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post #1 of 44 Old 05-08-2009, 04:07 AM Thread Starter
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How Streetable Would This Be?

im tryin to decide if i wanna put a turbo kit on or not. Would a stock 302 shortblock,gt40p heads,stock cam,cobra intake,42's,3.27 gear,B&G 67mm single kit be very streeable? Would i be able to drive it alot,go on trips,ect? Let me know as much info as possible,thanx

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post #2 of 44 Old 05-08-2009, 09:13 AM
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I just ordered a kit from BG. Just call Brian and tell him what you are looking for. My car is a pretty basic KK short block, performer heads, victor intake, E cam, 70MM TB. I ordered his Stage 1 kit and upgraded to ceramic coating and had him make extra cut in the exhaust so I could easily get to plugs.

I have long since been tired of all the noise with my car. I am installing Damplifier to quiet things down and I am using 2.73 gears. Not a track car anymore. Like to drive it 400 miles at a time a few times a year up the Florida turnpike.

One of the things Brian said was with a mild 302/306 a 70 MM turbo would work but not be quite as fun as a slightly smaller turbo.....at least for the daily driver. One of my other goals was to maintain longevity with the 70K mile motor that I have. Keep the power under 550.

Just as a side note, I had a Vortec with about 17 lbs of boost but I sold it about a 1.5 years ago. I believe I was very close to 500 at the wheels. I have taken a long time to pick a turbo kit.

Remember factors such as your cooling system....radiator and fan setup are important. The BG kit is designed for Stand alone computer because of the one peice pipe that goes from intercooler to throttle body. You will have to cut material out for blow through MAF or switch to stand alone computer. Other than that the stage 1 kit should be very streetable.

I am by no means well versed with installing/driving turbo cars but this is where my research has lead me. Good luck and I am sure the rest of the gang will chime in.

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post #3 of 44 Old 05-08-2009, 10:07 AM
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post #4 of 44 Old 05-08-2009, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssomustang50 View Post
im tryin to decide if i wanna put a turbo kit on or not. Would a stock 302 shortblock,gt40p heads,stock cam,cobra intake,42's,3.27 gear,B&G 67mm single kit be very streeable? Would i be able to drive it alot,go on trips,ect? Let me know as much info as possible,thanx
Similar combo here and I drive it everywhere.

1986 Mustang GT
306 E303, TEA 185 TW, Quicktime Turbo 67mm, Redneck C4 15lbs boost
525hp/626tq
*Sold drivetrain - Rolling Chassis may be available*
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post #5 of 44 Old 05-08-2009, 03:05 PM Thread Starter
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how far & how long do u other guys drive it for? what kind of cooling system would i need? would stock fan work if i got a aluminum rad? thanx,keep it comin
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post #6 of 44 Old 05-08-2009, 03:38 PM
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I have a very similar engine setup but twin turbos. GT40Ps, had a cobra intake but now have edelbrock performer, stock cam, full smog equipement, 42# injectors. The car runs like a stocker. That is the beauty of turbos. Nothing turbo related affects the ability to drive it every day.
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post #7 of 44 Old 05-08-2009, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssomustang50 View Post
how far & how long do u other guys drive it for? what kind of cooling system would i need? would stock fan work if i got a aluminum rad? thanx,keep it comin
I use mine as my daily except for Winter, drive it 60 miles roundtrip to the track, 30 or so miles to the 'local' A&W and countless miles in city.


I run a griffon radiator with a black magic fan and standard rotation waterpump. Nothing too trick at all, as posted above - beautiful thing to have power in a car that runs like a stocker

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306 E303, TEA 185 TW, Quicktime Turbo 67mm, Redneck C4 15lbs boost
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post #8 of 44 Old 05-08-2009, 05:05 PM Thread Starter
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sounds like a good deal,thanx guys
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post #9 of 44 Old 05-08-2009, 09:48 PM Thread Starter
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any more input? keep em comin
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post #10 of 44 Old 05-09-2009, 02:13 AM
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I drive mine everyday...just remember wrap ANYTHING/EVERYTHING with heat shield/header wrap/thermo-tec...Turbo's have a tendency to melt a lot of crap. I found that one out the hard way...melted 2 clutch cables, a high pressure power steering line, a couple of wire harnesses...

On 2nd thought, buy stock in Thermo-Tec.

