On3 Kit + pte6765 billet slow spool - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
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post #1 of 61 Old 08-17-2010, 01:52 AM Thread Starter
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On3 Kit + pte6765 billet slow spool

Hey guys,
I had an appointment at the dyno today and we had some trouble getting the turbo to spool like it should. It has a .68 exhaust housing so it should be coming in waay sooner than it is. What do you guys think is causing this? Tuner said he thought the motor seemed good and strong and it was making target boost just really late. We stopped at 10psi because with more boost it just made it more laggy across the board. Could it be the on3 wastegate is opening way to early? I have an aem truboost boost controller and can try to set the wastegate crack pressure higher. There is the stock spring in the wastegate which is only like 4.5 psi could this be the problem? Or possibly pre turbo exhaust leak or something? We fixed all the cold side boost leaks but the little bleeder screw on the top of the idle air control motor leaks boost, is there anything to be done about that? I attached a pic of the graph with the boost level on the bottom. Any help would be great.
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post #2 of 61 Old 08-17-2010, 01:58 AM
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Did you check for hotside leaks?V-bands leaks?


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post #3 of 61 Old 08-17-2010, 02:33 AM
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Add small yello springs inside wastegate, make sure your boost controller is setup right, check for leak pre turbo. Your small turbo lagging big time, what rearend gears do you have ?

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post #4 of 61 Old 08-17-2010, 02:42 AM
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cold side leaks wont make it late spool... hot side leaks make it late spool.

fix the hot side leaks

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post #5 of 61 Old 08-17-2010, 07:51 AM
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You should be able to hear pre-turbo leaks, it wouldn't be quiet. Agree that this is the first thing you should check

I would carefully inspect the waste gate. I had one of mine come apart slightly on my car and it had a similar effect to what you are describing, it would still make boost but ramped very slow. There was a set screw inside mine that came loose, allowing the valve to stay partially open even when the spring pressure was against it. Make sure it is seated completely flush when closed.

I would think that waste gate spring pressure not being high enough would cause the opposite problem, it would spool normally but then the gate would open quicker then you wanted it to as back pressure increases with higher rpm/higher boost. My gut says it probably isn't spring pressure causing the problem. (yes, I have had this issue also, car wouldn't go over a certain boost level without backpressure opening the gates).

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post #6 of 61 Old 08-17-2010, 10:30 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the responses. I will look for hot side leaks today. It would have to be a fairly sizeable leak/leaks to make it spool this late wouldn't it? And After that I will change the wastegate spring as that can't hurt I'm sure. Boost controller is setup right and we tried no boost controller and a manual boost controller on the dyno with basically the same results. The car has 3.73s
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post #7 of 61 Old 08-17-2010, 11:15 AM
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only other thins that could be wrong, is the waste gate isnt sealed up correctly. like the firing ring is damaged or missing.

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post #8 of 61 Old 08-17-2010, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 01GTurbo View Post
The car has 3.73s
That's going to hurt spool. 3.25's would be better for ya. Cold side leaks will cause it to spool slower. You won't loose boost like a blower because the turbo will just spin faster to hit the target boost level. But cold side leaks will definitely slow it along with that gearing. My customer has 10 psi all in by 2600 and that A/R, and you have a better turbo.
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post #9 of 61 Old 08-17-2010, 12:57 PM Thread Starter
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Even with the 373s I should be spooling a lot quicker still though. I will look to correct as many leaks a possible and see if I can improve it. Just checked the fire ring and the wg is out of the car. Everything looks fine. Going to change the spring and fix leaks and take it out and see if it changes things.
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post #10 of 61 Old 08-17-2010, 02:15 PM
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It can have a good effect sometimes because a dyno doesn't always make a turbo spool as fast as it should anyways. Dynoed in 4th gear yeah ?

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post #11 of 61 Old 08-17-2010, 02:25 PM Thread Starter
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yes sir. Just put the red spring in the wastegate. It says in the instructions that the red adds 3 psi and the stock one was making 4.6 psi but maybe it wasn't making as much cause of the leaks?
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post #12 of 61 Old 08-17-2010, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by 01GTurbo View Post
yes sir. Just put the red spring in the wastegate. It says in the instructions that the red adds 3 psi and the stock one was making 4.6 psi but maybe it wasn't making as much cause of the leaks?
box stock be should be 6 psi

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post #13 of 61 Old 08-17-2010, 05:12 PM Thread Starter
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Would this be a sign of a major exhaust leak pre turbo?
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post #14 of 61 Old 08-17-2010, 05:49 PM
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That's going to hurt spool. 3.25's would be better for ya. Cold side leaks will cause it to spool slower. You won't loose boost like a blower because the turbo will just spin faster to hit the target boost level. But cold side leaks will definitely slow it along with that gearing. My customer has 10 psi all in by 2600 and that A/R, and you have a better turbo.
Trying to figure out how the gears would have anything to do with it? I am assuming he's in 4th gear on a dyno, so sounds a little off to me. I get it on the street in the 1st couple of gears, but not on the dyno in 4th gear.

