How do some guys run untuned? - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
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post #1 of 37 Old 03-31-2008, 06:15 PM Thread Starter
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How do some guys run untuned?

My car is together but I have to wait a week or so until it can get tuned. In the meantime I still have to work out bugs that require me to drive the car. I've been tooling it around the neighborhood but it drives like utter crap - pops, shakes, stumbles, etc... unless you find a sweet spot.

Then I read how guys are locking their timing and running stock PCM's untuned - some in the low 10's but I can't drive around my neighborhood?

I don't have the time to sit and do nothing to the car waiting for it to be tuned but, again, I have to drive it to find some of the issues i'm looking for.

Is it because i'm running an SCT meter? It's calibrated to my 48lb injectors and there's an SCT flip chip in the car with like 4 base tunes to get the car running but every one that i've tried does roughly the same thing.

I need to know if the bucking, stumbling, pops and shaking are tune based or is there something wrong that I need to address before taking it for the tune?

SCT BA2800
42# injectors
SCT flip chip w/ few base tunes to get the car running
3924 plugs gapped at 28
MSD wires, Cap, Rotor, Coil
67mm turbo
Stock cam
TW heads
70mm TB

It seems to idle just fine, will rev freely but as soon as you drive it is when the issues occur. Light throttle roughly 2000 rpms from a stop you have to pedal it.


Any thoughts? Tune based or is it something else that needs fixed?


1986 Mustang GT
306 E303, TEA 185 TW, Quicktime Turbo 67mm, Redneck C4 15lbs boost
525hp/626tq
*Sold drivetrain - Rolling Chassis may be available*

Last edited by ratedz; 03-31-2008 at 06:21 PM.
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post #2 of 37 Old 04-01-2008, 10:18 AM
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what does your wideband read when the problem occurs?


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post #3 of 37 Old 04-01-2008, 01:08 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 93gtman View Post
what does your wideband read when the problem occurs?
No wideband on the car. I just need it running enough to go around a block or 2 to diagnose potential drivetrain issues.

I can't figure out if it's running this way because there's only a base tune or if there's something wrong in the ignition system. It almost feels like it's missing 2 cylinders.

Imagine sitting at a stoplight in your daily driver, light turns green and you start to go (normal driving) then the car falls on it's face in the middle of the intersection sputtering and popping, almost backfiring - that's what's happening. Really seems like a plug wire is off or crossed, but there isn't.

1986 Mustang GT
306 E303, TEA 185 TW, Quicktime Turbo 67mm, Redneck C4 15lbs boost
525hp/626tq
*Sold drivetrain - Rolling Chassis may be available*
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post #4 of 37 Old 04-01-2008, 01:29 PM
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it might be a bad plug wire in the dark check for arcing wires...you should be using msd/jba/or motor sport 9mm wires with heat shields on them beause the down pipe and headers get very hot even if they are coated or wraped. def check the wires though.
What plugs are you using are they the right heat range ?

You need a wide band to tune i think should should have one so you know what your car is doing at all times..

What timing are you running? if you have it at 10 that might me too low for those heads. you might want to lock it out at 16. but i still think you should get a wideband and a tune.

I dont think that the mass air in injectors will cause that problem they are not that far off .

Now what ignition system are you using?

let me know what you think..

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post #5 of 37 Old 04-01-2008, 01:29 PM
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I'd say its the sct meter

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post #6 of 37 Old 04-01-2008, 01:34 PM Thread Starter
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I'm running the MSD wires - 90% of the car is brand new, all of the ignition, etc.....

The plugs are Autolite 3924 gapped @ 28 and I have the timing locked at 12 degrees, fuel pressure @42psi with the line off.

The SCT meter has been programmed for the 48# injectors and with the timing locked at 12 I've been thinking that maybe I should bump it to 15 degrees and lock it?

Are plugs cold enough? Should I switch to 3923's? I'm running an 8.9lb spring

1986 Mustang GT
306 E303, TEA 185 TW, Quicktime Turbo 67mm, Redneck C4 15lbs boost
525hp/626tq
*Sold drivetrain - Rolling Chassis may be available*
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post #7 of 37 Old 04-01-2008, 01:41 PM Thread Starter
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And as I said before, the car is getting tuned but I have to wait. In the meantime I need to continue working on stuff so that i'm not set back and miss my chassis shop appt - the problems I need to work on requires the car to be driven.

