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post #1 of 33 Old 06-04-2009, 10:01 PM Thread Starter
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Holset turbo question?

i am building a 359w and my buddy has a holset turbo off of a 5.9 cummins diesel. i'm planning on putting it on my cobra. are these turbos reliable? i only want 6-8 psi will i be able to spool it? any tips?

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post #2 of 33 Old 06-05-2009, 07:38 PM
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they are but anything off a 5.9 will be too small unless he upgraded.

That turbo should be a H1C depending on the year and is barely enough for a 302 let alone a 359.

You would be better off with two of those.

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post #3 of 33 Old 06-05-2009, 09:07 PM Thread Starter
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DAMN!! the 359W is a 5.9? what is the difference from a 5.9 gas and a 5.9 diesel? i am not arguing or acting like i know everything i'm just new to turbos and trying to piece something together on the cheap/ would i be able to get away with this turbo for low boost (6-8lbs) until i can go bigger or would i be completely wasting my time?
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post #4 of 33 Old 06-06-2009, 02:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mustangman57 View Post
DAMN!! the 359W is a 5.9? what is the difference from a 5.9 gas and a 5.9 diesel? i am not arguing or acting like i know everything i'm just new to turbos and trying to piece something together on the cheap/ would i be able to get away with this turbo for low boost (6-8lbs) until i can go bigger or would i be completely wasting my time?

5.9 liter gas motor spins to 5,500-6,000

5.9 liter diesel motor spins to 3,000

The diesel turbo is designed to work at low rpm.

1987 Saleen clone: 358cid, FoxLake Vic Jr's, Victor 5.0, YSi, etc, etc, etc
809rwhp on pump gas + meth injection
"Just turn the boost up.....it's only air."
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post #5 of 33 Old 06-06-2009, 07:46 AM
 
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i have one on my 5.0 and it works great-the holset will support 25lbs- i run 8.4 full spool by 3000rpm-i also did it on the cheap so far so good
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post #6 of 33 Old 06-06-2009, 06:21 PM Thread Starter
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so is streetfalcon correct in saying that this turbo is too small for my engine? or should i get 2 of these?
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post #7 of 33 Old 06-07-2009, 04:29 PM
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so is streetfalcon correct in saying that this turbo is too small for my engine? or should i get 2 of these?
it depends on what model you have and what size exhaust housing it has.

The model is on the front of the compressor housing (more than likely a H1C) and the a/r for the exhaust will be listed on the exhaust housing (is written as a double-digit number cm^2).

The compressor maps are on theturboforums or floating around the internet and you will find you need a much "larger" turbo than you think you need.

My holset is an H1E off a 10L cummins backhoe and its on my 302.
Its bigger than a H1C and has almost the same map as a 62-1.
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post #8 of 33 Old 06-08-2009, 04:36 PM
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listen its all about airflow.

the compressor map and turbine gas flow characteristics determine everything.

a holset designed for a 5.9 diesel will olny flow enough for a very low flowing 4 liter engine, and still only make 400hp.

96 mustang GT-93 teksid 4v forged: ported heads, kellogg crank, billet i-beams, CP forged pistons, 9.4:1, BIG turbo, 4x28x12 fmic, big boost.

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post #9 of 33 Old 06-08-2009, 04:42 PM
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just because someone says"it works great on my 5.0" doesnt mean iot actually makes horsepower with that engine. as a compressot reaches less than 60percent efficiency it makes only heated air. flows nothing.

horsepower is made by airflow not pressure.

manifold pressure has nothing to do with power. you can calculate it using pressure ratio and airflow.

as is airflow.

hp is figured if known VE, af-ratio, airflow, and a few other constants.


dont have time for a whole lesson, but airflow at certain ve, with certain air temperature, and a/f ratio = hp.

so:: using an h1c designed for a 5.9l diesel isnt going to work for a 6.0l gas engine. more than twice the airflow and less gas flow per hp.

96 mustang GT-93 teksid 4v forged: ported heads, kellogg crank, billet i-beams, CP forged pistons, 9.4:1, BIG turbo, 4x28x12 fmic, big boost.

