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post #1 of 44 Old 06-04-2011, 11:15 AM Thread Starter
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tunning without a chip...

how many of you guys are running turbo fox's with no chip, just tunning with timing, fuel pressure and a wideband?

this is how i was running mine until i stretched the stock head bolts...now im installing felpro 9333 HG's and ARP studs..

i still plan on street tunning my car without a chip on 8 psi

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post #2 of 44 Old 06-04-2011, 04:53 PM
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Hows your driveability on the street? I would think it would be pretty jerky.


89gt, stock bottem end, gt 40 upper and lower, canfield alum heads, 75mm tb, F-cam, 70mm turbo. 3.27 gears,tko-600 tuned aem pms 4
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post #3 of 44 Old 06-04-2011, 11:09 PM
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you'll probably need an FMU

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post #4 of 44 Old 06-04-2011, 11:18 PM Thread Starter
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Hows your driveability on the street? I would think it would be pretty jerky.
it drives as smooth as it did before the turbo...transition into boost is great too..
post #5 of 44 Old 06-04-2011, 11:19 PM Thread Starter
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you'll probably need an FMU

why? i have lucas 42lb injectors, walbro 255, Kirban FPR and innovate LC1
post #6 of 44 Old 06-04-2011, 11:25 PM
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how are u controlling your afr/what r u doing to tune it?spout out cranking up fuel presure
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post #7 of 44 Old 06-04-2011, 11:58 PM Thread Starter
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how are u controlling your afr/what r u doing to tune it?spout out cranking up fuel presure
10 degrees timing (still running with spout in), 42 psi FP with vaccum off...autolite 25 plugs gapped to .032...


nothing fancy but it works and it drives smooth as silk..AFR's were 11.2 at 8 psi....stretched the stock 20 year old head bolts and now upgrading
post #8 of 44 Old 06-05-2011, 11:06 AM
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my car ran like crap without the chip.
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post #9 of 44 Old 06-05-2011, 11:49 AM
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I run spout out timing locked at 22* , fuel pressure is 31 with vaccum.

I know it could be better with a custom tunning ( pms , tweecer ect.. ) its rich at idle and part throttle but WOT its on point and that was my main concern for now.

1990 Notchback stock bottom end , TW's , F cam , Systemax and 66mm in the works.
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post #10 of 44 Old 06-05-2011, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaidedeye View Post
10 degrees timing (still running with spout in), 42 psi FP with vaccum off...autolite 25 plugs gapped to .032...


nothing fancy but it works and it drives smooth as silk..AFR's were 11.2 at 8 psi....stretched the stock 20 year old head bolts and now upgrading
lock the timing at 22* with the spout out. if you have the spout in the computer is added a #### ton of timing witch is to much for iron heads. I think the stock timing map for a fox computer is somewhere in the 35* range up top. lock it at 22* and see what that dose after you put in the new studs and gaskets. your base fuel pressure is fine. are your o2's still pluged in? and i would drop the gap dwon to like .28. are you runing any sorta after market igntion box? what maf are you runing?


1993 GT 357W T76

Last edited by turbocar; 06-05-2011 at 07:23 PM.
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post #11 of 44 Old 06-05-2011, 07:59 PM Thread Starter
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thats the plan on the timing...

yes, my 02's are still hooked up...ive read about alot of people unplugging them...is this a good idea?

im running an MSD blaster coil, no ignition box and a PMAS blow through meter i purchased from power adder solutions in raleigh.

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lock the timing at 22* with the spout out. if you have the spout in the computer is added a #### ton of timing witch is to much for iron heads. I think the stock timing map for a fox computer is somewhere in the 35* range up top. lock it at 22* and see what that dose after you put in the new studs and gaskets. your base fuel pressure is fine. are your o2's still pluged in? and i would drop the gap dwon to like .28. are you runing any sorta after market igntion box? what maf are you runing?
post #12 of 44 Old 06-05-2011, 10:34 PM
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if you were runing like an msd box you could run the gap that big. I would pull it down to .28. the blow thru mass air is perfect. and you could see some better results with the o2's unplugged. the computer will read from the mass air counts when at wot. it wont read of the o2's.

1993 GT 357W T76
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post #13 of 44 Old 06-06-2011, 07:10 AM Thread Starter
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if you were runing like an msd box you could run the gap that big. I would pull it down to .28. the blow thru mass air is perfect. and you could see some better results with the o2's unplugged. the computer will read from the mass air counts when at wot. it wont read of the o2's.
thanks....hey are you on SEFB? my screen name is TMP on there
post #14 of 44 Old 06-06-2011, 10:46 AM
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thanks....hey are you on SEFB? my screen name is TMP on there
yeah im on there, same user name

1993 GT 357W T76
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post #15 of 44 Old 06-09-2011, 01:09 PM
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I've always run my turbo cars without a tune...my last full weight LX ran 9.90s on pump gas with no chip...I had a 255 high pressure pump in the tank and T-rex in line, 42s, a blow-thru MAF, and a crane ignition box that pulled timing under boost...I ran 15 degrees initial timing and pulled 1/2 degree per pound of boost. fuel pressure was set at 42 without vac. I also ran with just locked timing at 20 degrees and it ran just as good but ran hotter around town. Overall driveability was good...it was a little hard to keep idling when cold, but after that, it was great!!!