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post #11 of 44 Old 05-09-2009, 02:46 AM Thread Starter
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by the way,how much rwhp u guys think i will make w/this setup?
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post #12 of 44 Old 05-09-2009, 04:57 AM
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Depends on how much boost, but I think about 350-400 @ around 10-12 psi.

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post #13 of 44 Old 05-09-2009, 07:43 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Smokin95 View Post
Depends on how much boost, but I think about 350-400 @ around 10-12 psi.
thats all? bone stock ones are makin almost 450-475,i thought around 500-550rwhp
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post #14 of 44 Old 05-09-2009, 07:44 AM
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You'll be fine....10-12lbs with a decent tune 400+
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post #15 of 44 Old 05-09-2009, 10:27 AM
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Your motor probably makes 270rwhp as it sits.

Throw 10 psi at it and you get ideally 68% more air. Figure 450rwhp on 10 psi.

You want 500-550rwhp, you got spin the turbo! Think 15psi at that point.
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post #16 of 44 Old 05-09-2009, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssomustang50 View Post
thats all? bone stock ones are makin almost 450-475,i thought around 500-550rwhp
Buddy has a 100% stock coupe witha 76mm gts hellion kit - at 18lbs he made 480.


My car made 416/500 on 9lbs of boost and I had some big issues when I dyno'd the car. I haven't put it back on the rollers but it runs 10.50's so i'm sure it's making more than that. However, i'm running 12lbs of boost now too.

1986 Mustang GT
306 E303, TEA 185 TW, Quicktime Turbo 67mm, Redneck C4 15lbs boost
525hp/626tq
*Sold drivetrain - Rolling Chassis may be available*
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post #17 of 44 Old 05-09-2009, 12:39 PM
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I made 468/514 on a stock motor with a hellion 62mm kit. Drove it all the time, wish I left it that way

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post #18 of 44 Old 05-09-2009, 12:54 PM
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b&g here with t-67
making 440hp and 475tq at the wheels with a super conservitive tune on a 306 w tfs H/i/stage 1 cam 42lbinjectors and 255 pump tuned using megasquirt on 7lbs of boost. with ac/ps and everthing else only goes out on nice days but i take it everywhere on nice days. So yes it can be done and i plan on doing it this summer with even more power

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post #19 of 44 Old 05-09-2009, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssomustang50 View Post
thats all? bone stock ones are makin almost 450-475,i thought around 500-550rwhp

I didn't know if you were limited to 91 pump gas or what. But your combo isn't that crazy either. Stock cam with Explorer heads and Cobra intake is only a 200ish RWHP combo. Throw 10 psi at it (approx 20 rwhp per psi) and you're looking around 400 to the ground.

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post #20 of 44 Old 05-09-2009, 11:41 PM Thread Starter
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ill be running 93 pump gas. Ive read a couple articles where they had a bone stock w/only under drive pullies,maybe 1 or 2 other things & it made like 467rwhp. i just thought id make atleast alil more w/the upgrades ill have. You guys think 67mm is right for me?
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post #21 of 44 Old 05-09-2009, 11:56 PM
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You first have to ask yourself how much power you WANT to make. ONly then will you know what size turbo to use. Plug your information into the equations below to find out exactly what size you need. This is an example I used for a stock motor Twin Turbo 03/04 Cobra.


I'm trying to find out what size turbo is capable of supporting around 1200 HP (flywheel), roughly 1000 rwhp on a stock motor Cobra. I used a VE of .95 and a BFSC (Brake specific fuel consumption) of.85 to determine my final numbers. Those are pretty important numbers so I want to be as accurate as possible. You could double check my work but I got a pressure ratio of 3.30 and a PsiA of 45.25. Which when plotted = a MINIMUM of 57mm turbos that are breathing for all they're worth

ROUGH ESTIMATE FIRST:
1200HP @ 10 hp per pound of air = 120/2 = 60 ppm per compressor for a twin configuration

Actual Math.