I was under the impression that I should, at the very least, be able to drive the car around the neighborhood. I've seen plenty of posts where guys are running sub 10's with locked timing and untuned PCM's - I just need to tool around LOL

1986 Mustang GT
306 E303, TEA 185 TW, Quicktime Turbo 67mm, Redneck C4 15lbs boost
525hp/626tq
*Sold drivetrain - Rolling Chassis may be available*
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post #8 of 37 Old 04-01-2008, 01:57 PM
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Its the meter....and......your tune. I believe that the people who get away w/ running a stock computer do it this way: You need to run either the stock meter or one setup to fool the stock computer(c&l meter w/ proper sampling tube), lock the timing @ 18-20*, run w/ your fuel pressure line attached(that way if the car sees any boost your fpr will bump the fuel pressure.

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post #9 of 37 Old 04-01-2008, 02:22 PM
 
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I ran a SC at 80PSI fuel pressure W/ FMU. If I turned the Fuel pressure down to even 70 it would do what you are saying, I would try turning it up but thats me.
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post #10 of 37 Old 04-01-2008, 02:28 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by staticstang View Post
Its the meter....and......your tune. I believe that the people who get away w/ running a stock computer do it this way: You need to run either the stock meter or one setup to fool the stock computer(c&l meter w/ proper sampling tube), lock the timing @ 18-20*, run w/ your fuel pressure line attached(that way if the car sees any boost your fpr will bump the fuel pressure.
That's perfect - thanks dude. At least that somewhat tells me that I can move on to something else on the car instead of chasing a gremlin that i'll never catch (tune)

I had narrowed it down to being this type of meter (SCT) because the ''untuned'' guys all run ProM, C&L, etc.... anything BUT SCT meters.


1986 Mustang GT
306 E303, TEA 185 TW, Quicktime Turbo 67mm, Redneck C4 15lbs boost
525hp/626tq
*Sold drivetrain - Rolling Chassis may be available*
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post #11 of 37 Old 04-01-2008, 04:23 PM
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When kurgan set me my SCT BA 2400 with a base tune my car ran like it was stock with 42lb injectors.

Precision 67mm turbo, this and that.
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post #12 of 37 Old 04-01-2008, 04:56 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thewhite88pony View Post
When kurgan set me my SCT BA 2400 with a base tune my car ran like it was stock with 42lb injectors.
Must be nice

1986 Mustang GT
306 E303, TEA 185 TW, Quicktime Turbo 67mm, Redneck C4 15lbs boost
525hp/626tq
*Sold drivetrain - Rolling Chassis may be available*
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post #13 of 37 Old 04-01-2008, 10:42 PM
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The tune in your chip could be a little off. Your Sct meter is not tuned for the injectors that tune is in the chip.

Also make sure your TPS is set right and your IAC is working right. There should be no need to lock out your timing with the Chip in the car.

You can try to add more time and seeing how the car runs just don't bring it into boost.

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post #14 of 37 Old 04-01-2008, 10:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratedz View Post
Must be nice
BUT I dont THINK he had to lock his timing with the chip. who ever did the tune tell you to run locked timing with it?? 12* is way low even for locked timing.

IF your not going to get into boost or get on it hard you should be able to run stock timing UN locked and see if that clears up the issue.

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post #15 of 37 Old 04-01-2008, 11:25 PM
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I thought the calibration for the injectors was in the MAF itself ??

I am running a Pro-m calibrated for 36lb injectors with a stock computer timing locked at 18 and 45lbs of fuel pressure on my stock 91 couple with Twin 50trim t3/t4's right now until i can get the car to someone to put in a base tune on the PMS
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post #16 of 37 Old 04-01-2008, 11:33 PM Thread Starter
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My SCT flip chip has a few ''base'' programs loaded on it by my buddy who tunes at his dyno shop but I think the tunes that are on it are just to get it running. I know the chip/meter is calibrated to my injectors but I have no idea what the timing or fuel curve is. I do know that it's fat and conservative - again, just to get the car running. But, I was under the impression that I would still be able to drive it around normal without breaking up the way it is.

I could be wrong tho, I don't tune these cars.

The car is getting tuned this weekend but my problem is that I don't want to take the car up there only to find out that the breaking up/sputtering, etc... is being caused by another issue that I should fix before going...

