Whats the goal when gearing a turbo car? - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
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post #1 of 95 Old 05-04-2011, 10:40 AM Thread Starter
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Whats the goal when gearing a turbo car?

Turbo game is new to me, will be shooting for 460ish whp. Now 3.73s would put me at roughly 128 at 6200 but that seems steeper than most of the cars on the site. Is the goal different when the cars turbo? As far as trap/rpm

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post #2 of 95 Old 05-04-2011, 12:25 PM
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Turbo cars tend to make alot of low end power. That is why you see all the 3.27 gear ratios. Not such an advantage to tach them up that much many times.
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post #3 of 95 Old 05-04-2011, 01:06 PM Thread Starter
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So how do I go about choosing the right gear? Goals mid to lowish 10s at high 120s
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post #4 of 95 Old 05-04-2011, 01:19 PM
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What are the ratios of your current transmission?
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post #5 of 95 Old 05-04-2011, 01:34 PM Thread Starter
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Why does that matter if 4th is 1:1? Its a t5
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post #6 of 95 Old 05-04-2011, 02:21 PM
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I have a C4 & I just changed 3.73's back to 3.27's & all I can say is WOW night & day!!
Now it has time to build boost.....Before 1st gear would be up before a got across the intersection! ....Blowing the tires off of course! Now it pulls WAYYYYY longer & harder DR's & I'm sure I'm rolling 10's

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post #7 of 95 Old 05-04-2011, 04:52 PM
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I would think if your gearing for the track your goal would be wanting to be at your target RPM going through the traps
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post #8 of 95 Old 05-04-2011, 04:59 PM Thread Starter
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Which would put me at a 373 which nobody runs turbo...
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post #9 of 95 Old 05-04-2011, 05:00 PM
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The goal would be more load so you can make boost faster, and freight train the top end!

HAHA
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post #10 of 95 Old 05-04-2011, 05:02 PM
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I am currently running a 373, but I have not made a pass with the turbo. I had 275/50/15's and 373's on spray with a C4 and my shift light came on at about the 1000' mark. I got a set of 275/60's and I'm going to make some low boost passes to see where I'm at.

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post #11 of 95 Old 05-04-2011, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Jenna View Post
The goal would be more load so you can make boost faster, and freight train the top end!

HAHA
wouldn't more gear net you better 60' times? I'm torn between 355's or 327's. Figure I will see where it stands now with the 373's and go from there
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post #12 of 95 Old 05-04-2011, 05:25 PM
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When I swapped from 3.73 to 3.27 my car felt like it picked up 50rw, this was when my car ran 11's and I drove it daily.

I go 1.4 60's on a DR and a 3.27, leaving on no boost. Power, transmission, and suspension play in also. Point being you can 60' decent on that gear, heck my car should go 1.3's.

I would def NOT run a 3.73 gear in my turbo stang...400rw or 700rw. Just me.

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post #13 of 95 Old 05-04-2011, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackn2ocoupe View Post
I am currently running a 373, but I have not made a pass with the turbo. I had 275/50/15's and 373's on spray with a C4 and my shift light came on at about the 1000' mark. I got a set of 275/60's and I'm going to make some low boost passes to see where I'm at.
3.27 or 3.55 would work great in your car imop.

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post #14 of 95 Old 05-04-2011, 08:49 PM Thread Starter
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lol sup dude met you at keiths shop. Anyways, still dunno where the goal is as far as trap/crossing rpm since im not shooting for redline anymore
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post #15 of 95 Old 05-04-2011, 10:43 PM
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I have run both 3.55 and 3.27's in my car. I will echo that a turbo car works better with load on the motor. I have the 27's in the car now even though I don't need the mph. The car builds boost better and goes a pretty high mph. I tested both in a 331/78mm combo also and the car liked the 3.27s then also.

If it is an automatic you really have to watch converter slip. Straight gear ratio based math doesn't apply. You can be losing 3 to as much as 15 % to converter slippage. Most of the transmissions used have a 1:1 final drive ratio but the converter slippage can have a major impact on realistic mph at the top end.

With a 3.27 and the C4 I can drive all over the place on the street and the car feels great.

Turbo cars don't follow the same logic as a NA car. Don't go down the path of that thinking.