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post #15 of 61 Old 08-17-2010, 06:11 PM
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Goat-ee, loading the engine is what causes the thing to spool. And it's not RPM related either.That's why when you drive, and even take it to 4k with no load, a turbo doesn't spool. You have to put your foot in it so the engine sees load. The harder you load an engine, the lower the same engine will spool. Some dyno's don't load enough to even see full boost some times. It's like a 10 speed. Take off in 2nd gear or 8th. 8th will see a higher load on your legs than 2nd. 3.25's will load the engine harder, and spool sooner. There is the trade off with acceleration and spool time. That happy medium you have to find out for your own car, but most are happy 3.20-3.40 depending on tire size.

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post #16 of 61 Old 08-17-2010, 09:29 PM Thread Starter
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Ok so now I'm a little confused. In the on3 wastegate do you add the yellow red or blue spring in addition to the out of the box spring? Cause I just swapped the out of the box spring for the red one and it seemed stiffer when I forced the gate open with my fingers.
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post #17 of 61 Old 08-18-2010, 12:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goat-ee View Post
Trying to figure out how the gears would have anything to do with it? I am assuming he's in 4th gear on a dyno, so sounds a little off to me. I get it on the street in the 1st couple of gears, but not on the dyno in 4th gear.
Load is what you want to make turbo spool faster, I have 3.73 gear and I hate it. With power I am making it's useless , if I had stock 3.27 it will have be nice.

This is why I do only 4th gear freeway pull , with 3.73 gear I am on boot and out of boost before I know it, 7k comes way too fast with shorter gear, if I had 3.27 I could ride my boost much longer.

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post #18 of 61 Old 08-18-2010, 12:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 01GTurbo View Post
Ok so now I'm a little confused. In the on3 wastegate do you add the yellow red or blue spring in addition to the out of the box spring? Cause I just swapped the out of the box spring for the red one and it seemed stiffer when I forced the gate open with my fingers.
I think stock springs in wastegate are little painted red, just add small yellow springs. Those other blue springs are red small are not needed.

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Best pass to date 8.92 at 156mph. Best 1/8 mile 5.6at 127 mph.
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post #19 of 61 Old 08-18-2010, 01:11 AM Thread Starter
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Add the yellow for what boost level? They are for different boost levels for red yellow or blue. So would I use say yellow and the stock spring for 7 psi? and red and stock for like 9 psi? I guess I can just run the car hard and see what it makes with just the small red spring and the boost soleniod off.
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post #20 of 61 Old 08-18-2010, 01:34 AM Thread Starter
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Also, what do you do about the little bleeder screw on the top of the idle air control motor? When we tested for cold side leaks it was leaking pressure but I didn't know if anything could be done about it?
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post #21 of 61 Old 08-18-2010, 03:40 AM
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Trying to figure out how the gears would have anything to do with it? I am assuming he's in 4th gear on a dyno, so sounds a little off to me. I get it on the street in the 1st couple of gears, but not on the dyno in 4th gear.
going from 4.10s to say 3.55's, makes it spool way different! putting the load agaisnt it builds the pressure faster. most cars i dont go above a 3.55 , and only then with a tall tire in the rear.

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post #22 of 61 Old 08-18-2010, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by 01GTurbo View Post
Add the yellow for what boost level? They are for different boost levels for red yellow or blue. So would I use say yellow and the stock spring for 7 psi? and red and stock for like 9 psi? I guess I can just run the car hard and see what it makes with just the small red spring and the boost soleniod off.
When I did stock red wastegate springs and small yellow springs it pulled 8.5 psi. Blew big springs is stiff and will net you 10 psi. Small red I never used it, now somehow I lost my springs. I am using stock wastegate and yellow springs with mbc to net me 20 psi .

Even with my .96 exhaust housing boost comes on at 3k and hits hard to 20 psi at 4k rpm, make sure all your clamps are tight as possible.

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post #23 of 61 Old 08-18-2010, 04:04 PM
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[QUOTE=2002mustanggt;10009524]When I did stock red wastegate springs and small yellow springs it pulled 8.5 psi. Blew big springs is stiff and will net you 10 psi. Small red I never used it, now somehow I lost my springs. I am using stock wastegate and yellow springs with mbc to net me 20 psi .

blew???? are you saying blue spring gave you 10PSI im confusied.. i thought 5 lbs or so with da blue!
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post #24 of 61 Old 08-18-2010, 07:39 PM Thread Starter
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I plugged one of my exhaust pipes and put a leaf blower in the other and found that both connections of the kit pipes to the headers were leaking. Also, I tightened the header to block bolts as well. Could this be the cause of all that loss of spool? The driver side connection was leaking quite a bit, passenger not as much but I could easily feel it blowing on my hand. Is this enough leak to cause the late spool?
Thanks
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post #25 of 61 Old 08-18-2010, 09:16 PM
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[QUOTE=bwaite;10010268]
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Originally Posted by 2002mustanggt View Post
When I did stock red wastegate springs and small yellow springs it pulled 8.5 psi. Blew big springs is stiff and will net you 10 psi. Small red I never used it, now somehow I lost my springs. I am using stock wastegate and yellow springs with mbc to net me 20 psi .

blew???? are you saying blue spring gave you 10PSI im confusied.. i thought 5 lbs or so with da blue!
HEHE sorry I meant to day BLUE lol Yup I pulled 11 psi with big blue spring.

