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post #1 of 29 Old 07-12-2005, 08:27 AM Thread Starter
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Pricing of PRP

Has the pricing of the Pro Racer Package gone up? I'm not sure if it went up or if I was entering information about my car incorrectly but I remember the package was around $475 for my car (a few months ago) since I already have a chip and don't need the datalogger. When I tried to price it out yesterday, I came up with $675?

Am I doing it incorrectly or did the price jump up?


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post #2 of 29 Old 07-12-2005, 08:38 AM Thread Starter
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Let me clarify, I'm looking at the upgrade instead of the full package since I already have a chip.

Thanks,
Henry


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post #3 of 29 Old 07-14-2005, 02:51 AM
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I wouldn't waste your time with SCT. Pre 1996 cars dont' have much to benefit from their systems. Best I could do was to get a dealer to make the kit for just software and burner and it priced out just around $600, although the newer cars with flashers can upgrade for half that.

I've been told new products are in the works (minimum 6 months range), however, I feel that no matter how good the program they use is, why bother with $600 to get no datalogging, not much support while 96+ cars are paying less, and getting free dataloggers when you can get a Tweecer RT for less, and have all of the above.

The tweecers seem to be the entry level self tuning solution for the 94-95 cars of choice. I'd love to see competition though.

I'm still in debate, I posted on the SCT forums about this here: http://www.sctflash.com/forum/showthread.php?t=701

However, you can kinda see how interested they were to respond to the topic.

If I go SCT, I know the dealer I want to help me (I've been burned *literally* by a couple of dealers):
Justin at VMP in Florida. He really works for his customers, and has been with the SCT deal since its conception.

I hear nothing but good about SCT, but it seems like its really hard to get their attention unless you have an EEC-V or EEC-VI in your fenderwell/kickpanel. If I could, I'd replace the system with a newer one just so I could take advantage of their products and supposed support.

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post #4 of 29 Old 07-14-2005, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris_Red_V6
I wouldn't waste your time with SCT. Pre 1996 cars dont' have much to benefit from their systems. Best I could do was to get a dealer to make the kit for just software and burner and it priced out just around $600, although the newer cars with flashers can upgrade for half that.
What! I've owned EEC-V and EEC-IV cars. I've had EECT and I now have a the PRP package. There is no comparison and it's defintely not a waste of time. Yes, the EEC-V has more capability with datalogging, but saying that makes SCT worthless on pre OBD-II cars is like saying tires are useless on a car. You still have more tuning capability than any other EEC-IV product on the market. And the lurning curve is not nearly as much as the other "DIY-tuning" systems on the market.

The EEC-IV will be a dying art as time goes on, but saying there is no support for EEC-IV users is incorrect.

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post #5 of 29 Old 07-14-2005, 06:48 AM
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obviously there's support for EEC-IV, I just mean its lackluster. I've never been able to get a straight answer out of them, and so far the only dealer I've been impressed with I really havent done any business with.

I think my comparisons from the SCT to the Tweecer are valid. I bet that the scT software is better, however, the tweecer has been well established, and when you break it down, you can look at it like this:

$550 Tweaker RT new + $400 wideband = Tuning Solution

$675 PRP Upgrade + $400 wideband + $400 EEC-IV Datalogger = Tuning Solution

Neither look nice on paper, and that doesn't include any books or information that is relevant to the learning curve. However, after all my studies, they practically access the same variables, alter the same tables.

Reading from the communities, there are plenty of communities out there for the tweecer, I go to the horse's mouth for SCt asking someone to sell me on the product, and I get 52 views, 0 replies. I can make one post on any given mustang forum asking about a tweecer, and it will be a two page thread in a week if not less.

I'm not slamming SCT, I'm just saying for those of us with the older processor, there's more competition.

When you are dealing with the newer processors, there is NO competition for SCT, they can do more than anyone else, and have some of the best features to $ value. I just can't say the same with a straight face for the older stuff.

Either way, as far as learnign curve goes, SCT has a $75 book, while tailored for their product, it will definately shorten the learning curve for any self based tuner.

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post #6 of 29 Old 07-14-2005, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by SteveC
What! I've owned EEC-V and EEC-IV cars. I've had EECT and I now have a the PRP package.
I've owned chips on both EEC-V, and EEC-IV too, I don't know if you remember or not.

Also, the EEC-T is a nightmare of a learning curve, thus my leaving it out.