2011 GT 300A, 3.73, M6, spoiler delete, brembos
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post #10 of 33 Old 06-08-2009, 04:45 PM
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now with that said: IF an h1-e has a usable matching compressor map AND the turbine gas flow matches for rpm response that turbo will work. putting a .85 a/r turbine on a big turbo will work great IF the launch rpm yields enough gas flow in the turbine.


96 mustang GT-93 teksid 4v forged: ported heads, kellogg crank, billet i-beams, CP forged pistons, 9.4:1, BIG turbo, 4x28x12 fmic, big boost.

2011 GT 300A, 3.73, M6, spoiler delete, brembos
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post #11 of 33 Old 06-08-2009, 04:52 PM
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ie an 80mm turbo with 52 trim will have great pressure ratio at low airflow for good torque in diesel application and sounds good for a gas engine, but is paractically useless above 4.0 liters.

96 mustang GT-93 teksid 4v forged: ported heads, kellogg crank, billet i-beams, CP forged pistons, 9.4:1, BIG turbo, 4x28x12 fmic, big boost.

2011 GT 300A, 3.73, M6, spoiler delete, brembos
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post #12 of 33 Old 06-08-2009, 04:55 PM
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now, you find a compressor map you like on a turbo, but its exahist a/r is say 1.00. say its an 80mm compressor and a 72mm turbine. it will do well at high gas flow. but be less than responsive. if its a common frame turbo, you can retro fit the turbine to say 77mm .84 A/R and really have a low end puller with pretty low EGT's.

96 mustang GT-93 teksid 4v forged: ported heads, kellogg crank, billet i-beams, CP forged pistons, 9.4:1, BIG turbo, 4x28x12 fmic, big boost.

2011 GT 300A, 3.73, M6, spoiler delete, brembos
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post #13 of 33 Old 06-08-2009, 04:56 PM
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just some thoughts

96 mustang GT-93 teksid 4v forged: ported heads, kellogg crank, billet i-beams, CP forged pistons, 9.4:1, BIG turbo, 4x28x12 fmic, big boost.

2011 GT 300A, 3.73, M6, spoiler delete, brembos
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post #14 of 33 Old 06-08-2009, 08:18 PM Thread Starter
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ok... im not gonna pretend that i understood that because you went WAY above my head. well what about turbo off of a peterbuilt semi? or a kenworth? am i going off the edge in the opposite end of the spectrum? way too damn big?
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post #15 of 33 Old 06-08-2009, 09:10 PM
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the turbine gas flow matters too.

garrett give gas flow for pressure ratio for each of their turbo's.

if you want a cheap turbo.....
that will work. you HAVE to start with VE and airflow. you must know it for your engine.

ie. lets say my 4v flowing 300ish cfm at 6500 rpms/ 1.5 pressure ratio/.92 average VE and 4.6 liter uses ~57 lb/min

the requirements for me are very different for an E7 headed 5.0L turning 5500.

so you need to know more info about your combo before selecting.

you could just pick one and feel mid range and not know you are giving away all of the top end a matching turbo will afford.

96 mustang GT-93 teksid 4v forged: ported heads, kellogg crank, billet i-beams, CP forged pistons, 9.4:1, BIG turbo, 4x28x12 fmic, big boost.

2011 GT 300A, 3.73, M6, spoiler delete, brembos
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post #16 of 33 Old 06-08-2009, 09:13 PM
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basically what im saying is, get a large frame garrett, and mix match compressor and turbine for your combo. GT 37,40's are cheap. and it gives you a starting point.
stick to common hotside flanges ie.t-4,t-6,split.

96 mustang GT-93 teksid 4v forged: ported heads, kellogg crank, billet i-beams, CP forged pistons, 9.4:1, BIG turbo, 4x28x12 fmic, big boost.

2011 GT 300A, 3.73, M6, spoiler delete, brembos
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post #17 of 33 Old 06-08-2009, 09:14 PM
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nobody can just say"use this one. or that one" your needs are specific.when you say peterbilt, it doesnt mean it will work.

trim matters. compressor wheel trim for a given exducer diameter is the whole thing. a large wheel with a low trim doesnt flow a lot of air at lower pressure ratios.