Wa = HP x A/F x BSFC / 60 1200 x 11.7 x .85/60 = 198.8

Wa = Airflow actual (lb/min) 198.8 /2 = 99.45 (twin turbo application)
HP = Target flywheel HP
A/F = Air Fuel Ratio
BSFC = convert hours to minutes divide by 60


MAPreq = Wa x R x (460 + Tm) 99.45 x 639.6 x 590 = 43.25Psi(A)
VE x N/2 x VD .95 x 3250 x 281

· MAPreq = Manifold Absolute Pressure (psia) required to meet the horsepower target
· Wa = Airflowactual(lb/min)
· R = Gas Constant = 639.6
· Tm = Intake Manifold Temperature (degrees F) (130 typical intercooled temp)
· VE = Volumetric Efficiency
· N = Engine speed (RPM)
· Vd = engine displacement

43.25 (Absolute press.) -14.7 (atmospheric press.) = 28.5 PsiG (PsiG = Gauge pressure)

I will assume that there is a 2 psi inefficiency loss. So to determine the Compressor Discharge Pressure (P2c), 2 psi will be added to the manifold pressure calculated above.

P2c = MAP + ΔPloss 43.25 + 2 = 45.25

Where:

· P2c = Compressor Discharge Pressure (psia)
· MAP = Manifold Absolute Pressure (psia)
· ΔPloss = Pressure Loss Between the Compressor and the Manifold (psi)

P1c = Pamb - ΔPloss 13.7 = 14.7 - 1


Where:

· P1c = Compressor Inlet Pressure (psia)
· Pamb = Ambient Air pressure (psia)
· ΔPloss = Pressure Loss due to Air Filter/Piping (psi)

With this, we can calculate Pressure Ratio using the equation.

P2c / P1c = Pressure ratio 45.25/13.7 = 3.30


With these figures calculated you can plot it on a compressor map.

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Complete Maximum Motorports (and QA1) Suspension
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Last edited by Smokin95; 05-10-2009 at 12:02 AM.
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post #22 of 44 Old 05-10-2009, 01:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokin95 View Post
You first have to ask yourself how much power you WANT to make. ONly then will you know what size turbo to use. Plug your information into the equations below to find out exactly what size you need. This is an example I used for a stock motor Twin Turbo 03/04 Cobra.


I'm trying to find out what size turbo is capable of supporting around 1200 HP (flywheel), roughly 1000 rwhp on a stock motor Cobra. I used a VE of .95 and a BFSC (Brake specific fuel consumption) of.85 to determine my final numbers. Those are pretty important numbers so I want to be as accurate as possible. You could double check my work but I got a pressure ratio of 3.30 and a PsiA of 45.25. Which when plotted = a MINIMUM of 57mm turbos that are breathing for all they're worth

ROUGH ESTIMATE FIRST:
1200HP @ 10 hp per pound of air = 120/2 = 60 ppm per compressor for a twin configuration

Actual Math.

Wa = HP x A/F x BSFC / 60 1200 x 11.7 x .85/60 = 198.8

Wa = Airflow actual (lb/min) 198.8 /2 = 99.45 (twin turbo application)
HP = Target flywheel HP
A/F = Air Fuel Ratio
BSFC = convert hours to minutes divide by 60


MAPreq = Wa x R x (460 + Tm) 99.45 x 639.6 x 590 = 43.25Psi(A)
VE x N/2 x VD .95 x 3250 x 281

· MAPreq = Manifold Absolute Pressure (psia) required to meet the horsepower target
· Wa = Airflowactual(lb/min)
· R = Gas Constant = 639.6
· Tm = Intake Manifold Temperature (degrees F) (130 typical intercooled temp)
· VE = Volumetric Efficiency
· N = Engine speed (RPM)
· Vd = engine displacement

43.25 (Absolute press.) -14.7 (atmospheric press.) = 28.5 PsiG (PsiG = Gauge pressure)

I will assume that there is a 2 psi inefficiency loss. So to determine the Compressor Discharge Pressure (P2c), 2 psi will be added to the manifold pressure calculated above.

P2c = MAP + ΔPloss 43.25 + 2 = 45.25

Where:

· P2c = Compressor Discharge Pressure (psia)
· MAP = Manifold Absolute Pressure (psia)
· ΔPloss = Pressure Loss Between the Compressor and the Manifold (psi)

P1c = Pamb - ΔPloss 13.7 = 14.7 - 1


Where:

· P1c = Compressor Inlet Pressure (psia)
· Pamb = Ambient Air pressure (psia)
· ΔPloss = Pressure Loss due to Air Filter/Piping (psi)

With this, we can calculate Pressure Ratio using the equation.

