren't really that much different. Check this out.
http://www.sr20-forum.com/turbo/1910...on-vs-e85.html


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Last edited by goatnipples2002; 08-22-2011 at 03:59 PM.
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post #30 of 66 Old 08-22-2011, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by goatnipples2002 View Post
If u want more data experiment for urself. I shared what data I have and what I did. Anymore than that I can't help u. I read and talked to many ppl about e85 and not one has issues. If a supercharger puts out AITs around 250* and they are safe why is it so hard to understand that a turbo can do the same? I always take my vac/boost readings from the manifold. Introducing the fuel at a carb level or EFI doesn't make that much difference. I would NEVER do this on a gas car. I'm sure if u ran lean ur piston would look like that.

Ethanol and Methanol aren't really that much different. Check this out.
Injection vs E85 - SR20 Community Forum - The Dash


Where are you getting your data on IAT's from? The only superchargers I see with IAT's in the 200+ range are Kenne-Bell's and over-spun s-trims on 347's.

But that is beside the point, a over spun s-trim will make more power with an intercooler on it because the IAT's will be lower.


Introducing the fuel via a carburetor makes a tremendous difference vs adding it via a fuel injector. The fuel mist has much longer to cool the inlet charge before reaching the combustion chamber.


The only real data that you've given us is that your IAT's are 100* higher than before and that you needed a bigger radiator in your car.

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post #31 of 66 Old 08-22-2011, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by goatnipples2002 View Post
If u want more data experiment for urself. I shared what data I have and what I did. Anymore than that I can't help u. I read and talked to many ppl about e85 and not one has issues. If a supercharger puts out AITs around 250* and they are safe why is it so hard to understand that a turbo can do the same? I always take my vac/boost readings from the manifold. Introducing the fuel at a carb level or EFI doesn't make that much difference. I would NEVER do this on a gas car. I'm sure if u ran lean ur piston would look like that.

Ethanol and Methanol aren't really that much different. Check this out.
Injection vs E85 - SR20 Community Forum - The Dash
Thanks, dick. Don't know why you can't come up with more data to show why your #### works other than just saying "read more stuff". That means nothing to me and isn't good tech at all. So pretty much your thread is worseless at proving any sort of point other than no intercooler raised your IATs, WHO WOULD HAVE GUESSED!!?!?!? Quit quoting other forums, I don't give a flying #### what they say. I want to see more data about your setup, this is a mustang forum and you have one, so why not try to enlighten people on your setup? It's not like you are using top secret parts. You have persuaded nobody to do what you have done with your car, and at the end of the day, I am still going to run an intercooler on a boosted setup.

Thank you.
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post #32 of 66 Old 08-22-2011, 06:45 PM
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i'll stay intercooled.

a better comparo would of been:
intercooled on 93pump = this HP
vs
intercooled on e85 = this HP
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post #33 of 66 Old 08-22-2011, 08:29 PM
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If a supercharger puts out AITs around 250* and they are safe why is it so hard to understand that a turbo can do the same?
I don't think anyone is saying you can't. I'm not. I'm just of the mindset that if it you have room, and had a cooler, why take it off ?
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post #34 of 66 Old 08-22-2011, 08:54 PM
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I think he's trying to prove that he can make more power without an intercooler than as if he had one. Without track times or even dyno charts it's going to be pretty hard to prove. All I'm seeing is alot of hearsay from "the big dogs" on other forums

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post #35 of 66 Old 08-22-2011, 09:09 PM
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I run both e85 and meth injection. Than is a good combo.

03 Whippled E85 Cobra Vert & 00 ZX12R
4r70w swap in progress 9-1-14

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