Probably should have edited, but I'm too tired, haha.

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post #7 of 29 Old 07-14-2005, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris_Red_V6
obviously there's support for EEC-IV, I just mean its lackluster. I've never been able to get a straight answer out of them, and so far the only dealer I've been impressed with I really havent done any business with.

I think my comparisons from the SCT to the Tweecer are valid. I bet that the scT software is better, however, the tweecer has been well established, and when you break it down, you can look at it like this:

$550 Tweaker RT new + $400 wideband = Tuning Solution

$675 PRP Upgrade + $400 wideband + $400 EEC-IV Datalogger = Tuning Solution

Neither look nice on paper, and that doesn't include any books or information that is relevant to the learning curve. However, after all my studies, they practically access the same variables, alter the same tables.

Reading from the communities, there are plenty of communities out there for the tweecer, I go to the horse's mouth for SCt asking someone to sell me on the product, and I get 52 views, 0 replies. I can make one post on any given mustang forum asking about a tweecer, and it will be a two page thread in a week if not less.

I'm not slamming SCT, I'm just saying for those of us with the older processor, there's more competition.

When you are dealing with the newer processors, there is NO competition for SCT, they can do more than anyone else, and have some of the best features to $ value. I just can't say the same with a straight face for the older stuff.

Either way, as far as learnign curve goes, SCT has a $75 book, while tailored for their product, it will definately shorten the learning curve for any self based tuner.
I guess it comes down to who you work with. SCT has thousands upon thousands of base tunes for EEC-IV cars.

There are resources for Tweecer, but many of those are people guessing at it just like every other Joe out there. Granted some are very successful using it- I don't deny that. And I look at it in the light that if I'm to the point I need to datalog, then it's time for a professional tune. Nothing surpasses the knowledge of a great tuner. And I guess I'm picky... If I'm going to spend the money on performance parts, then shelling out a couple hundred more for an expert should be the natural thing to do. People drive for years with improperly tuned cars losing 10, 50, 100 HP but will go out and buy a the latest gizmo bolton for $300 bucks to gain a claimed 10hp. Set up the car correctly, and have it consistant.

Tweecer has a cheaper buy in, but the expertise in the SCT products is what I see as important.

Chris, you've been around this enough to know where this was borned out of and what bad tunes and tuners can do. I just feel you are selling it short because you didn't get an answer to a question once upon a time.

I bought the PRP cause I knew enough to be dangerous and can do the small stuff myself. Plus there are several value files that are premade that just have to be loaded in. Once I get this car to the point I want it, then I'll have Jerry tune it. But in the mean time, I use it for the small stuff starting out on this car. You know I'm not afraid to do something radical to a car...

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post #8 of 29 Old 07-14-2005, 03:14 PM
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its not just getting ignored that turned me away, its a bad burn x 2, having to "eval" dealers to get any sort of an answer (well, one of them we know to dissapear regardless). There's a dealer close to me that I hear more and more reasons everyday not to deal with them.

However, like I said, I'm still evaluating my choices. They're good products, I just think one is pricey for what you get, and being able to monitor all the other functions in the car really goes a far way, especially when it comes to making sure sensors are working the way they should.

Offhand, I wonder if we answered this guys question in depth, haha. Also, damnit, if they have 1000's of base tunes, then why doesn't my E303/GT40P/Cobra intake car idle, damnit. It does without the chip in. (I'm not being serious about it, I gave up faith on that particular sct chip after I pulled it at the alabama v6FC, and was over half a second faster in the quarter).

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post #9 of 29 Old 07-14-2005, 05:53 PM
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I'm sorry you had a bad experience, but one tuner doesn't make SCT's capability any different. A chip is only as good as the information you put in it. And many people like to blame a tuner when it's the owner's mismatched components or mechanical issues. You have a Pro-M Bullet- that asking for issues right from the start and no tuner can make a ill-designed MAF work correctly. I'm not saying that is your problem... but that throws a huge red flag to me.

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post #10 of 29 Old 07-14-2005, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveC
I'm sorry you had a bad experience, but one tuner doesn't make SCT's capability any different. A chip is only as good as the information you put in it. And many people like to blame a tuner when it's the owner's mismatched components or mechanical issues. You have a Pro-M Bullet- that asking for issues right from the start and no tuner can make a ill-designed MAF work correctly. I'm not saying that is your problem... but that throws a huge red flag to me.
read: several tuners. Every one of them I've talked to really haven't been cooperative or helpful at the least (with the exception of Justin, when I can't get answers from him, he'll at least let me know he's busy).

