Moving from N/A 331 to Vortech. First supercharger - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
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post #1 of 47 Old 04-15-2019, 09:55 AM Thread Starter
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Moving from N/A 331 to Vortech. First supercharger

Current setup= 331. AFR 165 heads, systemax intake, comp stroker cam, DSS forged bottem end, stock block. Compression is somewhere around 10.3:1-10.5:1. 30LB injectors, in tank 340LPH pump, 70MM MAS. SCT Chip/dyno tune Tremec TKO 600. Made 388 to the wheels 3 years ago when put together.

I just picked up a used Vortech S trim. I'm thinking I will only be able to get away with like 4-5 pounds of boost...I wanna stay safe, not a track car. Looking for some input from people who know:

1. 60 pound injectors?
2. Do i need a new MAS...or can a tuner just work with my current one once I put bigger injectors in?
3. How do I calculate what pulleys I need? The kit was sold to me as "comes with upgraded 10 rib 10 pound pulleys setup"....I thought boost varied motor to motor based on components?
4. Can i keep this on 93 and be safe...or do i NEED a meth kit? (really dont want one).
5. Can anyone suggest a GOOD/EXPERT tuner near the New Orleans Louisiana area (within several hours) that wont blow my #### up tuning this? My previous tuner for this N/A-nitrous setup has a 56 month wait, and their lead guy i think is no longer there...don't trust the work I have been seeing coming out of there since.

6. Any knowledge anyone wanna drop on me being the first time ever dealing with boost? I am assuming I drop in bigger injectors, bolt the thing up once I determine pulleys...then drag it to a dyno....I missing something?

Thanks Guys.

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post #2 of 47 Old 04-15-2019, 10:13 AM
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The psi rating on any pulley set up is a ball park/average. It will vary depending on engine efficiency. At 4-5 psi of boost you are only looking at 80-100 extra hp or so. And yes, you will need bigger fuel injectors. A boosted engine will always need bigger fuel injectors for a specific HP level compared to N/A. Most fuel injector calculators will give you an idea of size required for crank HP based on N/A or Boosted. A 450 N/A crank HP engine would require a 30 lb/hr injector for an 8 cyl engine. Add boost and the engine now needs a 36 lb/hr injector for the same crank HP. These numbers were assuming 85% duty cycle.
https://www.deatschwerks.com/fuel-ca...tor-calculator


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Best 1/8 mile time 5.339 @ 133.46 mph with a 1.29 60'
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post #3 of 47 Old 04-15-2019, 10:29 AM Thread Starter
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The psi rating on any pulley set up is a ball park/average. It will vary depending on engine efficiency. At 4-5 psi of boost you are only looking at 80-100 extra hp or so. And yes, you will need bigger fuel injectors. A boosted engine will always need bigger fuel injectors for a specific HP level compared to N/A. Most fuel injector calculators will give you an idea of size required for crank HP based on N/A or Boosted. A 450 N/A crank HP engine would require a 30 lb/hr injector for an 8 cyl engine. Add boost and the engine now needs a 36 lb/hr injector for the same crank HP. These numbers were assuming 85% duty cycle.
https://www.deatschwerks.com/fuel-ca...tor-calculator
Thank you.

1. Yep..i knew I need bigger injectors, just looking for how to calculate whether it would be 60, 80, etc. So...looking like 60 is my sweet spot.
2. My boost level was a guess...un-educated....based on my compression, wanting to stay on 93 octane, and not wanting to push the ragged edge...maybe i am WAY off on that guess?
3. So I'm assuming vortech might be ablr to help me take a guess on the pulley size based on my setup? Do you basically just throw it on and see what it makes then change it from there? Seems like a very crude "trial and error" way to guess at it??