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post #16 of 95 Old 05-04-2011, 11:43 PM Thread Starter
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which is why I made this thread.... so 3.27s for a mid 400 whp turbo car sound reasonable?
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post #17 of 95 Old 05-04-2011, 11:53 PM
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Yes, reasonable and in line with what most are using with similar setups.

Mike

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post #18 of 95 Old 05-05-2011, 09:52 AM
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3.31 and done....

I came, I saw, I gave her a towel......
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post #19 of 95 Old 05-05-2011, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blue93hatch View Post
lol sup dude met you at keiths shop. Anyways, still dunno where the goal is as far as trap/crossing rpm since im not shooting for redline anymore

Good deal, was it awhile back?

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post #20 of 95 Old 05-05-2011, 10:33 PM
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If you want the faster quarter mile times possible turbo or otherwise... You want to gear the car to where your crossing the line at around peak HP in your final gear (usually 1:1)

Heck most decent running N/A motors with a lower rear gear will spin tires, so take that and once you have a turbo hit with boost it just keeps spinning and it harder to stop.

The way i look at it is, with the lower gears your motor sort of "outruns" the turbo in a sense. Guys claim all day that higher ratio gears spool the turbo faster but in reality it isnt, with just a simple gear swap...your not bringing any more air or fuel into the motor, meaning your not putting any more energy into the exhaust going into the turbo, so HOW can the turbo spool faster. I dont see it doing that.

What does happen is when you put higher ratio gears in, your loading the car more, so when you romp on it, the higher load causes the RPMs to not climb as fast as the motor is working harder, so when the turbo does spool it will be at a lower RPM, since with lower gears, in that given time from when you romped on it, your RPMS may be a few hundred RPM higher.

So this is where there is the illusion of a faster spool, the turbo still spools the same, its just your bogging your motor down so when it does spool up its at a lower rev.

On the street it can feel like a huge difference, but when i get to thinking, how can a car pull HARDER when your reducing the torque multiplication through the drivetrain by putting a higher gear ratio in. Doesnt make sense. I am thinking the reason the cars feel faster is because your actually able to get traction and better utlilize your gears and such. (a hooking car feels/is quicker then a spinning one)

For example my car when i first put my turbo setup on, it had 3.90s, when i turned the boost up to 12 psi. the car couldnt get traction once the turbo spooled. until 4th gear, then it pulled crazy hard and then hit the rev limiter.

After gear swap I could actually use my gears down lower but it did lose pull on the top end. On the street no doubt the car runs better, its got enough, it helps to stretch the gearing out to actually accelerate the car real fast.
With the lower gears its pulls harder but once you hit your top gear your done.

Now at the track ASSUMING you can spool the turbo off the line, with a 2step or transbrake. Your going to pull off a faster time with the lower gear ratio you can get in the car assuming you have the ability to turn the RPM and not run out of gear.

Theres no magical thing going on causing a turbo car to pull harder with higher ratio gears, what happens with you put higher gears in a N/A car, it slows down, same with the turbo, its just power.... what you are affecting is the spool characteristics and can make the boost more usable.

On a street car, with limited traction on street tires, the higher gears are the ticket, better driving manners and just overall works good and can still bust off awesome times at the track.

If a pure drag car that gets awesome traction and assuming you dont have spool to worry about off the line, gear it as low as you can without running out of gear with your setup and RPM. that will net you the fastest times.


to the OP with mid 400s HP, id say 3.27s or 3.55s if its a street car. Just drive the car with the 3.73s and see how it feels, if its hooks up alright and works for your car, run that for a while. Dont just jump on the turbo high ratio gear bandwagon just because every other guy with a turbo runs em. Set your car up with what it likes.

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post #21 of 95 Old 05-05-2011, 10:44 PM
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I have run both 3:55 & 3:27 in my car with the stock T5. Car ran 118mph with the 3:55 and 123mph with the 3:27. Damn et was basically the same. I'd say use the following. I run a 255/55R16 Mickey Thompson Drag radial 26"

450 HP or lower
3:55

450 HP or more
3:27

My car felt better with the 3:55 only because I dont feel I have quite the power to run the 3:27 at the track you have to leave at like 4500k rpm to cut a decent 60'

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post #22 of 95 Old 05-05-2011, 11:09 PM
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It is simple math... What feels better doesn't mean it is better!!!! I have went both ways 4.10 to 3.27 with a 525whp turbo 5 speed.... My car was heavy and turbo wasnt the correct size for power, the 3.27 killed the car I had them less then a week before i swapped the 4.10's back in...

