blew head gaskets already...have a few ? - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
 
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post #1 of 34 Old 06-21-2009, 09:33 PM Thread Starter
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blew head gaskets already...have a few ?

Hey all, i just recently got my quicktime turbo done and took it for a spin. It runs on e-85 and is a blowthru csu carb setup. I was told by kevin at csu since im running e-85, an intercooler IS NOT necessary at all, especially for just 8 IBS of boost. well I wasnt paying attention to my boost gauge but i took it for a test drive after removing the intercooler and i popped both head gaskets. I have the fel pro 1011-1 with the steel rings and 7 out of 8 rings were blew out or bent..ran them on 150 shot of nitrous for two years and no prob. This is just a stock 302 with stock ported heads also. I am almost positive i didnt not hear the motor detonate or ping of any sort when the gaskets blew. I was wondering if maybe I started pushing more boost than 8 IBS when i removed the intercooler and it just over boosted the motor..I also had the timing locked out at 30 degress with a btm retard set a 1 degree. Do you guys think i should buy a smaller wastegate spring for extra insurance? i really dont want to change head gaskets again!
thanks for any replies!
Ty

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post #2 of 34 Old 06-21-2009, 10:31 PM
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What was your air fuel ratio like? What are you using for head bolts/studs? Have you verified that your btm is working? Alot of people are having problems with them. I wouldn't trust my motor to a rubber diaphram. I take it you don't have any means to data log anything. Just because you didn't hear it detonate doesn't mean it didn't. I popped my first set last year and never heard anything. You are running a boost referenced regulator, right?

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post #3 of 34 Old 06-21-2009, 10:31 PM
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If you removed the IC and changed nothing, which is how I read your posting then yes your boost will go up some due to the removal of that restriction. Plus your air inlet temps will go up, not sure if E85 fuel helps compensate for that or not.

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post #4 of 34 Old 06-21-2009, 10:47 PM Thread Starter
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my a/f ratio looked good when i hit the gas...actually maybe even a little on the rich side. yes i am running a boost reference regulator also. I am also running arp head bolts...I already put a new set of the same head gaskets on with a new set of arp head bolts. How do it tell for sure if my btm is working? Its brand new also.?
according to kevin from csu, he recommended i take off the intercooler when running the e 85 like that. He said it was completely unnecessary especially at only 8 Ibs of boost. He said there were guys making 1500hp without intercoolers running e 85.
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post #5 of 34 Old 06-21-2009, 11:40 PM
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Even if it is unnecessary how would it hurt to be staying and cooling down the air charge? I am not sure how to verify on the BTM

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post #6 of 34 Old 06-21-2009, 11:44 PM
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What exactly was your A/F under boost when you had the problem?

Personally I would run the intercooler no matter what fuel I ran. I run my setup with 5psi WG springs 75% of the time while running E85.

To check the BTM you put pressure in it and watch to see if the timing changes how much it is suposed to.

Also E85 requires a different timing curve than gasoline, at least on my setup it did. At 8 psi I run 21-22* while also running meth injection. Any more timing than that and it started to lose power. No sign of detonation.
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post #7 of 34 Old 06-22-2009, 12:13 AM
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I don't care for 1011s anyways . . . if you are too cheap to run cometics, at least run the 9333s.
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post #8 of 34 Old 06-22-2009, 10:41 AM
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if your timing is locked at 30 degrees on the distributor then your BTM is rendered useless since you no longer use the computer for compensating timing. So setting the BTM makes no difference. Running 30 deg locked with 8 psi is definetely too high and would blow any gasket. This is how I have always approached things, maybe I am wrong

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post #9 of 34 Old 06-22-2009, 11:43 AM
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A lot of people are running like 15-20* locked, 30 seems like a bunch.
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post #10 of 34 Old 06-22-2009, 12:20 PM
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Inlet temps are not as bad as you would think. The fuel getting into the charge early changes things quite a bit. The BTM will work just fine as it's a stand alone unit. You can get a mity vac hand pump and check it for correct operation. Another thing you will see is the engine will tolerate more timing than it will with port injection. I am no expert and would take Kevin's advice on this. I only have one boosted/carb under my belt.

