Discuss EFI Victor Spyder intake - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
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post #1 of 23 Old 05-04-2009, 10:22 AM Thread Starter
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Discuss EFI Victor Spyder intake

Okay open topic for discussion: I am contemplating switching from the 94/95 factory style Cobra upper and lower to a Edelbrock or Wilsons EFI Victor short runner manifold.

My current combo is Dart 4.125" 347ci, AFR185, custom ground cam (.598"/.579", 234*/236* dur, 116* lobe separation, intake on center at 112*) and matched springs, Precision T76, Aeromotive Eliminator fuel system to power the space shuttle, 75mm T/B, 60lb inj., AEM EMS, EPM and LS2 Coils etc. Drive train is a Viper T56 and 3.27 rear gears

My requirements:
Retain heater even if I have to redesign the heater tube or create my own out of hose and or tubing and fittings.
Clear factory hood (MM K-Member and Energy Suspension mounts).
F/B style T/B needs to clear Moroso Fabricated V/Cs.
Will my Aeromotive/Trick Flow fuel rails work or could I make them work with a bracket to mount them?


My reasons:
Switch to an 80mm T/B
Mount LS2 Coils on the V/C
Open Cold side to 4" from intercooler
Lighter manifold and elbow combination
Easier to work on by pulling the T/B off the elbow vs removing entire upper manifold.

Pics would be helpful if any of you have a 94/95 with this set up.

Talk me into or out of this swap. I posted the same in the 94/95 tech but realized I would get better info in here.

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post #2 of 23 Old 05-04-2009, 04:37 PM
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Well if you decide to do that and need the spyder elbow upper, I've got a new one that I had professionally ported I ended up not using. Let it go for 120 shipped.


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post #3 of 23 Old 05-04-2009, 04:41 PM
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The issue is usually the intake elbow. The low profile ones will not or barley clear the fuel rails. The taller ones obviouslly have hood clearance issues.

Do you have access to someone local that can fabricate you a intake elbow? That is your best bet. A tight radius 3.5" bend would work well. Then you can place the throttle body where ever you need it. We did that on my car. I run the Vic Sr. (taller than the Jr) and a 4" (4"center line radius) intake elbow. Was pretty simple to make. Looks great and clear every thing including the tall Ford Motorsport valve covers. I just prefer the short ones. And it clears the stock hood, shock tower, etc. It is also a 90mm throttle body. All the off the shelf elbows I tried would not work. Yes it is a foxbody but you get the point. Material was cheap. Like $40. So some labor was worth it. Something you may want to look in to.



fyi, the Edelbrock short profile elbow does not even clear their fuel rails on that intake. So you have to run a spacer. What good is a low profile elbow if you need a spacer to make it work???

Buy the fuel rails with the intake. They are specific to the intake and not worth making or modifying yours to work. The Edelbrock ones are like $80 a pair. You can't beat that.

The heater tube will not work. Some barb fittings and rubber hose takes care of that. The issue could be the coolant temp sensor the ECU uses. In the foxbody the one in the intake is just for the temp gauge. The one in the heater tube is the one the ECU uses. And with a temp sending unit for the gauge in the intake there was no room for the other sender. You have two options. Drill and tap the intake some where else for the sender. Or make a contraption like mine (not pictured). lol The heater hose and sending unit are in the same spot. It doesn't look bad and works fine. If we had thought about this before I may have changed the way we did it. Oh well. Next time. hahaha

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Last edited by 331merc; 05-04-2009 at 04:43 PM.
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post #4 of 23 Old 05-05-2009, 01:12 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 331merc View Post
The issue is usually the intake elbow. The low profile ones will not or barley clear the fuel rails. The taller ones obviouslly have hood clearance issues.