Also had a 4.10 in a lighter fox with a powerglide and a t76 and it was a perfect combo... Had a few friends go to a steeper gear and pick up time at the track..

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post #23 of 95 Old 05-05-2011, 11:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxfan88 View Post
If you want the faster quarter mile times possible turbo or otherwise... You want to gear the car to where your crossing the line at around peak HP in your final gear (usually 1:1)
In theory yes, but in practice you have to think about how the car accelerates while going down the track, not just the rpm as it crosses the line at the top end. If you can get the car to work better launching and accelerating, you may have a lower ET crossing the finish line at a more moderate rpm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by foxfan88 View Post
Theres no magical thing going on causing a turbo car to pull harder with higher ratio gears, what happens with you put higher gears in a N/A car, it slows down, same with the turbo, its just power.... what you are affecting is the spool characteristics and can make the boost more usable.
No, there really isn't magic. There are very significant differences in terms of:
a) How a turbo car makes power vs. an NA car or a supercharged car.
b) The torque and HP curve of a high hp turbo car looks very different

If you are scientific in how you tune, and set a car up based on that knowledge, these points become obvious. You can dyno a turbo car and observe the torque and hp curves. Granted all cars are different, but even on high hp turbo cars you will see a broader and flatter torque/hp curve then a high revving NA car. You then need to study data logs from actual passes, and observe real track behavior. Dynos aren't a true simulation of launching and accelerating down a track.

This reality combined with a car only building boost under load, makes a turbo car much better suited for less number of forward gears (for example, the use of PG's on many fast cars) and shallow gears that allow the car to stay in gear and loaded. If you view a datalog of a 3 speed car with steep gears, and vs a 2 speed car with shallow gears you will likely find that the latter is in the area of the power curve with the most power, and is making max boost for more time during the run then one with more shifts and steeper gears.

An NA car is NOT the same, it is exactly the opposite. Narrow peak power area under the curve, and a lot of value in steep gears, and stick transmission that hold the car in the narrow area of peak power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by foxfan88 View Post
On a street car, with limited traction on street tires, the higher gears are the ticket, better driving manners and just overall works good and can still bust off awesome times at the track.

If a pure drag car that gets awesome traction and assuming you dont have spool to worry about off the line, gear it as low as you can without running out of gear with your setup and RPM. that will net you the fastest times.


to the OP with mid 400s HP, id say 3.27s or 3.55s if its a street car. Just drive the car with the 3.73s and see how it feels, if its hooks up alright and works for your car, run that for a while. Dont just jump on the turbo high ratio gear bandwagon just because every other guy with a turbo runs em. Set your car up with what it likes.
The purpose of asking questions on a board like this is to listen to people who have done this already. I thought I had some higher knowledge on a number of things and that is why I have now changed gears twice, turbo once, and built a motor over. Now, because I really don't want to listen, I have the 4th alternator I have purchased sitting in the garage waiting to go on and a couple of amusing overspun paperweights.

My next act of stupidity is going to be spending $6k on a powerglide setup after I defiantly told everyone that I wanted to put a C4 in the car for perceived driveability reasons...

PS: 3.31 is a good alternative too, and there are a lot of these floating around now from 05+ cars.

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post #24 of 95 Old 05-07-2011, 12:38 AM
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The way i see it, yes a turbo car will have a flatter broader torque curve, but i dont see why its different than N/A, just it will be able to pull harder at lowers rpms if its making good power down lower. It will benefit from low gears the same as a N/A car does. swapping the higher gears in the turbo car wont be as detrimental to the low rpm pull of the car like the N/A setup because it will have the fatter power down low like you said.

I dont know of any lower gears cars that cant get the car loaded good enough to make boost. its not like your going to have higher ratio gears and be loading the car good and then swap a lower ratio in and it suddenly not be able make boost because there is no load. there is still plenty of load to spool it.

power is power in my mind, just different ways of delivering it.
lower gears increause torque multiplication throught the drivetrain, and assuming traction. it will accelerate faster/harder pull.