P2c / P1c = Pressure ratio 45.25/13.7 = 3.30


With these figures calculated you can plot it on a compressor map.
What this guy said.
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post #23 of 44 Old 05-10-2009, 01:36 AM Thread Starter
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im not sure if i know the #'s to plug in,im not sure on everything
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post #24 of 44 Old 05-10-2009, 01:45 AM
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How much power are you looking to make? Answer that first.

Then decide if your engine has enough cylinder head/camshaft/intake manifold for decided power level. THEN pick a turbo to get you the rest of the way. You can't throw a random size out there and hope for the best. It's kind of like your wife asking, "does this make me look fat?"...over the phone.

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Last edited by Smokin95; 05-10-2009 at 01:49 AM.
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post #25 of 44 Old 05-10-2009, 10:45 AM
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im not sure if i know the #'s to plug in,im not sure on everything
If you are not sure you could always buy a kit without the turbocharger itself and then call a place that sells/builds turbos and discuss your goals with them and they will size something for you and sell it to you direct.

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post #26 of 44 Old 05-10-2009, 11:21 AM Thread Starter
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i talked to B&G & they said w/my combo & 67 kit ill still make around 500-550 rwhp,that sound right? they said the 70mm would be too big since i didnt have more cubes,67 would make same power b/c it would be more efficient & spool faster
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post #27 of 44 Old 05-10-2009, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssomustang50 View Post
i talked to B&G & they said w/my combo & 67 kit ill still make around 500-550 rwhp,that sound right? they said the 70mm would be too big since i didnt have more cubes,67 would make same power b/c it would be more efficient & spool faster
Brian at B&G it a good guy who knows his stuff, if thats what he said, I would listen to him.

I run stock cooling system (it was all new tho) with a sn-95 ele fan. daily driver/family car for about a yr lol even took a 700 mile round trip to Chicago area. never had a issue.

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post #28 of 44 Old 05-11-2009, 01:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssomustang50 View Post
i talked to B&G & they said w/my combo & 67 kit ill still make around 500-550 rwhp,that sound right? they said the 70mm would be too big since i didnt have more cubes,67 would make same power b/c it would be more efficient & spool faster
There is a minimal difference between a 67 and 70mm turbo. The spool difference between the 2 is less than 3/400 rpm. Like I said bro, You MUST determine how much power you want to make BEFORE you can select the appropriate turbo. I'll even plug in the math for you, but you're chasing your tail right now and BG is doing the same because there is no such thing as a one size fits all turbo. Plus if all you tell a shop you want the most power possible, they sell you the biggest turbo. Is it starting to make sense?

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post #29 of 44 Old 05-11-2009, 06:50 AM
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I didn't know if you were limited to 91 pump gas or what. But your combo isn't that crazy either. Stock cam with Explorer heads and Cobra intake is only a 200ish RWHP combo. Throw 10 psi at it (approx 20 rwhp per psi) and you're looking around 400 to the ground.
I’m scratching my head on this one. Considering a stock 5.0 mustang typically throws down low 190’s at the wheels, an explorer top end (even using a stock 5.0 cam) should be throwing down somewhere in the 250rwhp range or more. From those I’ve seen running them, 10psi on your typical exploder combo yields somewhere in the 450rwhp range.

Quote:
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There is a minimal difference between a 67 and 70mm turbo. The spool difference between the 2 is less than 3/400 rpm. Like I said bro, You MUST determine how much power you want to make BEFORE you can select the appropriate turbo. I'll even plug in the math for you, but you're chasing your tail right now and BG is doing the same because there is no such thing as a one size fits all turbo. Plus if all you tell a shop you want the most power possible, they sell you the biggest turbo. Is it starting to make sense?
Really, a 67 is a good fit for the power levels he’s looking to run using a stock cam. Sure, it may run out of steam before the 70mm….but keeping the rpms down on a stock 5.0 block can be critical to its longevity. The 67mm may not be a “perfect” fit, but I believe the selection for your typical B&G kit is somewhat limited (unless you go cutsom). 3/400 rpm may not sound like a lot if your only concern is the strip….but it can add a hell of a lot more fun on the street, which is exactly where it sounds like it’s going to be driven 99% of the time.