Do you have access to someone local that can fabricate you a intake elbow? That is your best bet. A tight radius 3.5" bend would work well. Then you can place the throttle body where ever you need it. We did that on my car. I run the Vic Sr. (taller than the Jr) and a 4" (4"center line radius) intake elbow. Was pretty simple to make. Looks great and clear every thing including the tall Ford Motorsport valve covers. I just prefer the short ones. And it clears the stock hood, shock tower, etc. It is also a 90mm throttle body. All the off the shelf elbows I tried would not work. Yes it is a foxbody but you get the point. Material was cheap. Like $40. So some labor was worth it. Something you may want to look in to.



fyi, the Edelbrock short profile elbow does not even clear their fuel rails on that intake. So you have to run a spacer. What good is a low profile elbow if you need a spacer to make it work???

Buy the fuel rails with the intake. They are specific to the intake and not worth making or modifying yours to work. The Edelbrock ones are like $80 a pair. You can't beat that.

The heater tube will not work. Some barb fittings and rubber hose takes care of that. The issue could be the coolant temp sensor the ECU uses. In the foxbody the one in the intake is just for the temp gauge. The one in the heater tube is the one the ECU uses. And with a temp sending unit for the gauge in the intake there was no room for the other sender. You have two options. Drill and tap the intake some where else for the sender. Or make a contraption like mine (not pictured). lol The heater hose and sending unit are in the same spot. It doesn't look bad and works fine. If we had thought about this before I may have changed the way we did it. Oh well. Next time. hahaha

Thanks for the info. I have a line on a probe spyder manifold and have looked at the Edelbrocks for the 302. I have a guy that is doing the install for me (Brooks "turbostang" on the boards) who does custom builds and tons of custom fabrication for people in the DFW area all on the side. I am going to have him build an elbow so it will clear the tall Moroso fabricated valve covers. Would be cool to figure out how to switch to a 4v oval throttle body for hood clearence, would need to figure out the IAC ports and mounting though.

I looked up the Edelbrock fuel rails and you are right for $80 you can't beat that. I just wished they were straight cut -an threads instead of pipe thread. I already have all the fittings for my Aeromotive (Trickflow) rails of wich I have two sets now.

For the heater and the temp gauges I may drill and tap the rear of the manifold. Not that I need the factory temp gauge to work since I have an AEM water temp going in and it uses the same sensor and signal as the ECM sending unit does. The heater I may do myself when I get home in August I would rather run all -an fittings and hose up to the firewall anyways. (would be cool to tig -an bungs to the heater core but should have done that when the motor was out)

Where did you get the flanges to use on the elbow?
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post #5 of 23 Old 05-05-2009, 08:35 AM Thread Starter
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What about switching to the Accufab 4150 flanged 4bbl throttle body? It has an IAC built into it and would give tons more hood clearance with a carb hat.
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post #6 of 23 Old 05-05-2009, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbscobravert View Post
What about switching to the Accufab 4150 flanged 4bbl throttle body? It has an IAC built into it and would give tons more hood clearance with a carb hat.
It's close, just about got mine to clear.

Requires use of AEM plug-n-play computer to make the TB sensors work
though.

Mine is on a 351W too, would easily clear on a 8.5" deck block




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Last edited by r.barn; 05-05-2009 at 12:16 PM.
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post #7 of 23 Old 05-05-2009, 12:19 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by r.barn View Post
It's close, just about got mine to clear.

Requires use of AEM plug-n-play computer to make the TB sensors work
though.



man I just tried to send you a pm with some questions about this stuff. your box is full. lol


the car is a '95 Cobra with a MM K-member and a Dart 8.2 based block.

but yep I have an AEM ECM with EPM and LS2 coils etc.
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post #8 of 23 Old 05-05-2009, 12:30 PM
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hmmm, thanks didnt know my box was full, fixed.

It will clear your hood, especially if you get inventive with intake pipe
routing like I did and have the 302 based block.

We never could figure out how to make the IAC work, but the AEM idles
my engine with 240 dur / .625 lift cam with no IAC at 900rpm just fine.

There was a guy on the AEM forums that said he got his IAC to work somehow.

Used a $30 throttle cable for 1986 Mustang from Autozone and a custom
cable mounting bracket.

Works like a charm

Other routing I've tried


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post #9 of 23 Old 05-05-2009, 12:34 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r.barn View Post
hmmm, thanks didnt know my box was full, fixed.

It will clear your hood, especially if you get inventive with intake pipe
routing like I did and have the 302 based block.

