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post #1 of 59 Old 03-31-2009, 02:57 AM Thread Starter
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turbo turd

Any idea to why my car makes no power? the motor is a 331 with a r302 block, victor jr heads, holley systemax intake, 75mm accufab tb.anderson b451 cam, 1.6rr's. with the vortech ysi making about 10-11 psi it made 500rwhp and 520ft lbs, about 11.3 air fuel and 19 total timing.now with the QT kit and 76mm precision turbo at about 12 psi it makes 470hp and 480 ft pounds.similar air fuel and a bit more timing.im ready to burn the car since i thought a turbo would make huge power.its being tuned with a diablosport chipmaster on a dynapack dyno. heres some info on issues i know it has, boost curve is very erratic, it spikes 1-3 psi every 150 or so rpm through the pull. it has a tial 44mm wg with a 5 psi spring, yet it makes 12 psi without a boost controller. with a 8psi spring it made 14 psi at 3000 rpm alone.another problem is i forget how the shop who built the motor set the cam up, they either put it in advanced or retarded, i forget which one(its been 4 years), since they said it would be good to do it that way on a blower car.im wondering if its the cam thats choking my car out. insult to injury my tuner just dynoed his 4.6 99gt with a chinese on3 turbo kit with a 62mm turbo and made 497hp./520ftlb

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post #2 of 59 Old 03-31-2009, 07:33 AM
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Check your couplers! I just had a problem loosing boost and found a coupler that had blown off. After re-installing it tightly I was suddenly making 12psi….4 more than what I dyno’d in my sig! So for the better part of 3 years I’ve been secretly bleeding boost off…..likely costing me power and spool. I can’t wait to run it again with everything snug!


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post #3 of 59 Old 03-31-2009, 08:25 AM
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Ouch, yeah you have something going on there for sure. Does the car feel like it's choking, bucking, etc.... How much timing are you running, how are the 02 sensors - maf reading correctly?


For reference my E-cammed but otherwise stock shortblock, TEA TW heads 185cc, stock lower intake, AOD w non lockup, 3.73 gear car made 437/500 on 9lbs with a QT 67mm kit.

1986 Mustang GT
306 E303, TEA 185 TW, Quicktime Turbo 67mm, Redneck C4 15lbs boost
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post #4 of 59 Old 03-31-2009, 08:54 AM
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how's the plugs look?

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post #5 of 59 Old 03-31-2009, 09:27 AM
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maby its the flux capacitor?! id recheck the connections on the cold side, there can possibly be boost leaking from on of the couplings.
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post #6 of 59 Old 03-31-2009, 09:44 AM
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Its not the cam.

You have something seriously wrong in the system somewhere.
This one is going be hard to help with with out being there to start taking
stuff off to see whats wrong.

Wondering if you have a serious vacuum leak somewhere.
That would mess up power and wastegate control, but still not to
the extent you seem to be losing power.

Strange problem.

Was anything done to engine itself in between taking the s/c off
and putting the turbo on ?

A 331 with those parts and 76mm turbo pushing 12psi should be
hitting 600+rwhp easily.

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post #7 of 59 Old 03-31-2009, 10:20 AM
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Is this a on center turbine housing? What AR? Not that it has a huge impact on power, but from a control standpoint where is the wastegate?How are your charge pipes run?

A 76mm that is making 14psi by 3000 is going to be a backpressure monster on the right side of the tach.

Can you post up some pictures of your engine bay/gate location/charge pipes?

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post #8 of 59 Old 03-31-2009, 12:21 PM Thread Starter
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i'll post some pictures soon, just to answer some questions, the car isnt loosing boost,it gets 11-12 psi in the intake manifold.the car pulls strong on the runs without any bucking .the tuner has the maf voltage data logged and its fine.timing is about 19 total at 4000-6000. the o2s have been shut off with the diablo chip. for the wg boost signal i first had it coming off the turbine housing, and then switched it to right before the TB after someone told me i might get a better signal there i changed the hose just in case that was the problem. the boost curve with the ysi was also erratic but its a bit worse with the turbo.aside from the turbo i didnt change anything on the motor. the plugs are autolite, 2 ranges colder then stock and .34 gap. i was wondering if it could be valve float, but id think if it was loosing that much power it would sound really bad.

