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post #1 of 125 Old 08-05-2009, 06:13 PM Thread Starter
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Help with base tune

I need help with my base tune i have tried EVERYTHING I can think of. Either my timing is off or I just can't get this damn thing to start. Can I try someone else's base tune?

DOOe heads
302
f cam
tp38

megasquirt 1 v2.2 MSnS



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post #2 of 125 Old 08-05-2009, 07:30 PM
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what standalone are you using? or are you using the stock ECU?


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post #3 of 125 Old 08-05-2009, 08:14 PM Thread Starter
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edited to add (ms1 v2.2)


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post #4 of 125 Old 08-05-2009, 08:18 PM
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ok i am running MS 1 v3 but i am running the HI-Res Code. If you want i can email you my MSQ for you to take a look at but you are going to have to make changes to the VE for you setup and REQ fuel. But my spark map you can use with no problems. So PM your Email and i will send it out to you

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post #5 of 125 Old 08-05-2009, 08:19 PM
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ps: i am also running Closed loop idle control you will have to turn that have it you are not using your IAC

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post #6 of 125 Old 08-05-2009, 09:58 PM Thread Starter
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BREAK THROUGH


It will start, BUT only if I hold it half pedal. And I have to keep holding it in order for it to run. On a better note when I hold the pedal and turn the key there is no turning just fires right up.

I was told to adjust my injector opening time, thoughts?


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post #7 of 125 Old 08-06-2009, 08:16 AM
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what injectors are you running? can can you post a screen shot of your constants under basic settings this way i can see what you have and give you my settings which should work without a hitch for the injectors. Also did you calibrate the TPS under tools before you started it up? what you can also do is have it generate a VE table for you based on your settings it will probly be alittle rich but it is a good starting point.

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post #8 of 125 Old 08-06-2009, 09:59 AM Thread Starter
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I did the tps calibration once not sure if I need it again, I will try it again. I am running 42lb injectors. I had my 19s modified by FIC.


Just went in to the car and entered 302, 280tq and 220hp for both VE tables and did the required fuel as 302, 8cyl, 42s.

I wonder no having the wastegate on hurts?


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post #9 of 125 Old 08-06-2009, 10:31 AM
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here is a screen shot of my Mega Squirt Constants page in there are my injector settings because i have 42lb injectors as well these settings should work for you with no problem

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post #10 of 125 Old 08-06-2009, 10:33 AM
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here is my spark map as well incase you need it



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post #11 of 125 Old 08-06-2009, 01:29 PM Thread Starter
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Is there anyway to copy paste the values instead of adding them one at a time?


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post #12 of 125 Old 08-06-2009, 01:37 PM Thread Starter
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My constants are damn near the same as yours. I wonder if MS needs the wideband reading? Can MS adjust the idle mixture using a wideband?


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post #13 of 125 Old 08-06-2009, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goatnipples2002 View Post
Is there anyway to caopy paste the values instead of adding them one at a time?
Yes, you need the .vex file that can be exported from the table menu.

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Originally Posted by goatnipples2002 View Post
My constants are damn near the same as yours. I wonder if MS needs the wideband reading? Can MS adjust the idle mixture using a wideband?
It can, and this is commonly referred to as closed loop operation. You don't want to enable it however until you get your base idle down pat...and it's only good for minor adjustments in AFR. Quit messing with everything until your wideband is hooked up. Once it is, then follow the megasquirt directions to a "T" on how to get your base idle setup properly. Chances are, if you cant get it done per the megamanual then you have something else wrong.
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post #14 of 125 Old 08-07-2009, 11:15 PM Thread Starter
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My wideband is in, but the mega manual is too damn old. The EGO stuff doesn't look the same and that is where the road starts to split.

Are there any other MS manuals that are up to date?


It will start, but only if I hold the gas pedal down. I guess I can count this summer gone for racing and plan on next year...maybe. I should have just used a damn FMU instead.....I know MS is way better, but atleast my car would be driving if I used an FMU. I was under the impression that I could get help from the boards and that seems to be an uphill battle sometimes, but you guys are very helpful. Everybody says read the megamanual....I guess that is too much for me as it is dated. I don't mean to sound like a cry baby bitch, but damn....the frustration is killing the enthusiasm.


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post #15 of 125 Old 08-08-2009, 12:09 AM Thread Starter
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double post


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post #16 of 125 Old 08-08-2009, 08:04 AM
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do you have to hold the pedal down only when the car is COLD? Also you should adjust your throttle stop so that it will stay running it says that in the manual and tune your VE to keep it running.Then start to lower the throttle stop down(when its warmed up) to where you want it to idle warm then re- adjust your VE to the AFR you what it to idle at when warm and the lowest Vacuum possible(mine is around 45-49kpa at idle) also every time you make a change to the idle screw make sure you re calibrate your tps. hope this helps a bit.