1986 Mustang GT
306 E303, TEA 185 TW, Quicktime Turbo 67mm, Redneck C4 15lbs boost
525hp/626tq
*Sold drivetrain - Rolling Chassis may be available*
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post #17 of 37 Old 04-01-2008, 11:34 PM Thread Starter
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And I locked the timing just trying stuff out, I figured it can't hurt if I keep it low and if anything I may be able to get the car to respond so that I can drive it casually around the area.

The IAC is working, I have not checked the TPS - thanks!

1986 Mustang GT
306 E303, TEA 185 TW, Quicktime Turbo 67mm, Redneck C4 15lbs boost
525hp/626tq
*Sold drivetrain - Rolling Chassis may be available*
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post #18 of 37 Old 04-02-2008, 01:01 AM
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this is the issue i have with running a sct meter. they can take alot of adjusting on our cars and its tough to make a base mail order tune work right off at the bat just so you can drive it.

you honestly can't really do anything with your do see if there are any issues till its tuned. you can try borrowing a c&l cal'd for your injectors just to see it there are any issues till you get it tuned with your meter.

be warned also, a meter cal'd for your injectors may not even run good as every car is different. i sold my hellion kit to a friend with a pmas protube cal'd for 42's. it idled very good on my car. on his car it barely idled and barely ran. i had to make alot of adjustment to get that perfect with sct software. now he's very happy after i tuned it and has better driveability now then he had with his old h/c/i combo.

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post #19 of 37 Old 04-02-2008, 01:11 AM
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Some people just get lucky with their calibration for the maf and the injectors. You would be doing the right thing by waiting to get it tuned!

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post #20 of 37 Old 04-02-2008, 02:50 AM
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i would say tune. just make sure you run good gas . 110 in mine before tune just to be safe. i also needed to work out a few bugs before tune and my driveabilty was crap. i dont have o2 sensors or emog/egr though. good luck.
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post #21 of 37 Old 04-02-2008, 05:34 PM
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You need to get your idle and stuff figured out..

I would say pull the chip, set your timing to 10(with the spout out) and then put the spout in.

Lower your fuel pressure a bit to say 38 w/ the vacuum off, and plug the vacuum in..

Let the stock computer handle the tune and get rid of your chip until you can get a tuner on the case... It sounds like the Meter that is calibrated for your injectors is fighting with the chip..

IF the chip thinks your meter isnt calibrated, but your meter is calibrated then they are gonna clash.

I think you need to let the stock computer handle the tune until you get to a dyno..

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post #22 of 37 Old 04-02-2008, 06:19 PM
 
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i had a similar problem when first put mine together and found after driving for 10mins (letting it warm up) it went away and after fitting new (correct) plugs it fixed it
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post #23 of 37 Old 04-02-2008, 06:25 PM
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I would say get in touch with [email protected] if you want all your problems to go away!

Precision 67mm turbo, this and that.
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post #24 of 37 Old 04-03-2008, 01:05 AM
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he can't, he's got an sct meter that is not calibrated to any injectors. the chip takes care of that.

as long as your car was running good before you put the turbo setup and its installed properly your tuner will be able to get it setup. when you try to throw a turbo on garbage is when you will have problems. since you don't have a meter cal'd for the inj. park it till it gets tuned and you blow it up.

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You need to get your idle and stuff figured out..

I would say pull the chip, set your timing to 10(with the spout out) and then put the spout in.

Lower your fuel pressure a bit to say 38 w/ the vacuum off, and plug the vacuum in..

Let the stock computer handle the tune and get rid of your chip until you can get a tuner on the case... It sounds like the Meter that is calibrated for your injectors is fighting with the chip..

IF the chip thinks your meter isnt calibrated, but your meter is calibrated then they are gonna clash.

I think you need to let the stock computer handle the tune until you get to a dyno..

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post #25 of 37 Old 04-03-2008, 09:38 AM Thread Starter
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he can't, he's got an sct meter that is not calibrated to any injectors. the chip takes care of that.

as long as your car was running good before you put the turbo setup and its installed properly your tuner will be able to get it setup. when you try to throw a turbo on garbage is when you will have problems. since you don't have a meter cal'd for the inj. park it till it gets tuned and you blow it up.
The meter is calibrated for my injectors - my buddy owns the dyno shop that sponsors the car. It's getting tuned this weekend barring no further issues so I should be good to go. My biggest worry was that I didn't want to take the car to him for the tune until I was sure that it's 100% ready. Nothing worse than planning on the tune and then finding out that there's issues that prevent it from being tuned.