I am not a fan of the 1011-1 and feel the 9333 is a better gasket for your engine program. I don't use Cometic gaskets on stock blocks as I don't think there is enough fastner/material to make them seal well.

How is your boost controller set up? Is it closed loop?

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post #11 of 34 Old 06-22-2009, 03:59 PM Thread Starter
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i dont have a boost controller on the car...and whats wrong with the 1011-1s? I am not ganna be cheap about it, but they are already on the car so im not changing them now. Also, kevin actually recomended i start out at 38* for the timing! i thought that sounded really high so i thought 30 might be a good starting point with the btm set on 1. Also, the a/f ratio gauge was reading between 10 and 11 when i punched it.
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post #12 of 34 Old 06-22-2009, 04:02 PM Thread Starter
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also...isnt the 9333 a stock head gasket recommended for NON racing apps?
Ty
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post #13 of 34 Old 06-22-2009, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notch88 View Post
Also, the a/f ratio gauge was reading between 10 and 11 when i punched it.
That my friend is a BIG reason why you blew both sets of head gaskets. The ratio is way to lean for an E85 fueled engine. PERIOD.

Stoich ratio for E85 is 9.76 - Gasoline is 14.7

If you are tuning using the same ratio's that gasoline engines use then you will have big problems.

I would start w/ a baseline of around 8.0-8.2:1 WOT fuel mixture and 20* locked out timing. You can than start advancing timing and messing w/ fuel if need be.

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post #14 of 34 Old 06-22-2009, 05:43 PM
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Dude lock your timing @ 22degrees and throw away the BTM

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post #15 of 34 Old 06-22-2009, 07:12 PM Thread Starter
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i believe this has been discussed on here or turbomustangs.com, but i believe you are wrong about that. The a/f ratio gauge is measuring air...so whether its e 85 or pump gas, your readings will be tuned the same. Kevin at csu even verified this for me. So im pretty sure im ok there.
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post #16 of 34 Old 06-22-2009, 07:27 PM
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What WB are you using. Does it allow you to change the AFR display for the actual fuel your using?

If your WB is showing ratios relative to e85 and your seeing 10-11 on the gauge, that is way too lean. If the WB gauge is still showing gasoline AFR values then your 10-11 means its good ( even though the actual ratio is in the 7-8 range)

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post #17 of 34 Old 06-22-2009, 07:45 PM
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I dont know which is correct but my wideband came with options to change settings based on the fuel i was using

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post #18 of 34 Old 06-22-2009, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxfan88 View Post
What WB are you using. Does it allow you to change the AFR display for the actual fuel your using?

If your WB is showing ratios relative to e85 and your seeing 10-11 on the gauge, that is way too lean. If the WB gauge is still showing gasoline AFR values then your 10-11 means its good ( even though the actual ratio is in the 7-8 range)
This is what I was getting at. Sorry for any confusion I am just trying to help out.

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post #19 of 34 Old 06-22-2009, 10:12 PM Thread Starter
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i have an aem wideband...i dont believe i can change it for the type of fuel im running. Whether its gas or e 85, it should measure the amount of unused oxygen, not fuel. Which would make the a/f ratios on e 85 read the same as gasoline. anyways, i think im gana bite the bullet and take off these heads again since i just have the heads and intake on anyhow, and buy arp head studs with the felpro mls gaskets because i really dont want to do this anytime soon again!
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post #20 of 34 Old 06-22-2009, 10:24 PM
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You should figure out what is the cause of them blowing over just putting a better seal on it. Make the seal too good and whatever was the cause of them blowing now will cause bigger and better damage.

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post #21 of 34 Old 06-22-2009, 10:27 PM Thread Starter
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shouldnt i be able to hear the motor well enough if somthing isnt right? I just dont wanna blow another head gasket at the first little ping it makes...surly it wont gernade the motor that easy, its not like im running 20 IBs of boost?
Ty
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post #22 of 34 Old 06-22-2009, 10:30 PM
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The slightest little ping should not have popped both headgaskets and I highly doubt did. The biggest mistake I see people do is instead of figuring out a tuning issue they throw a better seal on the gaskets and just end up causing bigger and better damage if not immediately then over time. The weak point is telling you something is wrong and it is not saying just strengthen the weak point. Now if you were running 20lbs of boost then I would say your gasket selection was improper for the combo.