4. Most important part...ANYONE with info on a REPUTABLE/EXPERIENCED tuner I can go to...please pass info my way.
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post #4 of 47 Old 04-15-2019, 10:52 AM
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Boost level is not determined by compression ratio. Compression ratio will determine how much cylinder pressure you build. That cylinder pressure will obviously go up for every psi of boost made. Most psi ratings for pulley combo's are based on a stock engine. If the intake/heads/exhaust/camshaft allow for more efficient flow, then you will see less psi on the boost gauge because the boost is not getting stacked up in the head and intake manifold compared to stock. It is not that the engine is getting less air resulting in less boost pressure, it is that the engine is using more of the available air flow from the S/C compared to stock.

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Best 1/4 mile time 8.623 @ 159.82 mph with a 1.34 60' (5.57 1/8th at 128)
Best 1/8 mile time 5.339 @ 133.46 mph with a 1.29 60'
08' Bullitt #4097 N/A 340ish RWHP <<<<<FOR SALE!
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post #5 of 47 Old 04-15-2019, 11:02 AM
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Put genuine deka 80s injector on

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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post #6 of 47 Old 04-15-2019, 11:36 AM Thread Starter
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Calculator shows 46-48.....60 would be overkill.....80 seems WAY high???
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post #7 of 47 Old 04-15-2019, 12:14 PM
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Calculator shows 46-48.....60 would be overkill.....80 seems WAY high???
The point you're missing is that 80's can be easily adjusted/tuned to operate like stock injectors and the car will never know it. You may never need such large injectors but b/c these can be tuned to operate like stock they are used to eliminate the need for larger ones when people make more power later on in life.

I have 160's on mine (I need them) but it idles and drives like stock.


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post #8 of 47 Old 04-15-2019, 03:31 PM Thread Starter
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Gotcha
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post #9 of 47 Old 04-16-2019, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by nv40 View Post
Current setup= 331. AFR 165 heads, systemax intake, comp stroker cam, DSS forged bottem end, stock block. Compression is somewhere around 10.3:1-10.5:1. 30LB injectors, in tank 340LPH pump, 70MM MAS. SCT Chip/dyno tune Tremec TKO 600. Made 388 to the wheels 3 years ago when put together.

I just picked up a used Vortech S trim. I'm thinking I will only be able to get away with like 4-5 pounds of boost...I wanna stay safe, not a track car. Looking for some input from people who know:

1. 60 pound injectors? Siemens Deka 80's (easy to tune on a 302/331)


2. Do i need a new MAS...or can a tuner just work with my current one once I put bigger injectors in?
You'll likely need a bigger maf as your probably close to pegging what you have I would imagine.
3. How do I calculate what pulleys I need? The kit was sold to me as "comes with upgraded 10 rib 10 pound pulleys setup"....I thought boost varied motor to motor based on components? The only thing you can calculate off of the crank and blower pulley diameters is the impeller rpm. Actual PSI observed is a live testing thing.

4. Can i keep this on 93 and be safe...or do i NEED a meth kit? (really dont want one). With 5-6 pounds you won't NEED meth, however I doubt you'll stay at that boost level for long and therefore Meth would be smart.
5. Can anyone suggest a GOOD/EXPERT tuner near the New Orleans Louisiana area (within several hours) that wont blow my #### up tuning this? My previous tuner for this N/A-nitrous setup has a 56 month wait, and their lead guy i think is no longer there...don't trust the work I have been seeing coming out of there since. Decipha at EFIdynotuning is in New Orleans and I've heard nothing but good things.

6. Any knowledge anyone wanna drop on me being the first time ever dealing with boost? I am assuming I drop in bigger injectors, bolt the thing up once I determine pulleys...then drag it to a dyno....I missing something? Since your not tuning yourself, that pretty much sums it up. You've got the fuel covered with the 340 pump, you'll want to consider going one step colder plugs and tighten gap slightly.

Thanks Guys.
thanks

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post #10 of 47 Old 04-16-2019, 09:46 AM Thread Starter
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Man....I can not say thank you enough. That is EXACTLY the help I was looking for to point me in the right direction. I'm going to look into that dyno shop as well. Thanks a lot.