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post #17 of 125 Old 08-08-2009, 09:17 AM
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Here is the latest version of the megamanual you should be using....

http://www.megamanual.com/mtabcon.htm

Here is the section on getting it started and idling...
http://www.megamanual.com/v22manual/mtune.htm#howto

Here is an excerpt from that section describing the problem your having...
"
If the engine stalls when you let off the throttle, you may have to raise the throttle speed. Do this with the throttle stop adjustment. It may require bending a metal arm, or drilling and removing a cap to get at a stop screw (drill a small hole and thread a sheet metal screw in, this will press the cap out as you turn it in)."

What are your AFR's while trying to idle?

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post #18 of 125 Old 08-08-2009, 11:26 AM Thread Starter
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I am not sure MS is reading my AFR. I connected the signal wire to the O2 input on pin 44 of the original harness.

My car hasn't ran long enough to get warm. So any time I try to start it it is cold. I will adjust the throttle stop and see what that does.

That is the manual that I use. The EGO screen they show looks nothing like what I have. Do I have an older version cause I could have sworn I got the latest version of MSnS....yes I know I need to get the hi_res.

Thank you for your patience and help. I will try that and get back.


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post #19 of 125 Old 08-08-2009, 12:21 PM
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did you have Mega tune generate a ve table for you?

how do you have your wideband hooked up the MS? remember it should share the same power and ground as the MS as well.
But i would adjust the throttle stop and check that and make sure after you do you re-calibrate the TPS in Mega Tune

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post #20 of 125 Old 08-08-2009, 01:19 PM Thread Starter
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I used the spark table from here http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/in...791.msg1064632 the 4th map is designed to pull timing for boost.

I had MS make a fuel VE table.

The wideband's signal wire is connected to pin 44 on the stock harness (I am using an MS adapter board) by using the black wire on the stock o2 sensor harness. The AEM manual lists EGO sensor-right, o2#1 as pin 44 on the 94-95 mustang. I toned out pin 44 and it was the black wire on the stock o2 harness. I have the pwr and neg connected to temp connections, I just wanted to see if it worked. I will run them both to the same pwr/neg as the ecu.

The Cranking Pulse Widths, Afterstart Enrichment and Warm-up Enrichment are a guessing game. I mean there don't seem to be any definite values to get the car started. This is a major part of my confusion.


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post #21 of 125 Old 08-08-2009, 01:34 PM
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pm me your email and i will send you my MSQ to look at later on when i get home from work.
the wide band should have a WIDEBAND output that is what you want for MS. Dont use the one for narrowband simulation. Also in Megatune you have to tell it what wideband you have as well in the configurator .
If you want to see if your Wideband works or is hooked up properly just turn the key on but dont crank and it should warm up and then count its way up to 21.1 and ms should be doing the same as well

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post #22 of 125 Old 08-08-2009, 04:31 PM
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Don't worry about the afterstart and warmup enrichments yet...just get the damn thing started and running. First things first though, get the wideband hooked up properly. I'm not familiar with the AEM setups, so your best bet is going to post something on the megaforums on the subject.

Also, if you are using the standard R4 and R7 'Bias Resistors' you MUST run easytherm to get the proper sensor calibration. Otherwise, the car will run like poo...and you'll end up tuning around it to get things running and end up with a junk tune. More on easytherm here... http://www.megamanual.com/v22manual/mwire.htm#et and the settings you need are seen here towards the bottom of the page (for both IAT and CLT in easytherm) http://www.diyautotune.com/tech_arti...IV_adapter.htm

Also, Per the megamanual...

"First, learn to use MegaTune,
Next, set the constants,
Get the engine started and idling,
Then set the PWM criteria,
Then set the cold start and warm-up enrichments,
Then set the VE table,
Set the acceleration enrichments,
Check that certain resistors are not getting too hot while driving"

"Cranking Pulse Widths: Remember that the cranking pulse widths need to be with ~0.5 milliseconds of the optimal value at both -40ºF and 170º F. Generally the -40ºF cranking pulse widths should be about 3 to 5 times the 170ºF number. If you over-estimate the correct values, you WILL flood the engine. Note that even in a 'piggy-back' application, do not set MegaSquirt's cranking pulse widths to zero. This will cause unpredictable pulse widths up to 13 milliseconds. Instead, set them to 0.1 milliseconds in that application. This allows very little fuel to flow.