Everything is good right now, I had to tear it down Wed night to replace the lifters but I got it back together and running last night. Sat or Sun it gets dropped off.

Thanks for all of the information guys - i'm still learning so it's been very helpful.

My Z28 was so much simpler, fire up the laptop/tunercat and load the mail order tune - good to go

1986 Mustang GT
306 E303, TEA 185 TW, Quicktime Turbo 67mm, Redneck C4 15lbs boost
525hp/626tq
*Sold drivetrain - Rolling Chassis may be available*
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post #26 of 37 Old 04-03-2008, 10:17 AM
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tuned based issue. just real rich at that massair voltage. easy to fix with sct software when he logs your mass air voltage and air fuel.

the sct ba2800 meter is not cal'd to an injector.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ratedz View Post
The meter is calibrated for my injectors - my buddy owns the dyno shop that sponsors the car. It's getting tuned this weekend barring no further issues so I should be good to go. My biggest worry was that I didn't want to take the car to him for the tune until I was sure that it's 100% ready. Nothing worse than planning on the tune and then finding out that there's issues that prevent it from being tuned.

Everything is good right now, I had to tear it down Wed night to replace the lifters but I got it back together and running last night. Sat or Sun it gets dropped off.

Thanks for all of the information guys - i'm still learning so it's been very helpful.

My Z28 was so much simpler, fire up the laptop/tunercat and load the mail order tune - good to go

1982 Ford Fairmont Futura H/C/I, fuel injected and turbocharged [email protected]
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post #27 of 37 Old 04-03-2008, 01:02 PM
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Can you throw a stock maf and injectors on there and run on your stock computer? Of course you can't run any boost but if it is basic driving stuff maybe you could sort that.
Again, my car drove well on both stock injectors/stock maf and 42# injectors and a new version of proM maf.
usually people lock the timing at 18. You could also set it at 5 and put the spout back in.
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post #28 of 37 Old 04-03-2008, 11:16 PM
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the sct ba2800 meter is not cal'd to an injector.[/QUOTE]

Just like he said your meter is not cal'd for the injectors and if your tuner thinks that it is then you need to find a new turner. that meter is a blank meter. I could take your meter right off your car can put it no mine and it will run my 30 with my sct chip.

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post #29 of 37 Old 04-03-2008, 11:19 PM
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http://www.kurganmotorsports.com/

here is where you need to go. He can get you a start up tune that you can drive on to at least test the car for problems

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post #30 of 37 Old 04-03-2008, 11:41 PM
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If your tuner sent you a SCT chip/meter without a base tune, I would absolutely not have him tune your car. Kurgan was able to make my car fully driveable without even trying to make it right. I would see if he could do a mail order or something similar.

Precision 67mm turbo, this and that.
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post #31 of 37 Old 04-04-2008, 02:38 AM
 
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Didn't read all the replies, but popping is a indication of running too lean. Up the fuel pressure or the fueling tables in the computer. Push it too hard when it is lean will destroy your engine.
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post #32 of 37 Old 04-04-2008, 09:05 AM Thread Starter
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So my SCT flip chip that has 4 different ''base'' files burned onto it doesn't hold the maf/injector calibration?

Do I have to take the MAF off and have someone calibrate it separetly or dos the chip in fact hold the calibration?

Maybe you guys missed the part where I stated I have a flip chip with 4 different base tunes on it from my tuner, to get the car started and running?? Or, and this could be the case very easily, I have no idea what i'm talking about lol


The car is up and running great right now, I worked thru the popping and stumbling - it was nothing to do with the base tunes, which was my concern.

Gets tuned this weekend on the dyno

1986 Mustang GT
306 E303, TEA 185 TW, Quicktime Turbo 67mm, Redneck C4 15lbs boost
525hp/626tq
*Sold drivetrain - Rolling Chassis may be available*
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post #33 of 37 Old 04-06-2008, 01:49 PM
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post #34 of 37 Old 04-25-2008, 01:31 PM
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I run a C & L air meter with 42 lb injectors untuned. I am sure that I am leaving some performance behind but so far I have run a [email protected] with a 302 stock long block with a base Hellion kit.
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post #35 of 37 Old 04-25-2008, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunder5.0
I run a C & L air meter with 42 lb injectors untuned. I am sure that I am leaving some performance behind but so far I have run a [email protected] with a 302 stock long block with a base Hellion kit.
how much timing, fuel psi, boost are your running?..

Turbomustang

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