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post #11 of 47 Old 04-17-2019, 09:39 AM Thread Starter
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Follow up q
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post #12 of 47 Old 04-17-2019, 09:44 AM Thread Starter
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Follow up questions if I can.

I am waiting on a call back from EFIdynotuning. But I was also told about JMS performance. I had a phone consult with them and this is basically what i was told:

1. Go 60lb injectors. You can go 80 if they are the same price, but harder to tune for streetability
2. get a Pro-M meter for blown applications, calibrated for the injector size you buy, and get the optional "30 point calibration sheet"
3. "the fuel lines in foxbody are small. you need to upgrade the fuel rails, and even with he 340 in tank pump..we suggest adding a 340 in-line pump on top of that" what???? really??
4. 8 PSI is probably your max without meth, E85. expect 500+ to the wheels and you are in block destruction territory and would need to be very careful of getting "bad gas" at a gas station...carry a can of octane boost around.

Thoughts on this conversation?
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post #13 of 47 Old 04-17-2019, 12:51 PM
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Decide on a tuner and follow their suggestions for maf and injectors.
I would expect a single 340L in tank pump to be enough as long as it has upgraded wiring to it.
You are in that area where lines and rails might need to be replaced although I would think you would be fine with the stock stuff.
There is no magic number for the stock block. Some last with 500+ rwhp some crack with much less. High rpms and poor tunes are bad for the stock block

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post #14 of 47 Old 04-17-2019, 01:23 PM Thread Starter
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Decide on a tuner and follow their suggestions for maf and injectors.
I would expect a single 340L in tank pump to be enough as long as it has upgraded wiring to it.
You are in that area where lines and rails might need to be replaced although I would think you would be fine with the stock stuff.
There is no magic number for the stock block. Some last with 500+ rwhp some crack with much less. High rpms and poor tunes are bad for the stock block
Yep..the block stuff I pretty much knew. It's like flipping a coin. I'll probably upgrade the fuel rails to be safe...but I feel like a second pump is just overkill. What do you mean upgraded wiring? It is an aeromotive in-tank that was designed to install just like the factory pump.

The injectors and Meter I'll go with what they tell me to do.

So it all boils down to these Fuel supply questions at this point then. Everything I am ready shows/says this pump should be fine as is??

Oh...opinions on used vs new injectors? Sounds like the meter I NEED to get brand new cause I need it calibrated right and to get that sheet from them.
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post #15 of 47 Old 04-18-2019, 07:14 AM
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you will be fine with 80 injectors i tune a foxbody with 80s with a pms with si trim blower works and runs like stock thu a pms and i also tune my 94 cobra with 95# injectors with pms with stock engine, and ysi blower runs like stock
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post #16 of 47 Old 04-18-2019, 07:24 AM
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Well...the second you said E85 everything changes.

340...would MAYBE get there on pump gas, i have a similar build, going E85, I'm going with a 525 hellcat pump, then i can use BAP if i need more headroom.

They just don't want you to show up, and have to cut your tune short because not enough fuel.
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post #17 of 47 Old 04-18-2019, 11:05 AM Thread Starter
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Well...the second you said E85 everything changes.

340...would MAYBE get there on pump gas, i have a similar build, going E85, I'm going with a 525 hellcat pump, then i can use BAP if i need more headroom.

They just don't want you to show up, and have to cut your tune short because not enough fuel.
I will NOT be going E85....pump gas only.