96 mustang GT-93 teksid 4v forged: ported heads, kellogg crank, billet i-beams, CP forged pistons, 9.4:1, BIG turbo, 4x28x12 fmic, big boost.

2011 GT 300A, 3.73, M6, spoiler delete, brembos

Last edited by assasinator; 06-08-2009 at 09:16 PM.
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post #18 of 33 Old 06-08-2009, 09:30 PM
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i simplified the compressor wheel a little. impellor design matters too.

96 mustang GT-93 teksid 4v forged: ported heads, kellogg crank, billet i-beams, CP forged pistons, 9.4:1, BIG turbo, 4x28x12 fmic, big boost.

2011 GT 300A, 3.73, M6, spoiler delete, brembos
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post #19 of 33 Old 06-08-2009, 10:29 PM Thread Starter
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here is my combo

ok i've got a 359w (.40 over 351) with a set of canfield 192cc heads ported to the max (stage 3 but who really sets the stages "officially" lol every company has stg 1-2-3...blah blah blah) any way the heads have 2.08 intake valves with 1.60 exhaust, i'm pretty sure they are 64cc combustion chambers, i'm using crane 1.6 roller rockers, howard solid roller lifters with link bars, trickflow stg 2 cam, keith black forged pistons (don't no the part number off hand, and sadly i'm not positive on the compression height if i had top guess i'd put it at 9 or 10:1), stock crank and football rods with arp rod bolts, moroso 7 qt oil pan, melling high volume oil pump, and the rotating assembly has been balanced
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post #20 of 33 Old 06-08-2009, 10:48 PM Thread Starter
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i know the compression is a little high for boost but that is why i;m keeping the psi low 6-8 lbs
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post #21 of 33 Old 06-08-2009, 10:54 PM
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so you have a $3,000-$4,000 motor and you are trying to get a $100 junkyard turbo to work?

The diesel turbos have giant exhaust sides compared to a proper turbonetics/garrett.

You still have no idea what turbo you have . . .
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post #22 of 33 Old 06-09-2009, 08:14 AM
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holset's off of the cummins motors are rather popular with the ford 2.3 crowd .... do give you an idea of what people are using them on...

1990 Notchback stock bottom end , TW's , F cam , Systemax and 66mm in the works.
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post #23 of 33 Old 06-09-2009, 11:00 PM Thread Starter
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i have given up on the 5.9 cummins turbo. i am trying to get a decent turbo from a heavy equipment junkyard that will work. if i cant get a decent junkyard turbo i'll give up on the idea until i can afford a good one. i am just trying to do the most that i can for the least money.... but like i said if i cant benefit from it ill just say screw it and go all motor for now
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post #24 of 33 Old 06-10-2009, 10:44 PM
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did you ever figure out what model you have?
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post #25 of 33 Old 06-10-2009, 11:08 PM
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10:1 isnt high for today's engine managment.
ok. now i read the heads thing.

heads and cubes like that really need a 4294 or even larger. you might flow 87lb/min with that setup at 1.5 ratio. thats twin turbo territory.especially at low pressure ratios. (5-8psi)

96 mustang GT-93 teksid 4v forged: ported heads, kellogg crank, billet i-beams, CP forged pistons, 9.4:1, BIG turbo, 4x28x12 fmic, big boost.

2011 GT 300A, 3.73, M6, spoiler delete, brembos
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post #26 of 33 Old 06-11-2009, 10:02 AM Thread Starter
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the guy said it is a hx35 i think? i'm thinking ill just go n/a until i can afford to do it right
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post #27 of 33 Old 06-11-2009, 11:18 PM
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the hx35 is even slightly smaller than the H1C (most models) but a newer version. I believe 94/95 they went from H (number) (letter) to H (letter) (double-digit number).

Twin hx35s might get it but without a compressor map, we don't know.

Is it an internal wastegate?

hmmm



pink is the stock hx35
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post #28 of 33 Old 06-12-2009, 09:52 PM Thread Starter
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yeah internal gated.
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post #29 of 33 Old 06-13-2009, 03:54 PM
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If you cant afford a descent turbo then you should wait until you can afford one.

The turbo IS the most important piece of a turbo kit... its the one part that you want to do right.