The Pro-M helped. I have 2 stock Mafs, and one ProM. The pro-M does richen it up top, however, via wideband logs, does lean out my idle somewhat, which really helps me out.

I've had this combo for 6 months now. 3 tuners have looked at it, and its been to a dyno. Everytime it comes down to EEC calibration.

I've had the injectors removed and cleaned, no leaks, pulls perfect vacuum with no leaks, adjusted and tried many different fuel pressures, there's not a sensor on the car that is older than 4 months.

I'd say the mechanical and support side of the EEC equation is in good hands. Even my T4M0 processor is a 4 month old unit.

Don't get me wrong again, I'm not saying the product is incapable. I'm saying that its not without genuine competition, and appealing competition at that. I think that if the product had some more thought put into capabilities of the product for the EEC-IV cars, it would be much more appealing.

I am just giving my personal opinion. Most of my dealings are with the dealers, who really don't represent SCT as a whole, each one will be different, however, I see a trend that even went as far as the SCT forums, and a couple calls to SCT about the product just left me hanging.

I mean, 6 months ago, they were offering a free raptor with purchase of the PRP. So if you had a chip in a 1996, you'd get a voucher for the free datalogger (which has been noted as the best in the business), and for the same coin, if you had a EEC-IV, then you wouldn't receive the voucher. Just seems slanted if you ask me.

Yeah, this subject is a sore spot with me, especially since when I first looked into this, everyone said, oh yeah, it will have idle issues, but its the easiest combo in the book to tune, everyone has that combo (not literally, but yeah, its 90% ford parts, and the popular ones). Once I started spending money, things just went downhill. The local SCT dealer will dynotune it for $400/hr, roughly 2 hour estimate, but what good is that if the heads, cam, intakes cost me less than that, and its not factoring in the original chip?

I'd love to get a hands on look at the SCT PRP, I've seen the tweecer. I know the SCT includes a lot of info on each table that even the novice could understand, however, its like pulling teeth to get any good info on why I should go that way.


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post #11 of 29 Old 07-14-2005, 06:38 PM
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Have you ever had it chipped with a stock style MAF?

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post #12 of 29 Old 07-14-2005, 07:05 PM
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yup, I switch the maf pretty constantly to try different settings. Wierd I know. I'll probably go back to the stocker for when I get my self tuning solution.


For the sake of the original thread, I think HPLouis isnt going to go wrong either way. SCT is more expensive, especially after you add the manual, however it is undoubtedly the easiest and most powerful. However, you're still out when it comes to datalogging.

The tweecer offers logging, but slightly higher learning curve.

I hope I get swayed one way or another soon so I can get my damn car tuned.

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post #13 of 29 Old 07-14-2005, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris_Red_V6
yup, I switch the maf pretty constantly to try different settings. Wierd I know. I'll probably go back to the stocker for when I get my self tuning solution.

No, no, no... can't do that... don't do that. You need a solid MAF transfer for the EEC. That's elementary.

My point was, was a Ford MAF (your stock MAF or another Ford MAF like a Lightning MAF) used when it was chipped? If not, that was likely your problem.

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post #14 of 29 Old 07-14-2005, 10:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_Red_V6
yup, I switch the maf pretty constantly to try different settings. Wierd I know. I'll probably go back to the stocker for when I get my self tuning solution.


For the sake of the original thread, I think HPLouis isnt going to go wrong either way. SCT is more expensive, especially after you add the manual, however it is undoubtedly the easiest and most powerful. However, you're still out when it comes to datalogging.

The tweecer offers logging, but slightly higher learning curve.

I hope I get swayed one way or another soon so I can get my damn car tuned.
Well, you are pretty far away but at least in the same state (Fla). If you get a tweecer I would be willing to help you with it, I've had it on my car for almost 2 years now. It certainly should be possible to make the car idle and yes, datalogging is a real help with that.
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post #15 of 29 Old 07-14-2005, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by SteveC
No, no, no... can't do that... don't do that. You need a solid MAF transfer for the EEC. That's elementary.

My point was, was a Ford MAF (your stock MAF or another Ford MAF like a Lightning MAF) used when it was chipped? If not, that was likely your problem.
All tunes were based off a Ford maf. I reset the ECU everytime I do a maf change, and go through the rigourus "burn in" test of running it hard after the reset to allow the computer to adapt.