Looks like i need to upgrade the stock fuel rails, and I seeing people talking about upgrading the wiring or the 340 doesnt work to full potential????
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post #18 of 47 Old 04-21-2019, 09:52 AM
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60lb injectors are plenty for your set up but new or used injectors I would have them flowed the extra $80-$100 well worth the cost.
Your stock wiring for the fuel pump will work with a 340 in tank pump no problem and don't need an inline pump with a 340 in tank pump.
Stock fuel lines and rails will work with 93 octane 60lb injectors and 340 pump with 4-5 lbs of boost.
A mass air meter calibrated to 42lb or up up to 60lb will work but any calibration will need to be tuned with big injectors. I would suggest towing the car to be tuned after bigger injectors are installed don't try to drive without tuning.
Change to 2 steps colder than stock spark plugs and gap them to .028
Trying to get to 4-5lbs of boost with a vortech v-1/v-2 will require a 3.8" to 4" upper pulley and a 6.87" lower pulley and that also depends on the rpm of the engine but usually an efi sbf street car power falls off around 6000 rpm.
Don't need a water methanol kit
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post #19 of 47 Old 04-21-2019, 10:03 AM
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60lb injectors are plenty for your set up but new or used injectors I would have them flowed the extra $80-$100 well worth the cost.
Your stock wiring for the fuel pump will work with a 340 in tank pump no problem and don't need an inline pump with a 340 in tank pump.
Stock fuel lines and rails will work with 93 octane 60lb injectors and 340 pump with 4-5 lbs of boost.
A mass air meter calibrated to 42lb or up up to 60lb will work but any calibration will need to be tuned with big injectors. I would suggest towing the car to be tuned after bigger injectors are installed don't try to drive without tuning.
Change to 2 steps colder than stock spark plugs and gap them to .028
Trying to get to 4-5lbs of boost with a vortech v-1/v-2 will require a 3.8" to 4" upper pulley and a 6.87" lower pulley and that also depends on the rpm of the engine but usually an efi sbf street car power falls off around 6000 rpm.
Don't need a water methanol kit
Pretty spot on here. Very similar to an old set up of mine. But, IMO, buy Brand new Siemens Deka or Holley 60’s. You’re also not going to stay at 4-5 lbs of boost. Not gonna happen. Maybe think about bigger fuel lines and rails so you’re ready for more boost.

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post #20 of 47 Old 04-21-2019, 11:14 PM
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Go to efidynotuning. Mike will set you up well. You can go to there web page and read everything he suggest and why.

The maf cal'd for any inj. is B.S. Buy a maf based on your hp goals. They will send you a 30 point maf curve. Your tuner will need this info. You will need a fuel reg. that is 1 to 1.
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post #21 of 47 Old 04-22-2019, 10:28 AM Thread Starter
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Pretty spot on here. Very similar to an old set up of mine. But, IMO, buy Brand new Siemens Deka or Holley 60ís. Youíre also not going to stay at 4-5 lbs of boost. Not gonna happen. Maybe think about bigger fuel lines and rails so youíre ready for more boost.
1. I will NOT go more boost until/unless I build a 351 based motor. I'm running a stock block on this 331 so I'm already flirting with danger.
2. The first tuner I called...the one that tuned this N/A 331 5 years ago...told me 8PSI is my limit to stay on 93 octane...and he is thinking 500+ RWHP based on this motor making 381 RWHP as it sits now.

Thanks for the advice. I think I will add aftermarket rails to be extra safe at least for now....unless aftermarket rails combined with stock fuel lines is pointless?
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post #22 of 47 Old 04-22-2019, 10:33 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ilusivefox View Post
60lb injectors are plenty for your set up but new or used injectors I would have them flowed the extra $80-$100 well worth the cost.
Your stock wiring for the fuel pump will work with a 340 in tank pump no problem and don't need an inline pump with a 340 in tank pump.
Stock fuel lines and rails will work with 93 octane 60lb injectors and 340 pump with 4-5 lbs of boost.
A mass air meter calibrated to 42lb or up up to 60lb will work but any calibration will need to be tuned with big injectors. I would suggest towing the car to be tuned after bigger injectors are installed don't try to drive without tuning.
Change to 2 steps colder than stock spark plugs and gap them to .028
Trying to get to 4-5lbs of boost with a vortech v-1/v-2 will require a 3.8" to 4" upper pulley and a 6.87" lower pulley and that also depends on the rpm of the engine but usually an efi sbf street car power falls off around 6000 rpm.
Don't need a water methanol kit
Awesome info.
Sounds like I just need to go brand new on the Injectors and Meter to be safe.