Last edited by DR.GRIP; 03-31-2009 at 12:26 PM.
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post #9 of 59 Old 03-31-2009, 12:34 PM
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If the s/c was erratic too, then definitely sounds like an engine problem
and not a turbo problem.

Do the springs match the cam properly as far as rates and pressures go ?
Is your valvetrain geometry correct ?

You mentioned cam had been advanced/retarded ... was it done correctly ?

Have you done a leak down and compression test on the engine itself ?

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post #10 of 59 Old 03-31-2009, 12:39 PM Thread Starter
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the engine builder is considered to be the best in the area for small block fords, but like everyone im sure they could have made a mistake. i forget what springs were put in, i would have to check my old paperwork. thats my next step to see if the springs are good, and installed heights are good etc. i did a compression test and its 120 all across with no variation, its 8.5:1 compression ratio.on leakdown it was 20%

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post #11 of 59 Old 03-31-2009, 12:44 PM
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i had the same issues with my 331 and vic jr's with a systemax intake. my exhaust housing was to small .68 went to a .96 and lower compression pistons to fix it! now it it is smooth at 13lbs of boost. I had a xe 274 cam and the car hated it switch it to a stock cam and the car loves it. now my compression is the same as yours.
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post #12 of 59 Old 03-31-2009, 02:42 PM
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backpressure is probably the cause for your boost creep. what size is the downpipe? what size a/r on the turbo? do some good homework on your setup and adjust it accordingly. also, join theturboforums.com and post up all the details

95 Crystal White GT
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post #13 of 59 Old 03-31-2009, 02:57 PM Thread Starter
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.81 ar, 3 inch downpipe, 3 inch y pipe to magnaflow mufflers and 2.5 tail pipes.
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post #14 of 59 Old 03-31-2009, 03:33 PM
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Run the car w/ an open downpipe on the next dyno session.

The combo that you have seems well put together, but like everyone else has said something isn't quite right. It should make around 600rwhp or so at 12psi.

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post #15 of 59 Old 03-31-2009, 05:41 PM
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Where is the wastegate located? I had the same problem my gate was too small 35mm but was in a bad spot causing inaccurate boost. I put on a 44mm and moved it to the collector and it fixed it.
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post #16 of 59 Old 03-31-2009, 06:03 PM
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Could the cam be affecting the timing, which would possibly cause eratic exhaust pressure causing the turbo to spool eratic? Just throwing that out there. If you changed from a supercharger with negative results, my theory kinda makes sense. The supercharger dont need exhaust pressure to run. I'm thinking the cam or way it was installed. I'm not an engine builder by any means, just my .02

Stock block, GT40 heads, Explorer intake, 67mm, 10lbs, 431HP 497TQ on 110 octane. 12.01 @ 123
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post #17 of 59 Old 03-31-2009, 06:20 PM
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boost leak test?

Dont forget you can have a good size boost leak and still show 12psi (or whatever you run) on the gauge. The only way to know for sure is to do a boost leak test. Take off the intake to the turbo, but leave the coupler on. Then fab up a pvc coupler and cap, drill a compressor fitting into it, and pressurize the sytem using your air compressor. With the car off of course. You should pressurize a few pounds past your regular boost level. Listen for leaks, and use a soapy water spray bottle to find leaks, then fix them. If you dont have leaks it should leak down to zero in about 60 seconds depending on your TB seal.
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post #18 of 59 Old 03-31-2009, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jturmanator View Post
Could the cam be affecting the timing, which would possibly cause eratic exhaust pressure causing the turbo to spool eratic? Just throwing that out there. If you changed from a supercharger with negative results, my theory kinda makes sense. The supercharger dont need exhaust pressure to run. I'm thinking the cam or way it was installed. I'm not an engine builder by any means, just my .02
+1 i dont see how a t76 at 12 psi could net such low hp even with terrible back pressure, there are plenty of people with .81 ar on the turbine with a 3 inch dp making way more hp with similar setups. I would say guess cam, timing, or running on 7 cyclinders or something. Hell I made 500 rwhp with a P1-SC at 8.5 psi on my 347. As mentioned above, I would think youd be hitting close to 600rwhp with that combo.