I know what your saying on asking for help but while there is tons of great info to be had. There are lots of guys who just cookie cut and follow what everyone tells them and put no thought into what they are doing, and why.

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post #25 of 95 Old 05-07-2011, 02:53 AM
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Not the greatest example, but something I noticed in my TINY IHI turbo equipped 88 Thunderbird Turbo Coupe, with a 3.97 first gear T5, and 3.55's in the rear, it wouldnt make full boost except for maybe at the last possible fraction of a second in first gear. Thats rolling into it, not leaving off of a two step, and with minimal if no tire spin.

Hell I have seen big power non turbo vehicles pick up with LESS GEAR at times (let alone turbo cars), and thats in a vehicle that was 1/8 mile racing for the most part, and not going through the traps at too high of an rpm, and not suffering from traction issues. It did make a retarded amount of torque across the board though.

The other side of this coin is the Evo's and other imports seem to be AGGRESSIVELY geared via transmission, final drive, AND short tires, and it seems to work for them. I think it's a case of them running larger turbos, and turning ALOT of rpms, and needing to get to a specific rpm range ASAP to get the turbo spooled. Most of them do not spool until a stupidly high rpm on those little motors.
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post #26 of 95 Old 05-29-2011, 12:55 PM
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just swapped out my 3.55's for 3.27's in my notch and i'm in love. still running a 5 speed for now. when i go automatic i may go back to 3.55 because of the insanely long gears in a powerglide, but for a 5 speed or even a C4 3.27 or 3.31 is the way to go. longer gears, more time between shifts, more time in the peak hp/tq/boost range, everything is better with a 3.27. yeah a 3.55 feels fast as hell in a 5 speed, ripping through the gears faster than you can comprehend, makes you sick to your stomach, wastegate screaming bov going crazy, yeah wonderful but how fast are you really going? not very. 3.27 is more calm and you pick up speed a lot faster. granted this is with a 750hp car which is a little different but you get the point. turbo cars like long gears. end of story.

a little shout-out to foxfan88: there is a reason people follow the "cookie-cutter" way of building turbo v8's.... there's 100 ways to do something, but one way works best. why not do it?
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post #27 of 95 Old 06-01-2011, 01:21 PM
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Im sort of faced with the same dilema.
My combo will look like this;
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stock bottom end 302
Holley heads/intake
stock cam, 1.72 rockers, probably retarded 4 degrees (has E cam now)
Precicion 72mm, center .84 housing
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I run the typical 3.73's with 26's now. Stepping up to 325 DR's (28").
The problem with switchin to steeper gears is the 600 trannys have a 2.86 first. She's gonna want to fall on her face when I let the clutch out I think.
But maybe not with the small housing and a 2 step. I dont know..
I have another assembled rear with 3.55's in, so I can start by switching that in if I need. And the 3.73 rear is whining anyway, so I can put 3.27's in that if it all works out..

Anybody else running a TKO 6 with a turbo?


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post #28 of 95 Old 06-02-2011, 04:51 AM
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With a manual a taller gear seems to work best so you CAN accelerate in lower gears..
I find if gears are too short I don't have too much boost till third gear.
That's if I can keep traction...
Turbo's build massive torque the more they are loaded up..
The engine load really speeds up exhaust pressure..
Which is totally different to N/A and S/C engines..
3:27's on TKO 3800 Lb car with 245 S/R's...

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post #29 of 95 Old 06-09-2011, 03:20 PM
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Anybody else running a TKO 6 with a turbo?[/QUOTE]


I ran a tko 600 in my last turbo car with 3.73's and 28 x 12.50 ET Streets...it had a similar combo to yours and it would run easy 10.50s @ 138 in the quarter (no powershifting, just launching it at 5500 and no 2-step)...it would just barely make it through the traps at 6200...In my mind it was perfect!! I think my best 60' was a 1.48, but it usually cut 1.50s. It was a monster on the street also...crotch-rockets didn't stand a chance from or dig or a roll on the highway!