I was also thinking 4-5LB originally...but my first tuner is telling me I can get away with 8LB on 93. I might try and play it safe and shoot for the 4-5LB for the hell of it. SHould still be a nice HP boost even on 4-5.

Thanks a lot for the info.

Oh...I planned to ship my chip and get a "startup tune", so I would not be driving around or anything on these parts until I at least have that tune to get me on a trailer to get to a dyno.
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post #23 of 47 Old 04-22-2019, 10:42 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by wywindsor View Post
Go to efidynotuning. Mike will set you up well. You can go to there web page and read everything he suggest and why.

The maf cal'd for any inj. is B.S. Buy a maf based on your hp goals. They will send you a 30 point maf curve. Your tuner will need this info. You will need a fuel reg. that is 1 to 1.
I tried contacting them and have been having trouble reaching anyone.

I'm currently working with my original tuner....JMS....but efidynotuning is much closer to me. I just wasnt familiar with them, but you are the second person to suggest them.
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post #24 of 47 Old 04-23-2019, 05:01 PM Thread Starter
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Go to efidynotuning. Mike will set you up well. You can go to there web page and read everything he suggest and why.

The maf cal'd for any inj. is B.S. Buy a maf based on your hp goals. They will send you a 30 point maf curve. Your tuner will need this info. You will need a fuel reg. that is 1 to 1.
You nailed it. He just spent 40 minutes talking to me on the phone going over everything and was as nice as can be. He can sell me the 60lb injectors and a Ford lightning mass air (saves money over the pro-m and he said works the same if you are getting a tune anyway) and do the dyno tuning all in one package.

Thanks man...glad you sent me his way.
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post #26 of 47 Old 04-24-2019, 03:03 AM
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Get a Pro-M EFI and fire your tuner... I canít believe people still pay tuners nowadays, read up over in the forum, make all the changes you want and youíll never need a start up tune or anyone to tune anything, PERIOD! System will pay for itself eventually.
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I am running Siemens-Deka 80s on a very mild NA setup, stock 302 displacement. Basically H/C/I and better exhaust. I am even tuning it myself (A9P with Decipha's A9L2 tune as a base) and the SD 80s are not an issue at all. Now, as I upgrade and go S/C in the near future, I don't need to worry about injectors.
It runs well with them at idle and cruise and gives you enough overhead to tweak injector timing if that is something you want to do (help eliminate the fuel smell at idle with larger overlap cams).
But make sure you get authentic Siemens-Deka, there are fakes out there that could give you issues.

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post #28 of 47 Old 04-24-2019, 09:28 AM Thread Starter
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Get a Pro-M EFI and fire your tuner... I canít believe people still pay tuners nowadays, read up over in the forum, make all the changes you want and youíll never need a start up tune or anyone to tune anything, PERIOD! System will pay for itself eventually.
I have ZERO intertest in learning that myself. I paid a price to have it tuned 6 years ago and never had to touch it since...so I am not learning a new language just for a one time thing.
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post #29 of 47 Old 04-24-2019, 09:31 AM Thread Starter
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I am running Siemens-Deka 80s on a very mild NA setup, stock 302 displacement. Basically H/C/I and better exhaust. I am even tuning it myself (A9P with Decipha's A9L2 tune as a base) and the SD 80s are not an issue at all. Now, as I upgrade and go S/C in the near future, I don't need to worry about injectors.
It runs well with them at idle and cruise and gives you enough overhead to tweak injector timing if that is something you want to do (help eliminate the fuel smell at idle with larger overlap cams).
But make sure you get authentic Siemens-Deka, there are fakes out there that could give you issues.

.