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post #30 of 44 Old 05-11-2009, 01:26 PM Thread Starter
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im lookin to make around 500-550 hopefully. I wanna drive to car on the street most of time like it was stated. Im just lookin for the most efficent & most power i can make w/a stock setup & be able to drive it anywhere & everywhere i wanna,but have to power when i need it or want it. like i said i seen a few stock make 460-480rwhp,so i just thought id make alil more than them.
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post #31 of 44 Old 05-11-2009, 02:28 PM
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im lookin to make around 500-550 hopefully. I wanna drive to car on the street most of time like it was stated. Im just lookin for the most efficent & most power i can make w/a stock setup & be able to drive it anywhere & everywhere i wanna,but have to power when i need it or want it. like i said i seen a few stock make 460-480rwhp,so i just thought id make alil more than them.
They (stockers) were not likely making it with 10psi or less…but likely in the 16+ psi. Those that somehow actually do lay down those numbers either have no clue what “actual” boost they are running, have a number happy dyno operator or a variety of other things. If you want 500-550rwhp, you are going to need to push 12+ psi to do so. Just be sure to inform who-ever you are buying the turbo from EXAXTLY what your expectations are, inside and out.
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post #32 of 44 Old 05-11-2009, 05:28 PM
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OK so we'll shoot for the middle and say 525 hp.

Wa = HP x A/F x BSFC / 60 620 x 11.7 x .85/60 = 102.76

Wa = Airflow actual (lb/min) 102
HP = Target flywheel HP 620
A/F = Air Fuel Ratio 11.7
BSFC = convert hours to minutes divide by 60


MAPreq = Wa x R x (460 + Tm) 102 x 639.6 x 590 = 49.98 Psi(A)
VE x N/2 x VD .85 x 3000 x 302

· MAPreq = Manifold Absolute Pressure (psia) required to meet the horsepower target
· Wa = Airflowactual(lb/min)
· R = Gas Constant = 639.6
· Tm = Intake Manifold Temperature (degrees F) (130 typical intercooled temp)
· VE = Volumetric Efficiency
· N = Engine speed (RPM)
· Vd = engine displacement

49.98 (Absolute press.) -14.7 (atmospheric press.) = 35.28 PsiG (PsiG = Gauge pressure)

I will assume that there is a 2 psi inefficiency loss. So to determine the Compressor Discharge Pressure (P2c), 2 psi will be added to the manifold pressure calculated above.

P2c = MAP + ΔPloss 49.98 + 2 = 51.98

Where:

· P2c = Compressor Discharge Pressure (psia)
· MAP = Manifold Absolute Pressure (psia)
· ΔPloss = Pressure Loss Between the Compressor and the Manifold (psi)

P1c = Pamb - ΔPloss 13.7 = 14.7 - 1


Where:

· P1c = Compressor Inlet Pressure (psia)
· Pamb = Ambient Air pressure (psia)
· ΔPloss = Pressure Loss due to Air Filter/Piping (psi)

With this, we can calculate Pressure Ratio using the equation.

P2c / P1c = Pressure ratio 51.98/13.7 = 3.8

With these figures calculated you can plot it on a compressor map.

So look at your compressor maps and plot the following points:

Pressure ratio = 3.8 - usually X-axis
Compressor Discharge Pressure = 51.98 - usually y-axis

When you find a turbo with these points on an efficieny island, you've hit the efficiency jackpot.

2004 COBRA Twin 57mm Garrett Turbo's AND Zex
Complete Maximum Motorports (and QA1) Suspension
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Last edited by Smokin95; 05-11-2009 at 05:31 PM.
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post #33 of 44 Old 05-11-2009, 07:07 PM Thread Starter
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umm ok,thanx. So what does all that tell me? haha im kinda lost,have a easier explaination?
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post #34 of 44 Old 05-11-2009, 07:36 PM
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Not really. Look up the turbo you were recommended and then look up the compressor map on it. plot the points and viola it is either in the efficiency range or not.

There is a science to picking turbo's it isn't just bolt and go, it takes research.

Chris

1993 Notch HCI /1994 Lightning / 1973 F250 Hiboy/ 1986 Omni GLH /
1994 Cummins 3500 / 1997 Cummins 3500 /1980 F250 6cyl
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post #35 of 44 Old 05-11-2009, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssomustang50 View Post
umm ok,thanx. So what does all that tell me? haha im kinda lost,have a easier explaination?
Look up the compressor maps for the turbos you were quoted and plot the data. Then you will know which one to use.

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Complete Maximum Motorports (and QA1) Suspension
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