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post #26 of 61 Old 08-19-2010, 08:36 AM
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I plugged one of my exhaust pipes and put a leaf blower in the other and found that both connections of the kit pipes to the headers were leaking. Also, I tightened the header to block bolts as well. Could this be the cause of all that loss of spool? The driver side connection was leaking quite a bit, passenger not as much but I could easily feel it blowing on my hand. Is this enough leak to cause the late spool?
Thanks
imo, the kit design contributes to some of the late spool.

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post #27 of 61 Old 08-19-2010, 09:54 AM
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I would take the wastegate off and make sure you have not left out the fire ring / valve seat.

EZ to leave out and makes the power curve look like yours.


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post #28 of 61 Old 08-19-2010, 04:21 PM
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Here is my 6768 Billet @ 10 psi on a 00 4.6 with stock heads and a forged bottom end.



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post #29 of 61 Old 08-19-2010, 05:27 PM Thread Starter
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wg fire ring is definitely in I checked that first. I sealed up all the leaks I can find so now I just need to get the new o2 sensors in before I take it for a drive and see if the spool has improved. And thanks Dan for the graph that's helpful. The 68 is just a slightly larger exhaust wheel correct? also, what a/r was the exhaust on the turbo in that graph?
Thanks
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post #30 of 61 Old 08-19-2010, 05:43 PM
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wg fire ring is definitely in I checked that first. I sealed up all the leaks I can find so now I just need to get the new o2 sensors in before I take it for a drive and see if the spool has improved. And thanks Dan for the graph that's helpful. The 68 is just a slightly larger exhaust wheel correct? also, what a/r was the exhaust on the turbo in that graph?
Thanks
Yes the turbine wheels is 68mm on the exducer (yours is 65mm) and is what some shops call the q-trim. The turbine housing was a .96. I actualy tried both the .68 and the .96. There was only a few hundred rpm dif and the power was a big gain felt like 40whp.

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post #31 of 61 Old 08-19-2010, 06:45 PM
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imo, the kit design contributes to some of the late spool.
Hasn't effected my spool time at all. I am running a PT76GTSH with a .96ar exhaust and I am at full boost around 2500-3000rpm or so. It hits full boost so fast, I cant pull the next gear fast enough. While I am not some On3 nut swinger, I can certainly attest to the fact that its not the kit. P.S., only reason I have an On3 kit is because it was on the car when I bought it...with that dinky 70mm Chinese turbo.....now a PT76GHSH. I have to admit, not a bad kit at all.
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post #32 of 61 Old 08-20-2010, 02:51 PM
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Do you have a dyno sheet ? How many psi ? That's impressive if it's more than 7 psi.
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post #33 of 61 Old 08-21-2010, 06:18 PM
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Hasn't effected my spool time at all. I am running a PT76GTSH with a .96ar exhaust and I am at full boost around 2500-3000rpm or so. It hits full boost so fast, I cant pull the next gear fast enough. While I am not some On3 nut swinger, I can certainly attest to the fact that its not the kit. P.S., only reason I have an On3 kit is because it was on the car when I bought it...with that dinky 70mm Chinese turbo.....now a PT76GHSH. I have to admit, not a bad kit at all.
Are you using a billet wheel 76? I have the Master Power 76 with a .96 a/r on my 04 Cobra motor, and it doesnt hit full boost, 17-18psi, until almost 5,000 rpm. Does yours carry the power all the way to the top of the RPMs?

The on3 kit for my 4 valve out of the box spooled slow on my car because of the vband flanges before the turbo not lining up correctly, causing 3 exhaust leaks before the turbo. I had two pipes modified to fit better. Once that the leaks were taken care of, the turbo spooled alot faster.
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post #34 of 61 Old 08-21-2010, 10:56 PM
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Are you using a billet wheel 76? I have the Master Power 76 with a .96 a/r on my 04 Cobra motor, and it doesnt hit full boost, 17-18psi, until almost 5,000 rpm. Does yours carry the power all the way to the top of the RPMs?

The on3 kit for my 4 valve out of the box spooled slow on my car because of the vband flanges before the turbo not lining up correctly, causing 3 exhaust leaks before the turbo. I had two pipes modified to fit better. Once that the leaks were taken care of, the turbo spooled alot faster.
Nope not a billet wheel but a huge difference between my Precision turbo and your Master Power. Some will agree with me and some won't. Another difference is that mine is on a 347 and I am only running 8psi right now, not 20. So between the wheel technology difference in the turbos, my larger displacement engine, and my max boost being 12psi less than yours.....it all makes sense.
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post #35 of 61 Old 08-21-2010, 11:26 PM
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bigger the motor faster turbo spool.

Voodoo racing innovation built 4v , powerglide, borg warner s475 at 29psi, custome turbo kit , pro efi ecu, Aeromotive fuel pump, aeromotive fuel rails, id 1000 injectors, e85. Best to date 1.36 60'
Best pass to date 8.92 at 156mph. Best 1/8 mile 5.6at 127 mph.
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