Afterstart Enrichment: If the engine tries to start, but dies right away, you need to adjust the after start enrichment. Generally this should be between 25-45% for 100 to 250 cycles,
Warm-up Enrichment: If the engine starts but dies after a several seconds or minutes, then you need to adjust your warm-up enrichment. Use up to 15% greater than the defaults if that seems to help.

VE Table: Adjust the values at the idle kPa and rpm to get it to idle. You want to change the VE table entries while watching the engine MAP (in kPa) to try and lower the MAP as much as possible. Do this after the engine has warmed up. As you do this, the engine rpm will rise, and you may have to adjust the throttle stop on the throttle body to lower the rpm back to the desired idle speed. Once the idle VE are tuned, you will have to retune the afterstart and warmup enrichments. "

As for the EGO screen not looking identical, it doesn't matter as it's there for reference only. The numbers and terminology are all the same
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post #23 of 125 Old 08-08-2009, 04:55 PM
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well said

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post #24 of 125 Old 08-09-2009, 02:05 AM Thread Starter
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How did you guys learn so much about MS. Don't tell me some BS that you just read the manual. Cause that thing is Chinese to me. A couple guys locally have done Ms on an MX3 and an RX7 I will call them and have them set it up. I get too frustrated and confused. Thanks for the help guys.


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post #25 of 125 Old 08-09-2009, 07:03 AM
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i read the manual . one of my friends put one in his mx6 and on his miata so i learned a couple of things from him and he helped me get going . but the people who helped me out the most was Millhouse and the guys from DIYautotune so listen to them. and like i said i will email you my msq if you think it will help you out in anyway. so if you need help ask away

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post #26 of 125 Old 08-09-2009, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goatnipples2002 View Post
How did you guys learn so much about MS. Don't tell me some BS that you just read the manual. Cause that thing is Chinese to me. A couple guys locally have done Ms on an MX3 and an RX7 I will call them and have them set it up. I get too frustrated and confused. Thanks for the help guys.
Lol, a vast majority was reading the megamanual. At this point, you only need to focus on the tuning portion, but I had read that damn thing 4 or 5 times before I started tuning. I also printed it out and had it next to me open to the section I was focusing on while I was in the car. When I was trying to get things started and idling...I had the manual opened to that section and was following it step by step. On those occasions I had an issue I relied on www.msefi.com forums and Matt Cramer here (diyautotune). I must admit, I did learn quite a bit by reading the posts of those who had done it before me. I originally had tried to use someone else's tune as a base...and quickly found it to be a complete waste of time. Some things transfer well (spark table, some constants and settings), but a vast majority can really throw you in the wrong direction.

Hey, are you running easytherm to compensate for the stock 5.0 sensors? If not, you'll need to get that thing loaded in before it will run properly...as your IAT's are going to be WAAAY off and throw your tune in the dirt. You can easly tell this by looking at your IAT's and CLT's with the engine off. They should be at or near the ambient air temps outside after sitting overnight...and they both should be within a few degrees of each other. Check this ASAP and get back to me.
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post #27 of 125 Old 08-09-2009, 09:02 AM Thread Starter
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no i am not running easytherm I will look into that when I get off work. I am not going to give up.


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post #28 of 125 Old 08-10-2009, 12:53 AM Thread Starter
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It runs. Easytherm 5.0 is the shiz


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post #29 of 125 Old 08-22-2009, 02:49 AM Thread Starter
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#### megasquirt. I fell off the path. I just tried doing too much at once. I took tomorrow (sat) off so I could do tuning all day. We'll see what happens. I know I gotta set my timing and get this damn idle good.


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post #30 of 125 Old 08-22-2009, 03:03 AM
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so you have got it started at all
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post #31 of 125 Old 08-22-2009, 06:29 AM Thread Starter
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I starts and idles. It is choppy the idle is around 800ish with an F cam. I will probably raise it tomorrow try for 950ish.


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post #32 of 125 Old 08-22-2009, 08:29 AM
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I starts and idles. It is choppy the idle is around 800ish with an F cam. I will probably raise it tomorrow try for 950ish.
Yeah, megasquirt and a low idle don't jive with the f-cam. For a smooth idle, you'll likely end up being in the 13:1 AFR range rather than 14.7 and should have about 12-14in vacuum at idle. You'll want to have an RPM bin at around 700 in the timing table and need to raise those cells in the idle area up to around 40-50. What this will do is keep the RPM from dropping too low and stalling. Only 4 bins are needed for this...the ones that correlate directly to your idle area in your "actual" idle cells (900-950 rpm).
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post #33 of 125 Old 08-24-2009, 10:03 PM Thread Starter
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This is becoming one of the most frustrating mods ever. It will idle but is very choppy.