Mike (decipha) is apparently 1 hour away from me and I never heard of him before lol. I've already linked up with him and am buying injectors and a mass air from him and letting him tune. He did suggest a Ford Lightning mass air to me to save money over the pro-m, which I have never heard of doing, but from I am seeing the man knows his stuff so I'm gonna roll with it.

I am so glad you mentioned the fuel smell!!! mine is N/A until I make this swap but from day one i have ALWAYS had a very rough fuel smell at idle...it sticks to my clothes lol...and the tune is set pretty lean at idle which my A/F guage verifies. I'll have to ask Mike about this when I get the setup over to him.
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Quote:
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Mike (decipha) is apparently 1 hour away from me and I never heard of him before lol. I've already linked up with him and am buying injectors and a mass air from him and letting him tune. He did suggest a Ford Lightning mass air to me to save money over the pro-m, which I have never heard of doing, but from I am seeing the man knows his stuff so I'm gonna roll with it.

I am so glad you mentioned the fuel smell!!! mine is N/A until I make this swap but from day one i have ALWAYS had a very rough fuel smell at idle...it sticks to my clothes lol...and the tune is set pretty lean at idle which my A/F guage verifies. I'll have to ask Mike about this when I get the setup over to him.
The fuel smell can be caused by fuel entering the exhaust during the overlap period where the intake and exhaust are open at the same time. The injector timing can be adjusted to make sure fuel is only injected once the exhaust valve has closed. It is not so much an issue with a stock or very mild cam.
A larger injector that will have a very short pulse width at idle or low rpm gives you plenty of room to move the injector timing around.
My son put a B cam in his 89 notch and what he thought was a very rich idle was what I described above. The raw fuel in the exhaust can throw your AFR readings off as well, further complicating the problem.

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1990 Light Crystal Blue LX Convertible, TW170, Lunati 20350711, TMOSS GT40 Tubular, 3550 5-speed, 3.55 Gears
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post #31 of 47 Old 04-26-2019, 11:11 AM Thread Starter
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The fuel smell can be caused by fuel entering the exhaust during the overlap period where the intake and exhaust are open at the same time. The injector timing can be adjusted to make sure fuel is only injected once the exhaust valve has closed. It is not so much an issue with a stock or very mild cam.
A larger injector that will have a very short pulse width at idle or low rpm gives you plenty of room to move the injector timing around.
My son put a B cam in his 89 notch and what he thought was a very rich idle was what I described above. The raw fuel in the exhaust can throw your AFR readings off as well, further complicating the problem.

.
My cam is 232/240 degrees of duration at .050, and .565/.574-inch lift. Well...i'm on 30's now, and moving to 60LB. I'm sure Mike can help me out with all of this when I bring him my car to strap down to the dyno. Good info.
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post #32 of 47 Old 04-26-2019, 09:07 PM
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60's are plenty unless you really plan to use the capability of 80's in the future. 340 pump is fine as well. upgrade the the wiring tho. aftermarket rails are pointless with stock lines.

Stuff...
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post #33 of 47 Old 04-27-2019, 02:16 PM Thread Starter
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60's are plenty unless you really plan to use the capability of 80's in the future. 340 pump is fine as well. upgrade the the wiring tho. aftermarket rails are pointless with stock lines.
Upgrade the wiring? The unit uses the factory wiring, it did not require running new wires.
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post #34 of 47 Old 04-27-2019, 03:16 PM
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Upgrade the wiring? The unit uses the factory wiring, it did not require running new wires.

how much current does this pump draw?

how much current is the stock wiring rated for?

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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post #35 of 47 Old 04-29-2019, 12:14 PM Thread Starter
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how much current does this pump draw?

how much current is the stock wiring rated for?

My electrical skills are a little rusty, but I have 2 assumptions here. Maybe someone can correct me if 1 or both is wrong:

1. If the factory wiring could not provide the current needed, the pump would not run.
2. The pump is sold as a factory replacement drop in, seems like they would not sell it that way if other modifications were needed. The installation instructions mention nothing about the pump needing upgraded wiring.
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