93 Notch 347 twin 66s TH400...8.54 @ 162 Radials

91 Notch 410W Novi 2000 5 speed...10.99 @ 136
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post #30 of 95 Old 06-13-2011, 12:39 AM
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Quote:
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Anybody else running a TKO 6 with a turbo?

I ran a tko 600 in my last turbo car with 3.73's and 28 x 12.50 ET Streets...it had a similar combo to yours and it would run easy 10.50s @ 138 in the quarter (no powershifting, just launching it at 5500 and no 2-step)...it would just barely make it through the traps at 6200...In my mind it was perfect!! I think my best 60' was a 1.48, but it usually cut 1.50s. It was a monster on the street also...crotch-rockets didn't stand a chance from or dig or a roll on the highway! [/QUOTE]

I hope I'm not highjacking at this point, I'm def interested, but maybe we could all learn from more details about how your car was built??


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post #31 of 95 Old 06-13-2011, 11:08 AM
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I hope I'm not highjacking at this point, I'm def interested, but maybe we could all learn from more details about how your car was built??[/QUOTE]

I'll write up my old combo tonight after work for everyone....

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post #32 of 95 Old 06-13-2011, 11:08 PM
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Posts: 1,768
This was my 9 second street car combo:

92 LX weighed 3380 with me in it...it was a tank!
2-bolt 306, 8.5 to1 compression, Edelbrock Performer RPM heads (no porting), Edelbrock Performer RPM2 intake, 70 mm TB, small turbo cam from Comp Cams, big fuel system w/42 lb injectors, Lupo transbraked C-4 w/3200 stall convertor, 3.27 gears, 31 spline drag axles, spool, and of course: Cartech Outlaw turbo kit w/66 mm turbonetics turbo and full 3" exhaust. I launched at 15 psi off the brake on slicks...best 60' was a 1.34...what a rush that was!!! Best ET was 9.94 @ 140...this was back in 2004...since then, I've got married and had 2 kids, sold the car and have never had a fast Mustang since...

Oh well, someday I'll have something that flies again.

93 Notch 347 twin 66s TH400...8.54 @ 162 Radials

91 Notch 410W Novi 2000 5 speed...10.99 @ 136
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post #33 of 95 Old 06-15-2011, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Radrick50 View Post
This was my 9 second street car combo:

92 LX weighed 3380 with me in it...it was a tank!
2-bolt 306, 8.5 to1 compression, Edelbrock Performer RPM heads (no porting), Edelbrock Performer RPM2 intake, 70 mm TB, small turbo cam from Comp Cams, big fuel system w/42 lb injectors, Lupo transbraked C-4 w/3200 stall convertor, 3.27 gears, 31 spline drag axles, spool, and of course: Cartech Outlaw turbo kit w/66 mm turbonetics turbo and full 3" exhaust. I launched at 15 psi off the brake on slicks...best 60' was a 1.34...what a rush that was!!! Best ET was 9.94 @ 140...this was back in 2004...since then, I've got married and had 2 kids, sold the car and have never had a fast Mustang since...

Oh well, someday I'll have something that flies again.
15lb out the hole i bet that was fun nice times
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post #34 of 95 Old 06-16-2011, 09:47 PM
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what gears do you guys think I should use? I live in colorado its a mile high,so the cars here are slower than any other place in the states,my car dyno 746hp /813 torque,i have full power at 4800 RPMs and it stops making power, around 5600 RPMs,so I took it to the track and I am getting a 1.58 60 ft, and trappin 129 MPH,but am crossing the track @ 6300 RPMs,
I have 28" tall tires,TKO 600,373 gears

Last edited by 88 T tops; 06-16-2011 at 09:57 PM.
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post #35 of 95 Old 06-16-2011, 10:31 PM
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what gears do you guys think I should use? I live in colorado its a mile high,so the cars here are slower than any other place in the states,my car dyno 746hp /813 torque,i have full power at 4800 RPMs and it stops making power, around 5600 RPMs,so I took it to the track and I am getting a 1.58 60 ft, and trappin 129 MPH,but am crossing the track @ 6300 RPMs,
I have 28" tall tires,TKO 600,373 gears
3.55s

93 Notch 347 twin 66s TH400...8.54 @ 162 Radials

91 Notch 410W Novi 2000 5 speed...10.99 @ 136
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