1st I tried setting my pwm, but I can change it to 1% and I get no changes. I even took it down to 30% and 15ms open no changes except it died. I get no changes it either dies or it idles rough. I changed my upper req fuel to 15-18 and it idles better not choppy and the rpms come up.

2nd I tried the datalog thing and I get NO changes from the VE analyzer. It still drives like ####. I couldn't look at the WB and drive down the street.

3rd I tried autotune but it just said the points are outside of the something.

4th I pulled the plugs and they are covered in black soot. I know that is rich, but how do I lean it out in req fuel? Bigger injectors, leaner ratio?

I see so many videos of people just installing and going, If this MS thing is so easy for people what the hell am I doing wrong?

I followed the manual for the pwm settings, but it either idles or it dies. No smoothing out.


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post #34 of 125 Old 08-25-2009, 07:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goatnipples2002 View Post
This is becoming one of the most frustrating mods ever. It will idle but is very choppy.

1st I tried setting my pwm, but I can change it to 1% and I get no changes. I ever took it down to 30% and 15ms open no changes except it died. I get no changes it either dies or it idles rough. I changed my upper req fuel to 15-18 and it idles better not choppy and the rpms come up.

2nd I tried the datalog thing and I get NO changes from the VE analyzer. It still drives like ####. I couldn't look at the WB and drive down the street.

3rd I tried autotune but it just said the points are outside of the something.

4th I pulled the plugs and they are covered in black soot. I know that is rich, but how do I lean it out in req fuel? Bigger injectors, leaner ratio?

I see so many videos of people just installing and going, If this MS thing is so easy for people what the hell am I doing wrong?

I followed the manual for the pwm settings, but it either idles or it dies. No smoothing out.
First things first….

Unless you are running low z injectors, QUIT MESSING WITH THE PWM!!!!

Per the megamanual:
• “If you are running high-impedance injectors (greater than 10 Ohms), then set the:
o PWM Time Threshold to 25.4 msec, and the
o PWM Current Limit (%) to 100%.
In essence you are disabling the PWM mode. This allows full voltage to the injectors throughout the pulse widths.”

That’s it, you won’t EVER have to monkey with those settings unless you switch over to low z injectors.

Next up, quit driving it until your idle nice and smooth with a fully warmed up engine.

Before you try to start the engine, have you calibrated the TPS in megasquirt?

Did you use easytherm correctly? This is VERY important! If you didn’t copy the proper files over to the directory…or didn’t write the files and burn a new .s19 into the megasquirt (write to controller) then you will not be able to get a stable idle…let alone drive.

After you have confirmed all of this, instead of re-scaling your required fuel….adjust your VE values in the graphical VE table one display and adjust the cells for your idle there. Pull them down to accommodate a leaner mixture until you get a more stable idle. If you can’t lower them far enough or the numbers get too low, then it’s time to reset the req_fuel in order to scale the table into a more useful range. Below is a small explanation I wrote to a fellow member on how to adjust your req_fuel….

“Go to the "Basic Settings" menu followed by "Fuel VE table 1". Next, go into the "Tools" menu and then "VE Specific" followed by "Reset ReqFuel". Keep the check mark checked. You should notice your current lower req_fuel value in the "Current" location. What you'll want to do is enter a lower value for the "New ReqFuel Value". What will then happen is your whole table will get scaled up...adding fuel across the board to compensate for lowering the req_fuel value. Your tune will remain unchanged, but it will now allow finer adjustments to your table without making as large of a change. You can keep on tweaking the value until your high numbers reach the ~200-220 range (you can't go over 255, so you want to leave some breathing room). I'd leave a little room if you plan on upping the boost in the near future. Regardless, you can always reset everything up/down as necessary. After all is said and done, your req fuel will be reset to the new value you enter. For the same give combo, the smaller the req_fuel, the larger the VE tables values need to be...and vice versa. Also, with a 4 squirt/alternating setting (which you should have) your lower number will always be half of your upper."
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post #35 of 125 Old 08-25-2009, 10:05 AM Thread Starter
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I will try that this afternoon. I got to actually hear the turbo and damn that thing is loud........I love it. The tp38 sound okay on the powerstrokes, but it sound sweet on the stang.


You think open downpipe effects any part of the tune?


I kinda understand how the VE tables are setup, but I mess with it and see what I can do.


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Last edited by goatnipples2002; 08-25-2009 at 10:10 AM.
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