Nothing but slow chebby's right now.....
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post #30 of 33 Old 06-13-2009, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by OrangeSVT03 View Post
If you cant afford a descent turbo then you should wait until you can afford one.

The turbo IS the most important piece of a turbo kit... its the one part that you want to do right.
yes and no.

I am making 505rwhp and 559rwtq with a Holset H1C and a homemade kit with ebay parts (namely ebay "tial" wastegate) and other junk most people wouldn't run . . . so it works you just have to do the work involved as opposed to buying a kit where someone has done the work for you.

I have been to the dyno twice, made 8-10 pulls and still don't have the bugs worked out yet.
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post #31 of 33 Old 06-14-2009, 04:48 PM
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505 rwhp isnt bad, but does the map match? is your combo a 360W with good heads? are you revving the turbo to death?im not saying NOT to do a home kit. i an running a home kit,but the turbo matches what i am doing. im directly in the max efficiency at mid range.
i dont have the map of an H1C.

in essence a 360W with good heads can make that power all motor, so were talking a huge turbo or a nice pair. i have a buddy who has a late model 6.2l out of an 09 escalade. the heads flow 328cfm stock. bt the time we mapped it and figured what he needed it was in the 108 lb/min range at full tilt. i might be off a littel but it was in that range. 900hp im talking. i went through garrett's turbo's and the result was rediculously expensive. so twins it will be.

its going into a 57 chevy. he got the stinkin thing for like 600 dollars harness/pcm/tranny and all.

96 mustang GT-93 teksid 4v forged: ported heads, kellogg crank, billet i-beams, CP forged pistons, 9.4:1, BIG turbo, 4x28x12 fmic, big boost.

2011 GT 300A, 3.73, M6, spoiler delete, brembos
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post #32 of 33 Old 07-02-2009, 12:02 AM
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The problem with looking for a cheap junkyard turbo for our cars is that most are either too small or too big. The powerstroke ford turbo are really big and require a special bracket to be able to feed the oil. Most Holset's are too small unless you get like a HX50 or 55 but those are expensive and you can get a much better turbo. There are many different size H1C's but they are just about the same size as a HX35. I am going to be running a single HX35 on my car DESPITE everyone saying it is too small, i am only looking to make 300hp.

I agree with the question asked before that you spent all that money on the motor but you wanna spend a couple hundred bucks for a turbo?

What I would do if you must have a cheap turbo is keep an eye out on ebay and http://www.cumminsforum.com/ classifieds, lots of people selling off there old turbos because they upgraded.

Your best bet would be to find a H1E turbo which is extremley hard to find, it is essentially a HX40 which is a little easier to find. But both are pretty pricey as far as a JY turbo goes.

Again if you are set on getting a JY turbo what I would do is find a HX35 in good condition, you can find them for 200-300 on ebay and that forum I said. Get it rebuilt if it needs be, and upgrade the hot and cold side on it. Most Holset turbos comes with really really small exhaust housings, most HX35's come with 12cm^2 housings.

Go to this site.
http://htturbo.com/thnew.htm
and get a 16cm^2 non wastegated housing so you can use an external wastegate

then go here
http://htturbo.com/cu.htm
and get the stage 3 compressor upgrade. You will need to have it machined by a shop to make it work though, should cost more than a 100.

After you do that you will have a HX35/40 hybrid, which should support the amount HP you want to make, but even then for the motor you have I still think that would be too small.

The good thing about the hybrid is you dont have to spend all the money at once, you can do it slowly, but you will still be spending more than 600 total in turbo and parts. With the motor you have I just cannot see someone throwing a junkyard turbo on it.

I would go with a MP t70 from Brian at B&G for $575 and be done with it. Then just make a DIY kit.
http://bgturbokits.com/store/index.p...products_id=79

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Last edited by mob; 07-02-2009 at 12:04 AM.
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post #33 of 33 Old 07-26-2009, 09:30 PM
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Yeah a hx35 is a good turbo for a 2.3. I run a variant on my svo and am at about the end of its power range in the low 400's. If you could find a pair of hx40's that would be a good cheap turbo for your combo if you want to do twins. the internal gates wont be enough for low boost app's so you will HAVE to run externals. Save your nickels and dimes and do a pt76 or similar.
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