93 Notch 347 twin 66s TH400...8.54 @ 162 Radials

91 Notch 410W Novi 2000 5 speed...10.99 @ 136
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post #16 of 44 Old 06-10-2011, 09:29 AM
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to the OP, if the car isnt misfiring at high revs under boost leave the gap alone. If you turn the boost up you might misfire and have to get a ign box or lower the gap.

10* spout in is probably too much timing and the plug seems a little hot. Suprised the thing isnt detonating.

stock timing curve runs 26* up top which is fine for your bost level. THe plug seems a tad hot, but if your not getting detonation run with it, If you up the boost any more id definatly get a colder plug and lock the timing or pull back a few degrees spout in.


If the car runs well enough untuned then run with it, every car is different, some run great with no tune and others run like garbage and need tuned.

Brett
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TFS TW heads, f-cam, typhoon
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post #17 of 44 Old 06-13-2011, 08:44 PM
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I ran stock motor/62-1 at 10 psi with no tune for 2 years. 10* timing spout in, PMAS protube had no issues at all.


I have a BTM.. one of the older vortec ones Im selling cheap if your interested. I never used it.

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post #18 of 44 Old 06-17-2011, 08:52 PM
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I am going to guess the PMAS mass air meter is calibrated too help you get that afr. My Pro-M gave me a 13.5 afr, which is what the stock computer was calling for. So, without tuning, it didn't work at all for me.
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post #19 of 44 Old 06-18-2011, 11:32 AM
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I ran no tune for years when I had my 302. I used 3923 plugs, 42lb injectors w/ 255 in tank, and a BTM. Good for 10.50's and drove it all the time.

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post #20 of 44 Old 06-19-2011, 03:08 PM
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i am having issues with my car popping under slight boost and this post is on point with what i am going to try and fix. i have my timing set at 12 with spout in and have a msd btm which i have set at 1 per pound. i have 42's dbx meter 255 intank with a anderson inline boost pump. i have yet to put my wideband on it to see the a/f and will before i try and reall get into boost. the car seems to poop and buck before it even builds boost.
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post #21 of 44 Old 06-19-2011, 06:07 PM
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I went 9.81 @ 139 mph with no chip or tune, just C&L 76mm MAF, 42 lb injectors, 43 lb fuel pressure (vac off) and 22 psi (67mm turbo) on a Dart 347 w/ RPM heads. I had my timing locked at 26* with 91/110 gas mix. It drove like a champ and didn't hiccup at all. I would drive 20 miles to the track and back home, never any issues.

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post #22 of 44 Old 07-05-2011, 11:14 PM
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what was your afr like under boost and what kind of pump were u using
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post #23 of 44 Old 07-06-2011, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 97SVT View Post
I ran no tune for years when I had my 302. I used 3923 plugs, 42lb injectors w/ 255 in tank, and a BTM. Good for 10.50's and drove it all the time.
what plug gap are you running? My exact list of parts tryin to figure this thing out untuned
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post #24 of 44 Old 07-06-2011, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 87Saleen209 View Post
I went 9.81 @ 139 mph with no chip or tune, just C&L 76mm MAF, 42 lb injectors, 43 lb fuel pressure (vac off) and 22 psi (67mm turbo) on a Dart 347 w/ RPM heads. I had my timing locked at 26* with 91/110 gas mix. It drove like a champ and didn't hiccup at all. I would drive 20 miles to the track and back home, never any issues.
Nice setup!
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post #25 of 44 Old 07-07-2011, 08:59 AM
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The car we built was an exploder long block, b cam to start, f cam now. 39lb terminator injectors, 255 walbro, blow through pmas calibrated for 39s. on 3 70mm kit with an aem wideband. We put an FMU carried over from a blower setup with I believe a 6:1 disc and bumped base fuel pressure with an aeromotive FPR. Car runs great and holds 11-11.5:1 under boost, cruises 14-15:1. Timing is set at 27 degrees with a BTM pulling 1 degree per pound.

I'd be reluctant to try it without the FMU, but sounds like you guys are having good luck that way.

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post #26 of 44 Old 08-04-2011, 01:37 PM
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So im totally new to all this. I just accuired a 91 GT with a 306, SRP pistons, I beam rods, Trick flow track heads, Systemax intake with a spacer (so it will clear the valve covers) F cam, 42# injectors, 75mm throttle body, 75mm blow thru mass air, 255 pump in the tank, fuel pressure regulator at 41#, 2- 61mm turbos.

So, I bought this car knowing it had a running issue. it had a blown headgasket and 2 pistons has a peice missing (im assuming because the ring end gap was too tight).

also I could tell that one of the heads was moving from the colrong around the head gasket.