We never could figure out how to make the IAC work, but the AEM idles
my engine with 240 dur / .625 lift cam with no IAC at 900rpm just fine.

There was a guy on the AEM forums that said he got his IAC to work somehow.

Used a $30 throttle cable for 1986 Mustang from Autozone and a custom
cable mounting bracket.

Works like a charm

Other routing I've tried

Well here I will put the pm up here so others can use the info too.

Have you figured out a way to do cruise control on the throttle linkage?
Got any more file pics that may mean nothing but could help with the throttle linkage and what not?
Did you retain the heater, how is it plumbed?

I am sure I will have more questions.

I am wanting to fit it all under a stock '95 Cobra hood. So far a 94-95 Cobra manifold with a 3/8" spacer clears. Would love to know what the combined height is from block deck to compare with.

Guess I need to start ordering some more parts.
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post #10 of 23 Old 05-05-2009, 12:50 PM
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There is a heater core port on top of the intake
just screw in barb'd 90 and run heater hoses back to heater core.
They lay flat next to fuel rail and look fine.

Screwd temp sensor into T-stat housing hole

No cruise control. Not a big deal for me.
You could always be the first to make it work


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post #11 of 23 Old 05-05-2009, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbscobravert View Post
Thanks for the info. I have a line on a probe spyder manifold and have looked at the Edelbrocks for the 302. I have a guy that is doing the install for me (Brooks "turbostang" on the boards) who does custom builds and tons of custom fabrication for people in the DFW area all on the side. I am going to have him build an elbow so it will clear the tall Moroso fabricated valve covers. Would be cool to figure out how to switch to a 4v oval throttle body for hood clearence, would need to figure out the IAC ports and mounting though.

I looked up the Edelbrock fuel rails and you are right for $80 you can't beat that. I just wished they were straight cut -an threads instead of pipe thread. I already have all the fittings for my Aeromotive (Trickflow) rails of wich I have two sets now.

For the heater and the temp gauges I may drill and tap the rear of the manifold. Not that I need the factory temp gauge to work since I have an AEM water temp going in and it uses the same sensor and signal as the ECM sending unit does. The heater I may do myself when I get home in August I would rather run all -an fittings and hose up to the firewall anyways. (would be cool to tig -an bungs to the heater core but should have done that when the motor was out)

Where did you get the flanges to use on the elbow?

I know if Brooks. You are in good hands. He should be able to make the elbow with ease.

I had a EGR delete plate already. So we used that for the throttle body and cable bracket mount. So the cruise control and AOD TV cable could be used. The base we made a plate on the cnc machine. To make it real nice. But you could make a base plate with simple hand tools with no problem. Flat stock, drill four mounting holes, hole saw the center and grind to finish the center hole.

The oval throttle body may make it much harder to fabricate with out gaining a lot of clearance. Plus you would have to look at the cable hook ups, tps, etc. I am sure it can be done. Not sure it would be worth the effort.

I bet you could get the elbow & throttle body under 6" from the intake mounting flange with a 3.5" elbow. The center line of a 3.5" tight radius or donut is 3.5". So add another 1.75" (half of the 3.5" diameter) to the 3.5" CLR. That is 5.25". Now add for the .50" mounting flange. That is 5.75". I don't know how high the throttle body and carb hat would be like r.barn is using. But I doubt it is much lower than that. If not taller yet. A holly carb in my office is almost 5" tall. So not sure how much lower the EFI unit is.

Do they make drop motor mounts for your year? That is another great help as well.

The AEM is a big help when doing custom stuff for sure. But in the past I have had issues running a temp gauge in the rear of the intake. I would get spikes and higher readings all the time. With out a cross over in the back I think you get poor fluid movement back there. And the water sits there getting hot till rpms climb. I would try and keep the sender in the front port of the intake. Seemed to be a more accurate spot. Some thing to think about and look into.