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post #19 of 59 Old 03-31-2009, 08:25 PM Thread Starter
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heres the dyno sheets, the first two is the boost curve with the ysi, same choppy boost curve, which makes me think its not a wg issue, im assuming the wg is only trying to do what the engines wacky signal is telling it to do.

YSI

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post #20 of 59 Old 03-31-2009, 08:27 PM Thread Starter
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here are the turbo ones


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post #21 of 59 Old 03-31-2009, 10:18 PM
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Boy that is funky!

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post #22 of 59 Old 04-01-2009, 03:15 AM
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It's not unusual that a 76mm turbo might make 12psi on a 44mm gate with a 5psig spring. The gate can only bypass so much exhaust. You've got a big motor and a big turbo, chances are the gate is working fine and can only get the boost down to 12psig. If you went to a 60mm gate you can get the boost down lower. You'd be going from a 5.5 sq in hole to a 7.5 sq in hole. That's a pretty big difference.

Your B451 is fine for the turbo. It's a good size cam with a 112LSA. I know a guy who made 660RWHP with an E303 in a 306 with a 76mm p trim at 15psig. The cam is almost certainly not the problem. The ramp rates are probably a little different, but I would be willing to bet the B451 is more boost friendly than the E303.

Does the car run through the RPMs smooth on the dyno or is it rough?

Does the tuning software allow you to look at the VE tables on the ECU? If so, what does the VE table look like?

Where is the transducer/sensor for the MAP reference on the dyno? Is this the same MAP signal going to the ECU? If no, where is the MAP sensor for the ECU located?

If I had to take a stab at this I'd say you've got an electrical issue. If the same MAP sensor populating the data for the dyno is the same sensor feeding the ECU that would certainly explain the poor power output. I would start by replacing that sensor or chasing the wiring to see if it's loose at some connector or coming in contact with ground at the +5Vdc ref or the 0-5Vdc signal.

The others are right, at 12psig you should be making 600RWHP, or thereabouts. Furthermore, your MAP curve should not look like the business end of a wood saw.

I just noticed something noteworthy. Your power and torque curves are very smooth, especially considering the MAP curve. Does the dyno chart have a ton of smoothing added to create that effect? Also, the power starts to ramp after 5200 RPM. That's unusual as well. I would expect to see the power ramp up at 3200 to 3400 and carry until the valvetrain starts to sputter out.

I'd love to see your VE table. Who's tuning the car?

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post #23 of 59 Old 04-01-2009, 08:05 AM
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Looking at those dyno sheets I would say the input for the map sensor is out to lunch. The sheet with the Ysi on it has what you called "erratic" boost... Superchargers don't work like that. That has to be the analog on the dyno.

The next thing you stated is you have timing at 12 degrees from 4-6k. Peak torque is derived from peak cylinder pressure... an engine will not sustain the same timing at peak torque as it will at 6k. You are not going to be able to leave 19 degrees in it at 4k, it just won't live. The engine needs to be fat and soft at peak torque and you can lean on it as engine speed increases.

All of your dyno numbers are low... Lets find out how much fuel your using to see if it's going to lead us in a direction. Now Harry made mention of the VE table and we are not that lucky to have one on this ECM. If you did you could "see" how the engine run through it and maybe gain some knowledge. What we can do is put a multi meter/scope on an injector lead and get an idea of how much fuel it's using. You can back a PW number out to find HP, it's just math.

Put a timing light on it and see what the timing is doing on the dyno.

Is it an on center housing?

Ysi's on 331ci engines make about a hundred more than you made. Whats the common denominator here?

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post #24 of 59 Old 04-01-2009, 12:24 PM Thread Starter
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ill pass that electrical info onto my tuner thanks,.pardon my ignorance, but this isnt a stand alone ecu, its the stock computer with an add on chip, so the engine has a bap sensor not a map. and that boost graph is taken from the dynos vaccum line that is hooked up to my manifold, so that boost curve is what my manifold is seeing. i know the problem isnt my wg/ysi/ or turbo.the car pulls smooth without any breaking up, so i assumed the boost curve is like that due to boost being bled off by the valvtrain,
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post #25 of 59 Old 04-01-2009, 06:17 PM
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Did you unplug the connector to the BAP?