So finally heres my question, is this because of running lean up top? The car was running 12 psi and running pretty good. He bumped it up to 14 psi and this happened.

Im wanting to make it right and am wondering about the tuning. Ive looked and looked thru here so I wouldnt be asking dumb questions. So please no "use the search dumbazz" replies

thanks
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post #27 of 44 Old 08-04-2011, 01:39 PM
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And by the way, the last run the car made before acting up was a 6.70 in the 1/8th....
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post #28 of 44 Old 08-04-2011, 04:19 PM
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KTM... I would say too much motor/boost for the small fuel system... 42s are fine for what i was running.. STOCK motor and only a single 62-1


twin 62-1's with a 306 and h/c/i you gonna need way more then 42s...

I would suggest 60's..

it went way lean and detonated causing the piston to explode.. it could have been ring gap but usually IF its lean/blowin headgaskets it more then likely took the piston out with it..

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post #29 of 44 Old 08-04-2011, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by ktm300hater View Post
So im totally new to all this. I just accuired a 91 GT with a 306, SRP pistons, I beam rods, Trick flow track heads, Systemax intake with a spacer (so it will clear the valve covers) F cam, 42# injectors, 75mm throttle body, 75mm blow thru mass air, 255 pump in the tank, fuel pressure regulator at 41#, 2- 61mm turbos.

So, I bought this car knowing it had a running issue. it had a blown headgasket and 2 pistons has a peice missing (im assuming because the ring end gap was too tight).

also I could tell that one of the heads was moving from the colrong around the head gasket.

So finally heres my question, is this because of running lean up top? The car was running 12 psi and running pretty good. He bumped it up to 14 psi and this happened.

Im wanting to make it right and am wondering about the tuning. Ive looked and looked thru here so I wouldnt be asking dumb questions. So please no "use the search dumbazz" replies

thanks
Not enough fuel and or to much timing. The pistons missing pieces off them is from detonation. Sounds like you have a blown HG as well. I wonder what the bearings look like. They might have taken a beating for sure.

New build in progress: Twin Gen 2 PT6466 352

Old combo:352 single 76mm turbo, 16psi, AOD, 9.41 @ 149mph, E85, 255/50/16 MT DR, 3500lb STREET car driven everywhere.
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post #30 of 44 Old 08-05-2011, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by 87Saleen209 View Post
I went 9.81 @ 139 mph with no chip or tune, just C&L 76mm MAF, 42 lb injectors, 43 lb fuel pressure (vac off) and 22 psi (67mm turbo) on a Dart 347 w/ RPM heads. I had my timing locked at 26* with 91/110 gas mix. It drove like a champ and didn't hiccup at all. I would drive 20 miles to the track and back home, never any issues.
What is the vacuum off referring to in this post?

thanks
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post #31 of 44 Old 08-05-2011, 04:45 PM
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What is the vacuum off referring to in this post?

thanks
setting the fuel pressure with the vac off..... with the vac off the fuel pressure is higher then with vac... fuel pressure reg is vac/boost referenced.



87saleen209... I have seen many untuned stock motor or stock block turbo cars but NEVER a Dart 347...congrats nice times.

what fuel pump do you run? at that boost your running 65 psi fuel pressure with that much power and no issues it must be a good one lol just wondering as Im looking into going bigger then my 255lph high pressure.

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post #32 of 44 Old 09-05-2011, 07:18 PM Thread Starter
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setting the fuel pressure with the vac off..... with the vac off the fuel pressure is higher then with vac... fuel pressure reg is vac/boost referenced.



87saleen209... I have seen many untuned stock motor or stock block turbo cars but NEVER a Dart 347...congrats nice times.

what fuel pump do you run? at that boost your running 65 psi fuel pressure with that much power and no issues it must be a good one lol just wondering as Im looking into going bigger then my 255lph high pressure.
take a look at the new Aeromotive 340 in tank stealth pump.
post #33 of 44 Old 09-05-2011, 08:24 PM
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take a look at the new Aeromotive 340 in tank stealth pump.
I keep reading about problems with those pumps.

New build in progress: Twin Gen 2 PT6466 352

Old combo:352 single 76mm turbo, 16psi, AOD, 9.41 @ 149mph, E85, 255/50/16 MT DR, 3500lb STREET car driven everywhere.
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post #34 of 44 Old 09-06-2011, 12:41 PM
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post #35 of 44 Old 09-16-2011, 10:52 AM Thread Starter
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ok guys....i have an issue....i set my timing at 22 degrees with spout out, BTM set to 1, 8 psi, FP at 42 with vac off, O2 sensors unplugged......

car idles rock solid at 800 rpm, idle is rich at 12.9....but drives beautifully and crusing AFR's are 13.8-15.0

Problem: when i go into boost my AFR settle down at 13.4 at WOT...i let off and set the BTM to 3.....rolled into boost again.....same thing. car did not misfire or detonate and pulled HARD..

Question....will the BTM not pull timing if the spout on the distributor is left out? or should i bump the FP up and pull back the timing a few degrees?
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