Mike 1986 Capri street car w/ a/c, p/s & p/w
Custom built T6 80mm s400sx based kit Shaunthony's built (Twin Trouble and Anthony Fury)
9.31 @ 146 1.39 60' on drag radials @ 3735# Kurgan tuned AEM EMS
80mm 718rwhp new 88mm 921rwhp No new track times yet
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post #12 of 23 Old 05-05-2009, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbscobravert View Post
Would be cool to figure out how to switch to a 4v oval throttle body for hood clearence
I'm interested in a spyder with this style tbody. Has anyone done it? Is there generic tubing available to fit this style or would I need to pilage a CAI?
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post #13 of 23 Old 05-06-2009, 01:30 AM
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Why do you want to increase your coldside piping to 4" after the intercooler, you will lose your velocity.

1965 Cobra replica with twin turbo Dart block 331
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post #14 of 23 Old 05-06-2009, 05:32 AM Thread Starter
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Why do you want to increase your coldside piping to 4" after the intercooler, you will lose your velocity.
Then is it safe to assume that the shorter the coldside the more velocity then? If so I will be able to cut the entire coldside pipping by half if I go to driverside T/B.
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post #15 of 23 Old 05-06-2009, 08:18 AM
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Awesome setups guys. You said something about running a 4v TB. Pro M(Yes,theyre in business again), makes a adapter plug they say...

"This adapter allows use of more modern mass air meters in earlier vehicles. One end connects to later model meters with 4 and 6 pin rectangular connectors. The other end connects to the 4 pin oval harness connector found in earlier Ford vehicles. This adapter is far superior, cleaner looking, and much more reliable than the goofy pigtail adapters offered by our competition.
Retail Price $50"

Im not sure if that will work for you or not. Thought I'd throw it out there though.

Almost at the bottom of the page.
http://www.promracing.com/products.htm

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post #16 of 23 Old 05-06-2009, 10:15 AM Thread Starter
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That is for the MAF connector, thanks for the input though.
Speed density thru the AEM here. Besides making a 4v single blade would be way more trouble than it's worth I am sure.
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post #17 of 23 Old 05-06-2009, 11:03 AM
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I've got the GM stepper-type iac motor working with the mustang ems's.....

those looking to do the same can pm me for the info.

Have you checked out the sullivan low-pro elbow?

http://www.sullivanperformance.com/Y.../tbadapter.htm

I think this will be on my upcoming setup
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post #18 of 23 Old 05-06-2009, 11:33 AM Thread Starter
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I've got the GM stepper-type iac motor working with the mustang ems's.....

those looking to do the same can pm me for the info.

Have you checked out the sullivan low-pro elbow?

http://www.sullivanperformance.com/Y.../tbadapter.htm

I think this will be on my upcoming setup
man I saw those and wondered how would it clear a 94-95 car with all factory accessories and brackets (no distributor but I do have an EPM). Would a front facing t/b be the best? This adaptor would allow the IAC and possibly the factory cruise cable also.

If I wasn't worried about cutting up the car I would rear mount the t/b and go water/air behind the dash. As it is I am trying to accomplish all mods and still retain 100% of the factory functions and outward appearance.
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post #19 of 23 Old 05-10-2009, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazycoupe351 View Post
I've got the GM stepper-type iac motor working with the mustang ems's.....

those looking to do the same can pm me for the info.

Have you checked out the sullivan low-pro elbow?

http://www.sullivanperformance.com/Y.../tbadapter.htm

I think this will be on my upcoming setup
Very cool, any idea if the tps function for the 4v is the same as the 5.0 style?
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yup....tps is just going to be a 0-5v sensor... could prob use with a stock ecu, will for sure work with the aem.
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post #21 of 23 Old 05-11-2009, 06:37 AM Thread Starter
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Looks like I am going Accufab 90mm and elbow for a driverside inlet. If Accufab will sell me the 4bl and allow me to return the one that I can not get to work with the factory hood.
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post #22 of 23 Old 05-11-2009, 06:39 AM Thread Starter
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r.barn can you give me the installed height from manifold base/block to the top of the stud on the hat?
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post #23 of 23 Old 05-07-2010, 10:48 AM Thread Starter
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I still have tons to do before she is up and running but here is where I am at. Even clears the factory hood without any k-member modifications. I did have to machine down the intake manifold inlet pad .3750".







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