1986 Mustang GT
306 E303, TEA 185 TW, Quicktime Turbo 67mm, Redneck C4 15lbs boost
525hp/626tq
*Sold drivetrain - Rolling Chassis may be available*
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post #26 of 59 Old 04-01-2009, 07:02 PM Thread Starter
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no i havnt
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post #27 of 59 Old 04-02-2009, 02:44 AM
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You said compression was 120 that would be OK but also that leakdown was 20% I hope that was a misprint because that would be junk and you need to tighten that up to 2% before any serious improvements will happen
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post #28 of 59 Old 04-02-2009, 07:37 AM
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Im NO expert by any means but 20 % leakdown is way too much !!!

Your HP is about 20% or more low on both the YSI and the turbo so that tells me it would be low on the bottle or N/A. something is wrong somewhere, and leakdown being that high I would start there.

also I dd notice your on a dynapak dyno, NOT sure of the diff but some read different then others... but not that big of a difference.


I dont see how its possible to spike and drop so much boost so many times and have the power curve so smooth, I know if I droped 2psi and picked it back up anywhere from 3k up you could FEEL it.. what does your vac/boost gauge look like ?? all over the place too??

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post #29 of 59 Old 04-02-2009, 12:34 PM Thread Starter
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i dont think the dynapacks the issue, all the other cars ive seen on it spin out the amount of power they should, ive had 2 other cars on that same dyno as well.the guage does flutter but its not as fast as the dynos boost looger to show how much it really does spike.i was told 20% was normal on forced induction motors,on leakdown they didnt hear anything in the intake, some in the crankcase,and going to check the exhaust side tonight,the car doesnt push out the dipstick or pcv though , i guess if its all coming past the exhaust valve that could be part of the issue?

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post #30 of 59 Old 04-02-2009, 03:35 PM
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Check the valve springs, I didnt read every post as some are gonna send you on a goose chase that will leave you with no results. I'd stop looking at the turbo or the wastegate right now. 331 is not to much for a 44mm wastegate and is on the smaller side, at that exhaust flow at 3,000 rpm the 44 should have absolutely no trouble maintaining 8 psi, change to a lighter spring if need be.

But again, check the springs and look at the cam, I dont have the specs on that cam nor do I feel the grind is the issue, but check to see where it was installed and consult anderson to see if it's possibly hurting your combo. But again check the springs, and see where there are. Had very similar issue with a friends car and it ended up having terribly weak valve springs. Check the basic #### first, putting a power adder on a sick motor usually only makes things worse.
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post #31 of 59 Old 04-02-2009, 03:51 PM
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What's the scale on the right side of the graph?
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post #32 of 59 Old 04-02-2009, 05:56 PM
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Here is a checklist for you. I have read some of this but not all.

1 Make sure you are checking boost after the TB.
2 Make sure top dead center on #1 is 0 on the balancer.
3 Make sure there is no drag on the turbo. If it is touching down on boost it will be a dog and not show itself right away.
4 Make sure full throttle is full throttle. It took forever for us to find that out on a car once.
5 20% leakeage is no worry. It is not great, but no worry. I have seen 2000 hp engines lose only 150 hp with over 85 on each hole.
Good luck and pm me if you want.
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post #33 of 59 Old 04-02-2009, 10:46 PM
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I agree with some of the guys up there, that 20% seems alil high. with it idleing pull the pcv line off and see if its puffing alot of smoke like a train out of it, if its that bad at idle think of it at 12 psi, just a thought

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post #34 of 59 Old 04-03-2009, 12:24 AM Thread Starter
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thanks guys,im pulling the cam out tommorow to check to see if what is supposed to be in there really is what its supposed to be, and if its not a defect, say some chance in hell its not ground right.question about the valve springs, if they are the issue wouldnt the power drop off suddenly? renfro ill check the balancer tommorow, ive done the rest on that list.
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post #35 of 59 Old 04-03-2009, 12:44 AM
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boost,n/a,or spray..shouldnt matter...20% leakdown is crap

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