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post #23 of 34 Old 06-22-2009, 10:40 PM Thread Starter
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ok so there obviously had to be somthing pretty big going on with the motor that it didnt like....what are some things to make sure of when i drive it next? will the 1011-1 gaskets be ok then? One other thing i noticed when i took off the heads on the driver side the bolts didnt seem to be as tight as they should..and i never did retorque them...the motor felt really good when i drove it also, it was pulling hard and everything, sounded great.
Ty
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post #24 of 34 Old 06-22-2009, 10:43 PM
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I think they will be okay so long as you get the tune settled out. What are you really out for trying since they are already installed? I just noticed you are using E7s, did you get them checked for any warpage when you had them off for the gasket swap?

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post #25 of 34 Old 06-22-2009, 10:49 PM Thread Starter
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id just be out a lot of time if i had to do it again....and no i didnt have them checked for warpage, i had sprayed nitrous on them for 2 years and all was good i just checked for any odd grooves and such and put them back on.
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post #26 of 34 Old 06-22-2009, 10:58 PM
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I think going to head studs and MLS gaskets with E7 heads would be a huge waste of money. I asked on the warpage because the deck is so thin on those, I have had warped heads before and could not tell at all by looking at them.

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post #27 of 34 Old 06-23-2009, 09:18 AM
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i am running 1011-1's for almost 2 years on 12lbs ? i think it was in the tune up also, maybe check the heads with a straight edge while they are off or send them to a machine shop


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post #28 of 34 Old 06-23-2009, 04:52 PM Thread Starter
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thanks guys, i guess ill just put it back together and give it another shot with what i have. hopefully it holds.
Ty
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post #29 of 34 Old 06-23-2009, 06:11 PM
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Fel pro 9333's here with studs, no problems yet. Also, I learned real fast widebands can be innaccurate. I have an Innovate LC-1 that was showing me running rich. Once my tuner put the sniffer on the tailpipe it was actually lean. Luckily no damage was done. Damn thing still dont work right.

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post #30 of 34 Old 06-24-2009, 09:37 AM
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there is a conversion chart in the directions.

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post #31 of 34 Old 06-24-2009, 09:45 AM
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the gauge will always read for gasoline stoich 14.7. you will just have to use that conversion chart.
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post #32 of 34 Old 06-24-2009, 09:51 AM
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I like using the graphite head gaskets because they will move around a bit. Your stock block and thin deck on the head isn't a great platform to clamp MLS or wire rings. You should always double check your wideband, We have a lab grade sensor here and I always check the sensors I tune with to make sure the numbers are close between the two.

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post #33 of 34 Old 06-24-2009, 09:52 AM
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Fuel AFRst FARst Equivalence
Ratio Lambda
Gasoline stoichiometric 14.7 0.068 1 1
Gasoline max power rich 12.5 0.08 1.176 0.8503
Gasoline max power lean 13.23 0.0755 1.111 0.900
E10 stoichiometric 14.0 - 14.1 ? ?
E85 stoichiometric 9.765 0.10235 1 1
E85 max power rich 6.975 0.1434 1.40 0.7143
E85 max power lean 8.4687 0.118 1.153 0.8673
E100 stoichiometric 9.0078 0.111 1 1
E100 max power rich 6.429 0.155 1.4 0.714
E100 max power lean 7.8 0.128 1.15 0.870
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post #34 of 34 Old 06-24-2009, 12:21 PM
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I could never understand this. Take the car and have it tuned. I messed around for years and years with nitrous and various superchargers and I always had the issue of parts breakage. Once I started tuning on a dyno, the majority of that went away. ANY forced induction setup should be tuned by a competant tuner. Please take my advice. The three or four hundred bucks you will spend will be far less than the path that you are going down now. You're lucky you don't have aluminum heads or you might be having them welded.

On another note, I have seen stock heads off quite a bit with a straight edge. Did you check them when they were off? If they aren't straight, it doesn't matter what gasket, what fastener, what a/f ratio...they will still let loose. It's the same if your tune is off. It won't matter what gasket, what fastener, etc.

Make sure you check the block and heads for straightness and then take the car and put it on a dyno with a tuner experienced with E85.
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