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post #16 of 29 Old 07-15-2005, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris_Red_V6
I reset the ECU everytime I do a maf change, and go through the rigourus "burn in" test of running it hard after the reset to allow the computer to adapt.
That will never allow the EEC to fully adapt to a mismatched MAF. You are believing old myths that some people like to spread around even today.

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post #17 of 29 Old 07-15-2005, 04:48 PM
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what kind of time period are we talking about here, its usually 3 weeks or more between maf changes. I don't get much time to work on the car, so everytime I change something, 2-3 weeks sounds about right. Is that still not enough time for the adaptive nature of the ECU? I can only think of one or two times about 4 months ago where I changed the mafs within a week.

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post #18 of 29 Old 07-15-2005, 05:15 PM
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You aren't grasping what I'm trying to explain to you... the MAF is the eyes of the EEC. If you put blinders on it, you get garbage in, garbage out. For a EEC to adapt properly, you need a proper MAF so the EEC can change efficently and effectively. A EEC will NEVER adapt accurately to a mismatched MAF.

The EEC has a transfer function table that corresponds with the MAF's transfer function. If you put in a MAF with a different transfer, the MAF is now calculating for a different amount of airflow. And different MAF's have different resolutions, so you can be slightly lean at idle and very lean at WOT. Or rich at idle and very, very rich at WOT.

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post #19 of 29 Old 07-15-2005, 05:18 PM
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It depends on what calibration the maf you are using has. If you are trying to compensate for bigger injectors, like 42's, then a meter from ProM calibrated for that will cause trouble in the eec in terms of the eec looking at the wrong load values in the tables. In the case mentioned above what would happen is the eec would see a lower voltage from the maf and assume the engine is at a lower load causing it to look at the low load values in the fuel/spark tables. That would not be best spark/fuel for your motor however.
If you have a chip on the car already and the maf curve is already there for your particular maf then you avoid this problem. Changing maf's with the same "calibration" would work ok and then you would see the eec "adapting" to the new maf due to fuel trims from the 02 sensors. It will still "adapt" to fuel trims as much as possible (25% high or low) with whatever maf you use but it will not "adapt" for incorrect load values from a mismatched maf.
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post #20 of 29 Old 07-15-2005, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by SteveC
You aren't grasping what I'm trying to explain to you... the MAF is the eyes of the EEC. If you put blinders on it, you get garbage in, garbage out. For a EEC to adapt properly, you need a proper MAF so the EEC can change efficently and effectively. A EEC will NEVER adapt accurately to a mismatched MAF.

The EEC has a transfer function table that corresponds with the MAF's transfer function. If you put in a MAF with a different transfer, the MAF is now calculating for a different amount of airflow. And different MAF's have different resolutions, so you can be slightly lean at idle and very lean at WOT. Or rich at idle and very, very rich at WOT.
What I am trying to say are both MAF's are set for a stock setup, there are no changes to the xfer function from any of my tunes, and the two stockers are that, just stock. The Pro-M has been sent to Pro-M back in the day to be adjusted as closely to the 19# setup as posible.

Now you're saying that I'm getting garbage in, is the stock maf that bad? I can understand the statement on the Pro-M's, they're notorious for being too lean down low, picky, and too rich up top, along with being hard to calibrate. However, I'm saying my EEC tune on the chip, or the EEC stock (as it is right now) should be ok with at least the stocker, right?

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post #21 of 29 Old 07-15-2005, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris_Red_V6
What I am trying to say are both MAF's are set for a stock setup
So you are using the original stock MAF for your year car, your motor? Not from another car, year... That's where you run into problems.

Pro-M Bullitts were always notorious for poor calibration... no matter how many times they recalibrated it.

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post #22 of 29 Old 07-15-2005, 11:08 PM
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yeah, the maf that was with the car from day 1. I understand you can't put a maf from a 95 Cobra into a 99+ V6 (well, asides from the connector change).

However, I scored another maf from a wrecked 1994GT with the same computer code.

I do understand calibrations and xfer stuff, that's why I was confused with what you were saying.

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post #23 of 29 Old 07-16-2005, 07:27 AM
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Alright... you made it sound like you are throwing all kinds of different MAF's in to make it run "right"... gotcha.

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post #24 of 29 Old 07-16-2005, 02:48 PM
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on the same page now. I need to make some money on the side haha, so it doesn't matter what the cost is of the tuning equipment.

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post #25 of 29 Old 07-17-2005, 08:30 PM
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Ya'll got my head to hurting.
I'm about to install a S trim on my car and want great drivability. I was gonna get a local shop to do a dyno tune w/ a SCT chip. Its gonna cost about $600 bux. Does this sound like the right thing to do? I'd like to do a self tuner (PMS, twEECer, etc.) but I'm not an expert. I need it to control my timing b/c I won't have a BTM box, control fuel flow b/c of no FMU and other things to give me good a/f ratio and such. I'll be using 42's and a pro m 80mm. I've been running a pro m 75 bullet for years w/ no problems on my h/c/i setup.

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post #26 of 29 Old 07-19-2005, 12:51 PM
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The raptor was included in the EEC-V package, and the EEC-IV package price was lowered to reflect this change in hardware.

I am sorry to hear that your car does not idle as well with a chip in as it does with it out. All of our tuners start with a stock file for the vehicle, and make changes to it. Something in the tune sounds like it needs to be put back to stock, if it idles correctly.

A couple of questions, did you put your timing back to stock as well as set the fuel pressure back to stock?

We don't have a current datalogging chip, so providing the datalogging capability is not something we can do at this time, since we don't have the hardware to support it. It is something that has been requested, and work is in progress on it, as Brian said in the other post.

Ryan
post #27 of 29 Old 07-19-2005, 07:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected]
The raptor was included in the EEC-V package, and the EEC-IV package price was lowered to reflect this change in hardware.

I am sorry to hear that your car does not idle as well with a chip in as it does with it out. All of our tuners start with a stock file for the vehicle, and make changes to it. Something in the tune sounds like it needs to be put back to stock, if it idles correctly.

A couple of questions, did you put your timing back to stock as well as set the fuel pressure back to stock?

We don't have a current datalogging chip, so providing the datalogging capability is not something we can do at this time, since we don't have the hardware to support it. It is something that has been requested, and work is in progress on it, as Brian said in the other post.

Ryan
I do run stock timing now, same issues apply. Fuel pressure was stock, but I now run it 2 lbs less as it seems to stall and surge less.

As far as the SCT package goes, what's a straightforward answer on price for a EEC-IV owner to upgrade to it. I do appreciate someone from the company stepping up and answering in about it, I don't want to come across as someone slamming the company, because its obvious the achievements you guys have made, and the tuning isn't by the company, its the dealers (so it can vary, of course).

I've looked into the tweecer, but I know the software is more powerful and intuitive with the SCT product. However, the only hold back I've had is lack of a straight answer on what it includes and what the price is. Just seems everytime I've inquired, it has been quoted at more than a 96+ owner who gets a raptor (well, back when that was the offering), and much more than those who can use a xcal/xcal2.

I would probably be happy with a good tune on the 4 way chip, but I've just felt that I could probably put a lot more effort into the tune myself than for someone who doesn't own the car and is just looking to get the A/F right. That was my motivation for the PRP product.

EDIT: I see the post made on the SCT forums, and its priced at $549 now. I appreciate the info, that is a bit more competitave, I do hope when a datalogging chip is available that an upgrade is offered to current users.

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2011 GT: Yellow Tri-Blaze, 6MT, 3.73's, all the options sans a glass roof.

Last edited by Chris_Red_V6; 07-19-2005 at 07:16 PM.
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post #28 of 29 Old 07-23-2005, 11:12 PM
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I regularly and successfully tune EEC-IV cars of all types with no datalogging whatsoever. Sometimes with nothing more than voltmeters. But I've done a bunch of them, but it is possible. Experience is obviously very helpful.

BUT.... the real problem with many of these EEC-IV cars is that they are getting very long in tooth, they haven't all had regular top quality maintenance and almost all have been modified. Then throw in the million possible combinations of mods when they are modified troubleshooting your problem via email isn't going to be easy. This all boils down to the tuner in the case of these older cars. IMHO your gripe should be with whoever you paid to tune your car in the past, not the maker of the software tool.

Thanks,

Ed

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post #29 of 29 Old 07-24-2005, 12:35 AM
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gripe with original burner, of course, however, the point of this thread was that for EEC-IV cars, the product offering was not as strong as for other eec versions, and more expensive.

However, SCT did step up and say that new products are in the works, and clarified the price of their products.

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